441 clone

[caperseven]

Is this ok?

Have he&p kit and a new 23 cutting needle and  not bent.

As you can se the needle is off to left and not centered.

Even the feet are a little bit off, the inner touches the outer one and i can adjust the dog a little bit with shims.

JB

 

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, caperseven said:

Is this ok?

Have he&p kit and a new 23 cutting needle and  not bent.

As you can se the needle is off to left and not centered.

No, that alignment is not right. Was the needle centered with the original feed dog and throat plate?

What brand is the sewing machine?

FYI: I have this narrow feed dog on my Cowboy CB4500 and my needle goes dead center through the slot in the feed dog.

[purplefox66]

All you have to do is loosen the screw and turn the inner foot center then tighten the screw.

i was wrong disregard 

Edited August 13, 2023 by purplefox66

[caperseven]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

No, that alignment is not right. Was the needle centered with the original feed dog and throat plate?

What brand is the sewing machine?

FYI: I have this narrow feed dog on my Cowboy CB4500 and my needle goes dead center through the slot in the feed dog.

Original feeddog and throatplate plate was not exactly centered..

Its a brand new jianglong 441 clone.

I have a metal workshop and are able but i need advice about if its possible to 

do anything about this problem.

 

[Wizcrafts]

35 minutes ago, caperseven said:

Original feeddog and throatplate plate was not exactly centered..

Its a brand new jianglong 441 clone.

I have a metal workshop and are able but i need advice about if its possible to 

do anything about this problem.

Your machine was poorly constructed. Your only hope would be to move the entire needle bar and both presser bars to the right. It is doable, but not painless. I would think about returning, or selling it, and buying a Cowboy CB4500, or actual Juki TSC-441, if they are available in Sweden. But, keep the narrow plate and feed dog.

[kgg]

2 hours ago, caperseven said:

Original feeddog and throatplate plate was not exactly centered.

Another possibility, be it unlikely, is that the needle bar (part #  210-92002) got bent somehow or the needle stopper (part #  210-92408) was installed cross threaded. If you got the machine from a dealer or directly from Jianglong I would send photo's with the original presser feet and needle plate re installed and request a replacement of the machine or at least their suggestions / procedure on correcting the problem.

kgg

[RockyAussie]

Looks like the center walking foot and needle bar may be both be too far to the left. They are all in one block together and I am sure you can adjust the whole lot a little to the right. Look at the machine head in front of the needle bar and you will see a screw bolt that is slightly slotted and above that in a hole is a locking screw which needs to be undone first. I would take the side cover off and have a good look at the whole lot first. If the needle bar or its clamp were out of line it would show up pretty easy by loosening the needle bar and turning it around while watching the needle.

[caperseven]

7 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Looks like the center walking foot and needle bar may be both be too far to the left. They are all in one block together and I am sure you can adjust the whole lot a little to the right. Look at the machine head in front of the needle bar and you will see a screw bolt that is slightly slotted and above that in a hole is a locking screw which needs to be undone first. I would take the side cover off and have a good look at the whole lot first. If the needle bar or its clamp were out of line it would show up pretty easy by loosening the needle bar and turning it around while watching the needle.

i take a look after work, updates follows.

11 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Your machine was poorly constructed. Your only hope would be to move the entire needle bar and both presser bars to the right. It is doable, but not painless. I would think about returning, or selling it, and buying a Cowboy CB4500, or actual Juki TSC-441, if they are available in Sweden. But, keep the narrow plate and feed dog.

thanks for input.

juki441 costs 7000$ over here so...

[RockyAussie]

I forgot to say there is a screw on the back of the head that may need to be loosened as well. This post link should show a diagram that may help you better -

 

[Tim Schroeder]

Simple fix. The diagram is in the thread RockyAussie is quoting.   When you loosen set screw #31 it allows you to push part #30 over either way if you needed to. Once you move the needle bar over you will be able to straighten up the center walking foot. 

[caperseven]

4 hours ago, Tim Schroeder said:

Simple fix. The diagram is in the thread RockyAussie is quoting.   When you loosen set screw #31 it allows you to push part #30 over either way if you needed to. Once you move the needle bar over you will be able to straighten up the center walking foot. 

Looks like this

[caperseven]

2 hours ago, caperseven said:

Looks like this

Now it looks better and everything is cleared and not touching anything.

Going to try sewing tomorrow so..

Thanks .

[Cumberland Highpower]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:28 AM, caperseven said:

i take a look after work, updates follows.

thanks for input.

juki441 costs 7000$ over here so...

I think the best price I've seen on a new setup 2/table and motor here in the States is around $6400....So you're at least not being overcharged based on locality?

[caperseven]

The knots i close to top of leather, im not sure wich adjuster thats lower or rises it , the upper one or the low one?

What does the lower one do?

Manual is not clear about this.

Jb

[CowboyBob]

Looks like one thickness of leather try sewing at least 2 or more & see what happens.

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, caperseven said:

The knots i close to top of leather, im not sure wich adjuster thats lower or rises it , the upper one or the low one?

The top disks are your primary tension adjusters. The lower roller adds or subtracts a little tension. This roller was more effective in the distant past when the leather stitchers had liquid or melted wax in pots that the top thread ran through. Nowadays, with lubricated, bonded thread, the bottom roller does very little until you get into very large sizes of thread. It adds friction, rather than pinching the thread, as the top disks do.

Those holes look way too big for the thread you are using. Try a size smaller needle. If the knots are still visible, add bobbin tension, or subtract top tension. If the knots are still a problem, move down one thread size in the bobbin.

The needle holes are round. Are you using round point needles? You should use leather point needles in veg-tan leather. Schmetz sells them in System 794, as "S" point. They have an inline slicing point that actually partially submerges the ends of the stitches.

[kgg]

5 hours ago, caperseven said:

The knots i close to top of leather, im not sure wich adjuster thats lower or rises it , the upper one or the low one?

Looking at your machine threading photo's:

i. The top tensioner is threaded like the Juki TSC-441 manual indicates, Section 12, page 6 of the attached manual.

ii. The lower tensioner appears to be thread incorrectly but that maybe just the angle of the photo. It appears you just loop around the disc rather then making a full turn around the disc before going through the take-up spring. Check to see if you have it threaded like the Juki TSC-441 manual indicates, Section 12, page 6 of the attached manual.

If the bobbin tension is too low and the bobbin thread is too close to the top of the material then you need to adjust the Bobbin tension, Section 14, page 7 of the attached manual. But, but....

i) the material needs to be thick enough to do this. Either double up the leather or try sewing two layers together.

ii) the thread combination needs to match the size of needle. A good thread to needle combination chart can be found curiosity of @CowboyBob at ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html )

iii) both the top thread and to bobbin thread should be the same size but sometimes there are reasons the bobbin thread is smaller then the top thread. 

There is a topic on showing the different variations of threading the 441 class machines.

 

tsn_421_tsc_441_instruction_2k.pdf

[caperseven]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

The top disks are your primary tension adjusters. The lower roller adds or subtracts a little tension. This roller was more effective in the distant past when the leather stitchers had liquid or melted wax in pots that the top thread ran through. Nowadays, with lubricated, bonded thread, the bottom roller does very little until you get into very large sizes of thread. It adds friction, rather than pinching the thread, as the top disks do.

Those holes look way too big for the thread you are using. Try a size smaller needle. If the knots are still visible, add bobbin tension, or subtract top tension. If the knots are still a problem, move down one thread size in the bobbin.

The needle holes are round. Are you using round point needles? You should use leather point needles in veg-tan leather. Schmetz sells them in System 794, as "S" point. They have an inline slicing point that actually partially submerges the ends of the stitches.

I use #23 needle  ,Diamond point leather needle by smetz and #207 bonded nylon thread both in bobbin and upper.

Just testing with 8oz leather, maby to thin.

[caperseven]

53 minutes ago, kgg said:

Looking at your machine threading photo's:

i. The top tensioner is threaded like the Juki TSC-441 manual indicates, Section 12, page 6 of the attached manual.

ii. The lower tensioner appears to be thread incorrectly but that maybe just the angle of the photo. It appears you just loop around the disc rather then making a full turn around the disc before going through the take-up spring. Check to see if you have it threaded like the Juki TSC-441 manual indicates, Section 12, page 6 of the attached manual.

If the bobbin tension is too low and the bobbin thread is too close to the top of the material then you need to adjust the Bobbin tension, Section 14, page 7 of the attached manual. But, but....

i) the material needs to be thick enough to do this. Either double up the leather or try sewing two layers together.

ii) the thread combination needs to match the size of needle. A good thread to needle combination chart can be found curiosity of @CowboyBob at ( https://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html )

iii) both the top thread and to bobbin thread should be the same size but sometimes there are reasons the bobbin thread is smaller then the top thread. 

There is a topic on showing the different variations of threading the 441 class machines.

 

tsn_421_tsc_441_instruction_2k.pdf 3.01 MB · 0 downloads

The lower tension is correct , a 1 1/2 turn then upp to takeup spring, the photo angle not showing full turn. I threaded as Juki TSC-441 manual indicates, Section 12, page 6 of the attached manual.

Im not sure how much tension there should be in bobbin,any tips how you measure that?

I suspect i have to little tension on bobbin and i just use a 8oz leather, it might be better as u say with 2 pieces.(thicker).

Im trying your tips tomorrov,updates follows.

[kgg]

4 hours ago, caperseven said:

Im not sure how much tension there should be in bobbin,any tips how you measure that?

Tension is a real battle between the top thread and the bobbin thread sort of like a tug of war. Here is a couple video's that should help.

kgg

 

 

 

[Tim Schroeder]

 Going thru the bottom eyelet before wrapping around disc 1 1/2 times creates upper thread tension you can't get rid of. I looked up every manufacturer I could find, and Cobra is the only one who goes thru the eyelet before going around the disc. It is OK on bigger thread and needles but will never let you loosen the top tension enough to sew on the lighter end capabilities of this machine. You don't need another piece of leather. 

 Don't go thru the bottom eyelet before going around the disc 1 1/2 times and tighten the bottom tension. 

I would still move the last thread guide to the inside of the faceplate. 

[caperseven]

1 minute ago, Tim Schroeder said:

 Going thru the bottom eyelet before wrapping around disc 1 1/2 times creates upper thread tension you can't get rid of. I looked up every manufacturer I could find, and Cobra is the only one who goes thru the eyelet before going around the disc. It is OK on bigger thread and needles but will never let you loosen the top tension enough to sew on the lighter end capabilities of this machine. You don't need another piece of leather. 

 Don't go thru the bottom eyelet before going around the disc 1 1/2 times and tighten the bottom tension. 

I would still move the last thread guide to the inside of the faceplate. 

Ive just thought of that to, and just what you say i couldnt get rid of upper tension no matter what i did, loosen the knob so much i nearly come loose..

The lastthread guide is almost inside but you mean even further in?

Thanks for help, im going down to my workshop and test your tips.

[Tim Schroeder]

Here you can the path of the thread with last thread guide in the 3 different positions. I have found videos on YouTube where they would skip the last thread guide completely. 

[caperseven]

it looks like the middle option is better one due to a straighter way/ less angle to needle bar

for the thread,

[Tim Schroeder]

Thats where Cobra puts there's. Yes I put mine there as well. It's mounted on the #24 bolt.  I had to use some needle nose to open up the hole a little to get the #24 bolt thru it.