CB3200 & Class 26 comparison

[TNboy]

I'm trying to locate a thread comparing these two machines as I'm in the market of my first sewing machine. I hate to ask the question as I know it's probably been asked 100x, but I can't find anything in my searching.

The majority of my items sewn are belts, gunslings, guitar straps, and bags. Mostly vegtan with liner.

Thanks in advance.

[AlZilla]

You'll do no better than looking here:

https://www.tolindsewmach.com/cowboy.html

And here:

https://leathermachineco.com/product/cobra-class-26/

Edited May 2, 2023 by AlZilla

[kgg]

53 minutes ago, TNboy said:

The majority of my items sewn are belts, gunslings, guitar straps, and bags. Mostly vegtan with liner.

In my opion the Cobra class 26 ($2390 US) is a Class 1341 machine using 135 x 16 needles capable of using V207 thread while the Cowboy 3200 is short arm (10.5") Class 441 using the much larger 794 needles capable of using V346 thread. The cost of a Cowboy CB3200 decked out like the Cobra class 26 would be ($2195 + $150 extra for a pedestal table stand = $2345 US). I would place the Cobra in the upholstery plus class of machines and the Cowboy in the saddlery class of machines.

kgg

[TNboy]

Thanks! Going with the 3200

[TomE]

41 minutes ago, TNboy said:

Thanks! Going with the 3200

I was going to recommend the Class 26 for the projects you mentioned, which I would guess will be 12 oz or thinner leather.   The Class 26 would allow you to use smaller needles, threads, and stitch lengths that might be a good match for your projects.  A 441 type machine will punch through thick leather but it also creates bigger needle holes (which limit how fine you can sew) and the thicker thread makes it harder to hide the knots in thin leather.  I use a Class 26 with #138 thread for a lot of medium to light weight projects.  I keep my Class 4 loaded with 277/207 thread and sew projects that are mostly 2-3 layers of 8-10 oz leather. There's a lot of information on this forum for "dumbing down" the 441 machines with accessories and changed parameters in order to sew lighter projects, but the Class 26 is in its natural element for 5-20 oz leather.  

I just noticed you're interested in learning about knife sheaths, which might require the 441 machine particularly if your sheath has a welt.

Edited May 3, 2023 by TomE

[kgg]

9 hours ago, TNboy said:

Thanks! Going with the 3200

Since this is going to be your first machine I would suggest going to a dealer and see which class of machine would best suit your needs. If you are going to be doing 90 percent of items best suited for the Class 1341 machine then buy a Class 1341 and later on get a Class 441.

8 hours ago, TomE said:

There's a lot of information on this forum for "dumbing down" the 441 machines with accessories and changed parameters in order to sew lighter projects, but the Class 26 is in its natural element for 5-20 oz leather.  

As @TomE has outlined for thinner projects you have to make changes or install the presser feet and needle plates like what @RockyAussie and @Patrick1 have developed to accommodate sewing with thinner thread, closer to the edge and with thinner leather.

kgg

[Jayrnz01]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:12 PM, kgg said:

Since this is going to be your first machine I would suggest going to a dealer and see which class of machine would best suit your needs. If you are going to be doing 90 percent of items best suited for the Class 1341 machine then buy a Class 1341 and later on get a Class 441.

As @TomE has outlined for thinner projects you have to make changes or install the presser feet and needle plates like what @RockyAussie and @Patrick1 have developed to accommodate sewing with thinner thread, closer to the edge and with thinner leather.

kgg

Hi, can you confirm @RockyAussie is still selling smaller needle plates?

 

I'm currently trying to decide between a cb341 and a cb3200, which is very similar to this thread, most of my work is in the 341 zone, but I worry about not being able use thicker thread and to do wider the times I will need it. RockyAussies' solution seems to push the cb3200 to the flexibility needed.

Though I'd love to be able to make some curtains for my home and wonder if it's possible on the cb3200 even with the smaller plate etc.

[dikman]

Curtains on a 441-class machine? Now THAT would be a good trick!

[kgg]

29 minutes ago, Jayrnz01 said:

Hi, can you confirm @RockyAussie is still selling smaller needle plates?

I would drop @RockyAussie a PM (private email).

33 minutes ago, Jayrnz01 said:

I'm currently trying to decide between a cb341 and a cb3200,

The problem you have is that you are right on the crossover point both in thread size and thickness of material. As far as doing curtains I am going to say it would be easier to do on a 341 class machine a feat to do on a 441 machine. The needles of the class 441 are going to be a lot thicker then the 135X17 needles. I think neither machine would be the right machine for a curtain type project. I would suggest picking up an old Singer Class 15 machine or a Juki 1181N walking foot machine for those types of projects.

The problem with the Class 341, typically rated to sew 3/8" thick stuff, as I see it is that some clones suggest they can use V207 thread for both top and in the bobbin whereas Juki rates their machine (LS-341old / LS-1341 new) to sew with V138 at max thickness for top and bobbin thread.

So if you want to use greater then V207 in thick items you need to move up to the Class 441 machines which use the much thicker 7x3 or 794 needles. Your problem then becomes do you get a stub nose cylinder arm 10.5" CB3200 typically rated to sew 1/2" thick stuff, a stub nose cylinder arm 9" CB3500 typically rated to sew 7/8" thick stuff or a standard cylinder arm 16" CB4500 typically rated to sew 7/8" thick stuff. The cost difference between those machines:

i) CB3200 at $2200 USD,

ii) CB3500 at $2700 USD,

iii) CB4500 at $3000 USD.

iv) CB341 will run about $2400 USD. 

All I can say is If you need or want a Class 441 machine for whatever reason and can afford it opt for the standard 16" cylinder arm. Before I bought my Class 441 I even looked at the one armed bandits but quickly decided they weren't for me. When I bought my Class 441 and I have a Class 341 as well I opted for the standard 16" cylinder arm. Also don't forget to take into account the style of table that would suit your typical sewing position, seating versus standing.

kgg

 

 

[JLSleather]

You're right around that line, thickness wise, where its' heavy for the one and light for the other.  I'd personally go with the 3200, but CALL BOB.  He'll be able ta tell ya what ya need an why.  Some examples are shown below, with short explanation, but seriously - if you read around here you'd think there are TWO types of machines for leather (SO not true).  So - call BOB KOVAR or see his web site at this link - he'll put ya right.

I can say that I make many of the same things, and that 3200 (which I do not own) lookin purdy sweet.  I do have machines much like it, and I sew all but wallet-weight leather without too much trouble..  Lemme see ...

 

 Two layers of 7 oz, sewn on machine very much like the 3200. Oh, and the ostrich leather is about 1-1/2 oz, and sews to the 7 oz cowhide easily with the 3200. 

   Zipper gusset 4/5 oz leather sewn on machine like the class  26.  

Gusset then sewn to 7/8 oz back using machine much like the 3200.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wallet liner sewn on singer 188, then assembled and sewn on class 26 "type" machine.

Edited September 25, 2023 by JLSleather

[Jayrnz01]

5 hours ago, dikman said:

Curtains on a 441-class machine? Now THAT would be a good trick!

I don't know much about sewing machines but I'm trying to learn, I spent a lot of last week reading through the posts on here, I usually use reddit so had to make an account to commen

[Jayrnz01]

4 hours ago, kgg said:

I would drop @RockyAussie a PM (private email).

The problem you have is that you are right on the crossover point both in thread size and thickness of material. As far as doing curtains I am going to say it would be easier to do on a 341 class machine a feat to do on a 441 machine. The needles of the class 441 are going to be a lot thicker then the 135X17 needles. I think neither machine would be the right machine for a curtain type project. I would suggest picking up an old Singer Class 15 machine or a Juki 1181N walking foot machine for those types of projects.

The problem with the Class 341, typically rated to sew 3/8" thick stuff, as I see it is that some clones suggest they can use V207 thread for both top and in the bobbin whereas Juki rates their machine (LS-341old / LS-1341 new) to sew with V138 at max thickness for top and bobbin thread.

So if you want to use greater then V207 in thick items you need to move up to the Class 441 machines which use the much thicker 7x3 or 794 needles. Your problem then becomes do you get a stub nose cylinder arm 10.5" CB3200 typically rated to sew 1/2" thick stuff, a stub nose cylinder arm 9" CB3500 typically rated to sew 7/8" thick stuff or a standard cylinder arm 16" CB4500 typically rated to sew 7/8" thick stuff. The cost difference between those machines:

i) CB3200 at $2200 USD,

ii) CB3500 at $2700 USD,

iii) CB4500 at $3000 USD.

iv) CB341 will run about $2400 USD. 

All I can say is If you need or want a Class 441 machine for whatever reason and can afford it opt for the standard 16" cylinder arm. Before I bought my Class 441 I even looked at the one armed bandits but quickly decided they weren't for me. When I bought my Class 441 and I have a Class 341 as well I opted for the standard 16" cylinder arm. Also don't forget to take into account the style of table that would suit your typical sewing position, seating versus standing.

kgg

 

 

Yes I made an account so I could PM him yesterday but he hasn't seen it yet.

I need to make the decision this week, I've switched between the two several times in my head.

Price wise I have the option of the cb341 or the cb3200, I can't afford to stretch up to the cb4500 and the local distributor doesn't have the cb3500 (I'm not in the US) I also don't think I get a choice in table which is unfortunate as space wise the pedestal would be better for me.

I'm scared I will either get a machine that doesn't do enough being the cb341 especially with the smaller thread,  or a machine that will be to much being the cb3200 but with the rockAussie reduced plate thing.

The plate sounds like it could make the 3200 viable and the wizard detuning post but I'm not knowledgable enough to really know.

I've spoken to the local distributor on the phone who said the cb341 would have an easier learning curve but the cb3200 would eventually be ok, that was before I found out about rockAussies small plate which seems to solve the issue.

But then I didn't know or think about hiding the Knotts of the thicker thread so there is that.

I have been hand sewing and using a 0.8mm thread which is thicker than the cb3200 can do, so the cb3200 at 0.6mm max thick seems like a good level to me.

 

I will be sewing (I'm used to mm so am googling and trying to convert)

Bag, cross body, Totes, simple smaller bags. 4mm or more at the seams and (9-12oz maybe )

Id like to make Leather and canvas back packs.

Belts, ideal near 4mm  leather so (9oz) 12 or more at the buckle 

Dog collars and leads the same as thickness as belts.

My wallets would be 6oz at the thinnest (1mm + 2mm) 

Cousin covers.

Valet trays, key rings, I'd like to try knife sheaths but haven't made them and have started making shoes for a hobby.

The sneakers I made were hand sewn with 0.8mm ritza tiger thread. 

The boots thinner thread on a machine that couldn't handle a thread with I would have liked to have used.

I'd also like to give some Reupholstery a go on my couch and my old car.

From the local distributor he thought this sounded more like the cb341, but said it doesn't have smooth teeth and again the thread thickness seems to thin to me.

I'll be ordering the flat table attachment to go with it regardless of which model I get.

A real conundrum.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Jayrnz01

[Jayrnz01]

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

You're right around that line, thickness wise, where its' heavy for the one and light for the other.  I'd personally go with the 3200, but CALL BOB.  He'll be able ta tell ya what ya need an why.  Some examples are shown below, with short explanation, but seriously - if you read around here you'd think there are TWO types of machines for leather (SO not true).  So - call BOB KOVAR or see his web site at this link - he'll put ya right.

I can say that I make many of the same things, and that 3200 (which I do not own) lookin purdy sweet.  I do have machines much like it, and I sew all but wallet-weight leather without too much trouble..  Lemme see ...

 

 Two layers of 7 oz, sewn on machine very much like the 3200. Oh, and the ostrich leather is about 1-1/2 oz, and sews to the 7 oz cowhide easily with the 3200. 

   Zipper gusset 4/5 oz leather sewn on machine like the class  26.  

Gusset then sewn to 7/8 oz back using machine much like the 3200.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wallet liner sewn on singer 188, then assembled and sewn on class 26 "type" machine.

Thansk for the reply, I'm not in the US, but have had a chat to my local distributor. 

Lovely work.

 

[dikman]

18 hours ago, Jayrnz01 said:

I don't know much about sewing machines but I'm trying to learn, I spent a lot of last week reading through the posts on here, I usually use reddit so had to make an account to commen

No worries, mate, we all have to start somewhere. I've always thought that the 3200 seemed like a very nice machine, and with Rocky's needle plate setup could probably do most things (curtains excluded ). In my case there was little cost difference - I bought the head unit only and fitted my own motor and table - so went the whole hog and bought the 4500. The limiting factor with using lighter thread on the 4500 is finding a suitably sized needle, but as I have other suitable machines it's not an issue for me, getting down to #138 is more than enough.

[Jayrnz01]

16 minutes ago, dikman said:

No worries, mate, we all have to start somewhere. I've always thought that the 3200 seemed like a very nice machine, and with Rocky's needle plate setup could probably do most things (curtains excluded ). In my case there was little cost difference - I bought the head unit only and fitted my own motor and table - so went the whole hog and bought the 4500. The limiting factor with using lighter thread on the 4500 is finding a suitably sized needle, but as I have other suitable machines it's not an issue for me, getting down to #138 is more than enough.

What size threads would you estimate these to be?

[Jayrnz01]

Thread 90, needle 10 (from the manufacturer)

[Northmount]

Moved to leather sewing machines