What servo motor setup to get?

[Texxut]

I picked up a used, (well used by the looks of the ware on the table), a Consew 206RB-2 ,and am now looking to get a servo motor setup to power it.I will be sewing heavy fabrics, canvas, and leather. What motor do you guys recommend? Also, if you have any do's or do nots,  that would be good to hear . Thanks. 

[Wizcrafts]

I have been buying my servo motors from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines since 2011. In that time they have carried three major brands as previous models went of of production or became untrustworthy. Their current motor is the Consew CSM 550-1 It comes with a 2" pulley unless you request a larger pulley. Smaller pulleys slow down the machine and increase the low end torque.

I have found that these motors can often use your existing motor mounting bolts and pedal rods. There are slots to move the motor sideways to line up the new belt. Chances are that your old belt won't be a perfect fit. You can figure this out by trying to read the size marking on the old belt. It might be marked in inches or millimeters. Let's say the old belt is a type 3L at 44 inches and the old motor pulley is 4 inches diameter. If the servo motor happens to fit under the old bolts and has a 2 inch pulley, chances are the new belt will need to be 42 inches, plus or minus an inch..

As a reference, I ordered a new Consew 206RB-18 for a friend's school security window blinds business, pre-equipped with a servo motor identical to the Consew CSM, with a 50mm pulley. I sewed on the machine for a year as a side job. I could start it going at 1 stitch per second with a little foot finesse. There was enough oomph to keep it moving at slow speeds when tacking on 1 inch wide sew-on Velcro. When I needed to sew long end straightaways, I floored it and blasted through ballistic nylon (and sometimes Velcro) at about 25 stitches per second. Good motors! Great machines!!

[Texxut]

Thanks for the heads up.

[dikman]

There are quite a few different servos available on ebay (and Amazon?), most of them are pretty generic with the major difference usually being how the menus are accessed to change parameters. Wiz's recommendation is probably the safest as if you buy a "generic" off ebay you'll be on your own (other than possible help from here) if you have difficulties setting it up. For some of us it's just a minor challenge if that happens but there have been many requests for help from folks having trouble with the setup menu on their servo.

[Wizcrafts]

35 minutes ago, dikman said:

There are quite a few different servos available on ebay (and Amazon?), most of them are pretty generic with the major difference usually being how the menus are accessed to change parameters. Wiz's recommendation is probably the safest as if you buy a "generic" off ebay you'll be on your own (other than possible help from here) if you have difficulties setting it up. For some of us it's just a minor challenge if that happens but there have been many requests for help from folks having trouble with the setup menu on their servo.

The servo motor I linked to is analog, not digital. It has a simple knob to turn to limit the top speed. There is also a power switch in a separate box. The only other control is a direction slide switch on the back. It is normally shipped to the buyer rotating in the standard ccw direction for typical industrial sewing machines. All of mine have included extra brushes on coil springs in case the originals wear out from prolonged high speed use.

[nylonRigging]

last drive I got, This one I am pretty happy with . Japaneses brand, Nitron , NT-750 brushless servo , and with using a 'small' belt-pulley . very user friendly on the button controls also . Plenty of Punch power behind needle even crawling along slow .

https://www.amazon.ca/NITRON-NT-750W-3500RPM-Sewing-Machine/dp/B07SRH41Y8

-

Edited August 16, 2022 by nylonRigging

[Wyowally]

I have seen some comments on brushed vs. brushless servos but have no experience. Not sure what the true differences are in terms of super slow speed running vs. torque. Some say brushless is the only way to go, yet my brushed CSM550-1 does everything I want on a Singer 111W155 without needing a speed reducer. I did go with a smaller motor pulley. YMMV

[Wizcrafts]

I bought a used cylinder arm machine from the original owner in late 2019. It had a push button digital servo motor that started with a jolt, running at a minimum speed of 100 or 200 rpm. I ordered a Family Sew 550s the next day. It starts at zero and gradually speeds up as I engage the foot pedal. I have enough pushbuttons on my phone. I don't need more on my motors.

[bruce johnson]

Wiz, Thanks for the link to that servo motor. I just bought my wife a Singer 17-1 with a speed reducer and clutch motor. I can sew with it but I expect she will have some speed control issues. When I got my Ferdco 2000 several years ago it had an analog servo. Within 5 minutes of sewing with it I was on the phone ordering the same motor to go on my Adler 205. I like the smoothness, performance, and simplicity of the analog servos over the digitals and you saved time me from searching for another. Appreciate it! - Bruce

[Texxut]

I wanted to post an update to my question on servo motors. I ordered an Enduro 550 watt servo motor, replaced the pulley that came on it with a 1.7" pulley and mounted it on the table I made for the Consew 206RB-2. I really like the control I have with that setup. I made the table and legs from stuff in my shop materials pile. The top is 1-3/4"  thick and the frame is made from 2" angle iron. Probable a bit over built, but solid as a rock. I did add a drip pan. 

[dikman]

Looks good, and not overbuilt. On one table I had I screwed a piece of angle iron across the underside of the table as I felt the top wasn't stiff enough.

Looks like a target frame on the right of the table?

[Texxut]

I made some stand alone target holders and those are some of the frames I staple my targets to. I enjoy shooting as much as sewing, strange combination no?

[dikman]

Not strange at all. That's how I got into sewing (and industrial machines) I couldn't buy the holsters I wanted so made my own.

[crosscaddie]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:14 AM, Wyowally said:

I have seen some comments on brushed vs. brushless servos but have no experience. Not sure what the true differences are in terms of super slow speed running vs. torque. Some say brushless is the only way to go, yet my brushed CSM550-1 does everything I want on a Singer 111W155 without needing a speed reducer. I did go with a smaller motor pulley. YMMV

 

what size pulley did you change to. Don't they come with 2 " Pulley if you get 550 1 servo from Toledo Industrial Bob ? thanks, bill

[kgg]

54 minutes ago, crosscaddie said:

what size pulley did you change to.

A good way to check what to expect in speed change by replacing the size of motor pulley.

i) Checkout this site and just plug in the values at the top of the page.

Imperial Values:

https://www.blocklayer.com/pulley-belteng

Metric Values:

https://www.blocklayer.com/pulley-belt

ii) If you need / want a speed reducer pulley setup just go farther down the page.

Example:

Change size of motor pulley

1. Motor speed 100 rpm, hand-wheel pulley size  4", motor pulley 3". The hand-wheel pulley will turn at 75 rpm's

Change motor pulley down to a 2" and the hand-wheel will turn at 50 rpm's

So you get a 1/3 reduction in speed.

 

Install a speed reducer pulley:

Motor speed 100 rpm, hand-wheel pulley size  4", motor pulley 3". The hand-wheel pulley speed at 75 rpm's

Speed reducer pulley setup is either a single 6 " pulley and a single 2" pulley mounted a shaft or a 6" 2 step pulley that has a large 6" pulley and 2" pulley molded as one.

1. Leaving the original 3" motor pulley and the hand-wheel will turn at 25 rpm's

So you get a 70 percent reduction in speed by just installing a speed reducer pulley arrangement.

2. If you also change the size of the motor pulley down to a 2" the speed will be further reducer so the hand-wheel will turn at 17 rpm's.

The main question should be what is really a practical reduction in speed. 

I would be interested in knowing what the class 441 machines with a dealer supplied speed reducer installed actually get.

kgg

 

[Wyowally]

20 hours ago, crosscaddie said:

 

what size pulley did you change to. Don't they come with 2 " Pulley if you get 550 1 servo from Toledo Industrial Bob ? thanks, bill

45 mm. It takes a different belt of course. I measured carefully and guessed belt size with the counter guy at my auto parts store. Made a lucky guess. Pulley from AMZ.

[DonInReno]

8 hours ago, Wyowally said:

I measured carefully and guessed belt size with the counter guy at my auto parts store.

You are very lucky to be in an area where parts stores can find something without it being attached to a specific car model!   At our auto zone they literally are not able to understand the 3L belt sizes, not even the assistant manager - finally someone asked the store manager and he had to walk the person back and point to the number….the clerk was still very confused.   Now I just look up the store inventory online and show them the picture.   Lol

Our Napa has three sets of counter guys - guys in the back only work with commercial accounts and probably know more than average.  Then there’s the new guys that work weekends and evening shifts - they literally are no better than autozone.    The best guys have the best shifts and the walk in counter is less busy than the commercial accounts so they are up there - old timers that actually know what all the big books are behind the counter!

The guys at Napa in Lander, WY were great - finding odd bearings and seals was a fun challenge and they really taught me a lot every time one of the big binders came out :-)

[Wizcrafts]

I often find type 3L v-belts at my local Ace Hardware store. They seem to have almost everything a person could want.

[Mekanic]

• Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines: Speed Reducer (4:1)
• GoldStar Tool : 750w Servo
• MasterPro Belt: 7330  (15330) 3/8" x 33-3/4" OC

Speed is VERY controllable at stitch...added Needle Synchronizer also.

 

 

[dikman]

Is the needle synchroniser working ok? Some servo/synchronisers don't work when using a speed reducer.

[CowboyBob]

On 3/27/2023 at 2:22 PM, kgg said:

I would be interested in knowing what the class 441 machines with a dealer supplied speed reducer installed actually get.

We always use the 45mm & no one has ever complained they run too fast.LOL

Edited June 9, 2023 by CowboyBob

[Mekanic]

22 hours ago, dikman said:

Is the needle synchroniser working ok? Some servo/synchronisers don't work when using a speed reducer.

It's "consistent"...adds an additional stitch. Raises needle to UP when pedal is back-tapped.  I'm still learning/tweaking setup.

[Trox]

On 6/9/2023 at 11:49 PM, Mekanic said:

It's "consistent"...adds an additional stitch. Raises needle to UP when pedal is back-tapped.  I'm still learning/tweaking setup.

It's an option on all motors if you want the needle to stop down or up when you heel the pedal, it must be down. But you won't get this to stop where's supposed to with a speed reducer. It's bases on a 360° rotation with a belt direct to the machines pulley. Expensive position motor controllers can account for belt slippage, but no system will calculate for an extra belt and two pulleys. There aren't any motors that can do that. I've seen some have put the synchronizer head on the speed reducer instead of the machine handwheel. But still it will not be accurate. Luckily these motors will work without the syncro head. Expensive motor systems like Efka won't run without a synchronizer. But on Chinese cheap motors the syncro head is just a 15$ extra. Most of these systems aren't accurate anyway.  It's important that these systems are accurate, it has to stop at exactly the same place/degree of the revolution every time. It's when the needle has past it's lowest position and picked the bobbin thread. If it stops earlier and you raise the foot to turn your work a stitch will be skipped. To late and the needle is out of the work. I know the earliest Chinese designes wasn't any good, but they should have been able to figure this out by now. German motor brands have use this system since the 1970 ties. The problem is that accurate servo systems are expensive to make. Accurate speed controls too.  There are enough power in these motors, people put speed reducers on them to get better speed control.  With the price of the reducer and motor combined your not far from what a proper motor system costs.

[Sauls]

Thank you for those details @Trox  very helpful.  I’m debating in my mind if I need a speed reducer since I do prefer to have the needle position sensor active.  Just picked up a used Juki 1341 and starting to run a few test pieces, but so far I don’t think I need a reducer.     Enduro SM645-1P seems to be okay.  

[toxo]

On 6/9/2023 at 12:23 AM, dikman said:

Is the needle synchroniser working ok? Some servo/synchronisers don't work when using a speed reducer.

I was waiting for this question to come up. As you know I have big pulleys on two of my machines and the NPSs work fine but my new machine has a box style reducer and it the NPS won't work properly. It's not a rail crash because I can start and stop really slowly (and speed up in the middle) so with some practice I should be able to needle up/down without the NPS.

This did get me thinking and I wondered if anyone had tried putting the NPS directly on the motor pulley?