need a better way to punch holes!

[leatheroo]

I am sick of punching holes for lacing. I use a rotating hole punch and i find this makes my hand very sore after about 50 holes!! I have tried using one of those hole punches that has four prongs that is used with a hammer but i cant find one that is spaced just right. I recently saw a photo of one of the members using a small hand held drill. Has anyone had much experience using one of these? It looks like a good idea, especially if the leather is thick and many holes are need. What would you put underneath to stop the drill going into your bench....the kitchen table in my house!!

thanks.

[Beaverslayer]

Leatheroo, I hear you load and clear about punching holes...LOL... I also saw that picture of the drill being used. I myself would never use such a method for the simple fact that there is a possibility that the leather may "catch" and go flinging out of your hand, and then spin wildly around the drill bit.

Are you just punching holes into veg tan leather, or is it also like garment leather?

I have a set of punches by Al Stohlman that I use, but I punch each hole individually. Some items like a vest have in excess of 800 holes. For my hats I use the same 4 prong punch that you have described, and a hat has about 260 holes.

There is a member here that had a custom made air opperated hole punch made for him by some people in the US, they made it and sent it to him without him even knowing about it. He had complained on a Biker Forum just like you are now, and some of them got together and did this for him.

His name here is Gremlin, and maybe if you sent him a PM, he would show you pics on how it was made. Just a tought, tell him I told you about the hole punch.

Ken

[Beaverslayer]

Leatheroo,

Check this out, I found the link to the pics he posted on the Biker Forum.

Hole Punch

Ken

[leatheroo]

Awesome air hole punch, i can only dream. A shed or garage to put it in would be nice too. The kitchen table gets a workout! Its not so much the table, but i have to get everything out and then put it all away and then repeat the process the next session. I have told my 13 year old son as soon as he moves out, his room becomes my workshop....probably in 10 years time..!!!

thanks guys.

[bruce johnson]

OK, This tip paid for my dues on another group years ago. People still are amazed at it. I astound those who come to my shop. I rarely hit a round punch anymore, even for one hole. I chuck a normal mini-punch or maxi-punch into a benchtop drill press. Sixty bucks for a basic at Harbor Freight, a hundred gets you a cool one at Sears/Orchard Supply. Put a piece of cutting board plastic on the table. Turn on, pull the handle. It effortlessly spins its way through the leather and backs out with equal ease. Even on thin goat or thick wet sticky skirting. It leaves the hole CLEAN on the bottom, and slightly burnishes the hole. With a keyless chuck, changes are a snap. These punches are also cheap enough you can have 2-3 of the common sizes set up, and then just change the whole punch handle/tube out. Don't have to worry about one handle and changing tubes. Some of the more high tech presses have laser crosshairs to line up on your registration marks, and a fence to set and keep the holes centered down a strap or edge.

Standard warning - WEAR eye protection. Once the tubes fill up, subsequent punchings are ejected in random directions. I find them in coffee cups, casing water, etc. Open mouth once when talking.

Edited October 23, 2007 by bruce johnson

[ghstrydr164]

Use burrs instead of drill bits; they will not grab the leather and twist it. If you need very small holes ask your Dentist for some used burrs, they will work fine for your purpose. A Dremal tool works well with the burrs also.

Cyrus

[Jordan]

that is a great tip. sittin here with and mini punch and a mallet in my hands, and there is a drill press on the other bench, dang, never connected the two in my head!

[DCKNIVES]

I have been using a drill press for years on my sheaths.I have a small Craftsman that is dedicated for leatherwork.I sharpen the shank side of various sizes of drill bits and mount them reversed in the chuck. Then while running I punch through, and nice clean holes.I also made up a table for my vise, that helps in moving the article being drilled around.It's made from aluminum plate and UHMW ( a slick plastic, similar to nylon). For doing my sheaths I use a piece of 1"x4" notched for the belt loop to keep the sheath flat for punching holes. Hope this helps.Dave

Here's a pic

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/DCK...pg?t=1193801115

[ghstrydr164]

The Leather Crafters & Saddlers Journal ran the results of a test (late 90s’?) on seam strength done with drilling as opposed to awl holes for hand stitching and the seams that were drilled were much stronger than seams formed with an awl.

[greg gomersall]

If I recall correctly the test you are refering to in the Journal was disproven because the people doing the test DID NOT angle their awl correctly thereby were encouraging the seam to be weak. comman sense will assure you that when hand sewn correctly using an awl your thread will hold the seam whereas when you are drilling or punching your hole you are removing material and there is nothing left for your thread to lock into. Learn to hand sew properly and your work will have a sleek clean professional look to it whereas using prepunched or drilled stitching holes will leave your work looking amateurish no matter how nice you tool it. Greg

[unicornwoman]

leatherroo: A shed or garage to put it in would be nice too. The kitchen table gets a workout! Its not so much the table, but i have to get everything out and then put it all away and then repeat the process the next session.>>>

Been there and done that. Whew! It really dampens the creative processes. Finally, got a work room added on last summer. Now the challenge is keeping the tables & desks CLEAR so I can put project on them. Seems like all the household paperwork/filing ends up there...

Bruce Johnson: Standard warning - WEAR eye protection. Once the tubes fill up, subsequent punchings are ejected in random directions. I find them in coffee cups, casing water, etc. Open mouth once when talking.>>

ROTLF!

[ghstrydr164]

greg

If you drill your hole the proper size you will have a better lock than with an awl punched hole. If you set up the seam correctly before you drill your holes your stitches will look much better than awl work by most people and as good as the best awl work. There are times to use an awl but only when a drill will not work. As far as the test goes lets look at some facts; if you slit a piece of leather through in the center and pull on it it will continue to tare along the cut, that's why we are taught to punch a hole at the ends of slits to lessen the tendency of the slit from tearing.

The second item that I ever sewed by hand and it will stand up to any awl work I have seen.

Cyrus

[electrathon]

The second item that I ever sewed by hand and it will stand up to any awl work I have seen.

Cyrus

Cyrus,

I am incredibly impressed with both your stitching and your tooling.

Aaron

[greg gomersall]

When you drill a hole you are actualy removing material,how is this type of stitch tighter. It takes time to learn how to hand sew properly but when you sew with an awl, you do not set the awl to run along your stitch line but diagonaly so that it will not tear. The Art of Handsewing by Al Stohlman is a good book for some one wanting to learn the correct way. If you are happy with drilling your holes that is fine, I don't care but some people want to elavate the level of thier work constantly and there are no shortcuts to excellance. Go back through your LCSJ issues and study the rebuttal Jeremiah Watt gave to the so called test on which method is best. There may not be a right way or a wrong way but there is a Traditional Way. Greg

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Cyrus,

I agree with Greg on this issue and sure hate to hear people quote that test... especially when the people conducting it didn't know how to hand sew properly. There is an important aspect that was overlooked in the test and that is the compression of the leather by an awl. As Greg mentioned, first the awl has to be used on the correct angle so that the point to point from hole to hole causes the stitch to pull on an angle. When an awl makes a hole it doesn't remove the material but instead compresses it making it more dense and harder. A drill bit has the opposite affect by removing material, leaving a hole with broken fibers around it's circumference; The leather will definitly be weaker. I have attached two photos of a good size to give you a close up of what handstitching should look like. You should be able to see that the holes made by the awl were made on an angle and that the stitches do no pull in a straight line. Instead they are pulling towards one side of the diamond shaped hole made and pulling on firm, compressed leather.

As Greg mentioned, people can do whatever they want with their goods, but it is simply incorrect to say that drilling holes is stronger than traditonal handsewing. Incidentally, do you have any pictures of handsewing done with a drill that was sewn with white thread? I'd be curious to see it next to the photos I have posted to compare the tightness of the thread through the hole. The reason this is important is that when you remove leather with a drill and create a hole that is slightly bigger than the thread, dirt will build up in that hole and the grit will wear on the thread. By using an awl, the memory of the leather will cause the leather to expand slightly after the awl is removed. This means the hole will tighten up even more around the thread which is obviously impossible when you remove leather with a drill.

Darc

[Peter Ellis]

Just to put this back on track.. Lacing holes - that's what this started with - Is the thonging/lacing chisel equivalent to making your holes with an awl ? Preference for whether the lacing hole should be a punched out hole or a pierced through slot ?

[Clay]

What a great topic. It is interesting to see different views on this.

Personaly I was taught to use an awl and I like it better than punching holes or drilling be it right, wrong, traditional or not. The thing to keep in mind with an awl is that it is like the swivel knife blade it has to be very sharp and smooth to work properly. An awl used off of the shelf is probably not sharp enough and may be the reason why people get discouraged with awls and make the user want to try other methods of making the holes.

As for lacing I prefer to use a lacing chisel for the same reason that was stated about using an awl, the leather is not removed, it is cut and compressed. It looks beter to me and it will also help prevent the lace from twisting as you are lacing the project.

Thanks for the informative topic!!!!

Clay M.

[Beaverslayer]

Even thought this is getting to be a very good topic, I have to return to the original that got this all started.

As to using a punch, drill, awl or burr, this would all depend on the material you are going to be lacing together. I have attached 3 pictures of lacing that was done on the vest that I have worn since the day I finished it almost 2 years ago. All the holes were punched using Al Stohlman punches. As I believe you will see from the photos that there would be no way to effectively drill holes through this material with a drill press, even if the punch was as sharp as possible.

The chances of the punch or drill catvhing and tearing to shreads as the vest twirled around the chuck is way to high to even attempt this.

This is the shoulder yolk with 3/32" holes and 1/4" lace. Yes you could use the drill and punch method on the carved yolk, but I would'nt use the awl or straight lace punch with using this type of lace.

This is the front edge and front pocket, again punched with 3/32" holes and laced with 1/4" lace. Using a smaller size hole than the lace, you obtaian the same expansion/contraction theory as the awl. As the lace is being pulled through the hole it expands, and once done the hole will contract onto the lace giving you a very clean look. As you can see, the hole is not visible once the lace is complete.

This is a picture of the backside of the edge, it also shows the inner pocket. Again you will see that there is no evidence of the round hole. As to the pocket, I don't believe you would be able to put holes in Pig Skin Suede with a drill and punch.

So, again, depending on what you are putting the holes into will determine the way you accomplish the task.

Hope this helps someone out there.

Ken

[ghstrydr164]

Darc

Very nice hand stitching no matter how it was accomplished.

I drill my holes small enough to require pulling the needles with pliers and that is very tight. Making a hole with an awl cuts or tears fiber and drilling a hole removes fiber. At best it seems that one over the other is a matter of choice and not a matter of one being superior to the other if both are done correctly. Al Stohlman extolled many beliefs that served him and Tandy and many see him as a mentor. I don't think to depart from his ways is wrong as I do not think tradition is a bad thing as long it is kept in prospective to the times we now operate in. I have no intention of doing leather work by an oil lamp unless I am forced to, traditional or not.

Cyrus

Edited November 1, 2007 by ghstrydr164

[greg gomersall]

Proper hand sewing goes back centuries before Al Stolhman. The gentleman I apprenticed under in the late 80's himself apprenticed under an old harness maker in the 40's. The very first thing he had Hank do was hand sew triple ply harness traces by hand. Hank asked why hand sew these when you have a sewing machine right there, The reply was "you have to learn to hand sew properly if your gonna be any use around here."

As for the times we now operate in, being efficent is the key to survival even when hand sewing. I have no idea how long it takes you to mark your spacings ,drill your holes and then sew your holster while reaching for your pliers each stitch but I would be fairly confident that either Darcy or myself could sew at 7 stitches per inch by hand using traditional methods and sew four holsters in the time you got through one. But what the heck I don't know squat anyhow. Greg

[ghstrydr164]

I don't sew for speed. If I wanted speed I have a new Tippman Boss purchased over ten years ago and still in the box. I don't sell my leather work; I do it for myself and for gifts so I don't need speed.

You're the one who extolled Al Stolhman not me and you are the one who claimed anything but the use of an awl in hand sewing looked amateurish and was inferior and only done for lack of skill and a willingness to learn.

Proper hand sewing does not need to be done with an awl. Traditional hand sewing needs to be done with an awl.

Cyrus

[unicornwoman]

Clay: Personaly I was taught to use an awl and I like it better than punching holes or drilling be it right, wrong, traditional or not. The thing to keep in mind with an awl is that it is like the swivel knife blade it has to be very sharp and smooth to work properly. An awl used off of the shelf is probably not sharp enough and may be the reason why people get discouraged with awls and make the user want to try other methods of making the holes.>>

The sharpness issue certainly has been a struggle for me and not just with awls. On x-actos or scalpels I'm getting the trick down, but I can't sharpen an awl worth anything...Do we have a thread on that?

[Rawhide]

The sharpness issue certainly has been a struggle for me and not just with awls. On x-actos or scalpels I'm getting the trick down, but I can't sharpen an awl worth anything...Do we have a thread on that?

There is a thread somewhere that has a link to an awl sharpening article. Do a search for it, maybe Johanna knows where it is.

Marlon

[leatheroo]

this has turned out to be a great topic and the replies have been great. My original post was complaining of hand pain from the hole punch and an awl gives the same problem. Time is also a factor and i have found that making quivers with the right stitching or spaced holes has no effect on the buyers or the price people are willing to pay, they just dont notice these details. It goes against the grain of good craftmanship, but i have to keep the time and cost limited in accordance to what i get paid for the quivers. They are just a source of side income and the owner of the website i make for, needs the price to be kept reasonable. I really am sick of making quivers this way, but i have agreed to do it. I think making the same item again and again has something to do with it.

[AKRob]

Use a drill press but cut the head off of a finish nail and chuck it up in the drill. I did this before I got a Boss worked well.

It does not remove much leather as much as it pushes it aside and burnishes the hole very strong, very simple.

I learned this technique in 8th grade shop, when we all made belt pouches for our Buck knives.

Rob

I hesitate to call myself a leather craftsman when I look at the work displayed on this thread.