Justification for buying a real Durkopp-Adler.

[leerling]

I have been a lurker for a time. At the moment I use two second hand Adler machine’s. A 69-373 and a 267-373. But I’m now in for a heavy class machine. Is there a justification for spending twice the amount on a Durkopp-Adler 969 Pure then a Chinese clone like a Cowboy CB4500 ? I have no experience with a Chinese clone. 

 

[dikman]

If money isn't a problem then I guess it would be nice to own the Adler, but realistically there's nothing wrong with owning one of the brand-name clones and saving a bucket-load of money. There are many on here who own clones and in general have found them more than adequate.

[kgg]

3 hours ago, leerling said:

Is there a justification for spending twice the amount on a Durkopp-Adler 969 Pure then a Chinese clone like a Cowboy CB4500 ?

The cost on this side of the pond would run for an Durkopp-Adler 969 north of $9000 USD while a machine like the Cowboy CB4500 would be around $3000 USD. Also Durkopp-Adler is owned by a Chinese company, ShangGong Group who also own PFAFF. So the justification for not buying a Dürkopp Adler as I would see it:

i) There are a lot of dollars to be saved.

ii) Availability of parts which are much cheaper.

iii) Availability of accessories which are also much cheaper.

kgg

Edited April 8, 2023 by kgg

[Uwe]

If I were to get a DA 969, I’d definitely opt for the version with the built-in motor and jog dial capability. 

Reasons for buying the DA 969:

1. You actually NEED the capability of sewing 1.2” (30mm) thickness, or with thread thicker than TEX 415 (US). None of the 441 class machines will do that. 

2. You can take a free 2-day class on how to service the DA 969 at the DA facility in Bielefeld, Germany. I took that class a few years ago. Priceless.

3. You like your current Adlers because they are originals, not copies.

4. You realize that $10K today was $5K in the early 90’s, so it’s really the same price as a Durkopp Adler 205-370 when it came out. And the DA 969 has much higher specs than the 205.

5. You want to support companies that invest in innovation and develop new products, rather than just copying what others have created decades ago. Or companies that care a little more about the well being of their employees and the environment.

6. You can afford it and simply enjoy working with state of the art tools and machines.

 

Also, if you don’t need the capabilities of a 969,  consider buying an original Juki TSC-441. They’re still in production.

 

[kgg]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:28 AM, leerling said:

But I’m now in for a heavy class machine.

1 hour ago, Uwe said:

Also, if you don’t need the capabilities of a 969,  consider buying an original Juki TSC-441. They’re still in production.

It is a shame that there are no industrial lockstitch sewing machines made in North America that I know of.

For the hobbyist and small leather businesses the bottom line is "dollars do matter" which leaves most people (particularly the hobbyist) with two options, purchasing a used machine or a clone. I really like the Juki line of machines but it must be noted that not every Juki is made in Japan so ask before buying. I do have a China made Juki and in my option it is not the quality of the one made in Japan. I looked for three years for a used Juki TSC-441 and could not find one that wasn't bet to death probably because most are used in a commercial environment. This left only a couple options: i) suck it up and cough up the 10k to buy a new one or ii) purchase a clone. I finally broke down and bought a 441 clone.

kgg

[leerling]

Spare  parts is a thing of concern. From where I live, at a 30 minute drive there is a large distributor  with 15.000 different parts Durkopp / Pfaff in stock. Even for my 50 year old DA69 they still have spares.  I have no idea were I would be able to get spare parts for a  Chinese copy.  Exempt from ebay and being surprised after two months what will arrive.

Edited April 9, 2023 by leerling

[leerling]

4 hours ago, Uwe said:

If I were to get a DA 969, I’d definitely opt for the version with the built-in motor and jog dial capability. 

 

 

I’m a sucker for things I can look at and understand. With electronics my brain stays blank when looking at it. I have  no talent at all in that department. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by leerling

[Constabulary]

College Sewing or Trojan Sewing in the UK are quite good sources for parts for certain Chinese / Japanese / Taiwanese made machines. But since BREXIT importing things from the UK became more expensive.

[chrisash]

Uwe stated "You actually NEED the capability of sewing 1.2” (30mm) thickness, or with thread thicker than TEX 415 (US)"

It's hard to imagine the need for that size requirement in either thread or thickness

[leerling]

The DA969 can be used with needles 120 to 300. In my opinion a machines optimal performance will be somewhere in the middle. Hence around needle 200-250 and 3/4 to 1 inch thickness. And that is my intended use. I think the Cowboy 4500 has on paper compatible specs. But for example looking at the complex tension setup of the DA969 it would be imaginable that it is has less problems with left twisted threads.  Overall I like to have a machine that does what I want it to do and not have to put-up a fight.

Edited April 11, 2023 by leerling

[leerling]

On 4/9/2023 at 2:40 PM, Uwe said:

Also, if you don’t need the capabilities of a 969,  consider buying an original Juki TSC-441. They’re still in production.

 

I tryed without succes to find a respectable  Juki dealer in a range of 200km from where I live.

[Constabulary]

Maybe worth checking with Global Sewing Machines and see what they have. They are NL based (Haarlem) and also have used 441 machines as it seems:

https://globalsew.com/product/juki-tsh-411-normal-new/

Or maybe SIECK in Germany:

http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/sewing/saddlery-sail-maker-heavy-duty-materials/arm-type-machines/?produkt=6832

EDIT:
Looks like the Global Juki 441 are just drop feed - anyway - maybe worth checking with them.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Constabulary

[Garyak]

That’s a decision I made as soon as I saw the 969, the second I’m in a position to do so, I’ll be getting one myself. My votes on Adler. 

[leerling]

1 hour ago, Constabulary said:

Or maybe SIECK in Germany:

http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/sewing/saddlery-sail-maker-heavy-duty-materials/arm-type-machines/?produkt=6832

I have mailed with Sieck. They are located in Bayreuth (Germany) but there outside stock seems to be 700 km south from Bayreuth. About 1400km from where I live. So looking in real life at the machine is not a option for me.  And in the same mail they write (sorry we had to recalculate the price.)

[shoepatcher]

Weaver 205 clone an option.  I have sewn on one.   90% as good as the original.  I have a genuine 205 with toys.  969 Pure is a great machine.  You buy the best you only cry once!

glenn