Leather Holsters and Striker Fired Pistols

[Gosut]

A short while ago, I had the opportunity to shoot a Glock. That had me thinking about holsters for that type. What gives me pause is the safety is built into the trigger. That has me thinking a holster must be ridged and completely cover the trigger area, as well has have good retention (strap or otherwise). There's a certain incident that made the rounds of an accidental discharge where the top of the holster folded over and caught the trigger. Obviously, the leather can't be that soft,. But is leather for a striker fired pistol holster just not a good idea? Is there some way to eliminate risks?

For instance, is "boiled leather" for a holster an option, or would it soften over time and exposure to sweat and the elements? Is there a way to form and incorporate a rigid metal support for the opening of the holster? Is there some other way entirely?

Just curious.

[Mablung]

Just make it like one ordinarily would, using a good leather, treating it properly, ensuring the leather is adequately dense, not oiling the crap out of it so that it becomes soft, and paying attention to when it degrades to the point it needs to be replaced.

I've carried a firearm nearly every day for almost ten years, much of my time spent with striker-fired guns, in both Kydex and leather, and I'm convinced the accidents people attribute squarely to leather holsters are the result of user error and improper maintenance.

[Hags]

Going to stick my neck out here. Maybe not striker fired, but you get the point.  I have made several holsters for striker fired weapons, my own included. You can make a holster that has very good trigger protection and retention.  Some say a reinforcing piece is not needed. I agree, but I like them to add a bit of rigidity and a place for tooling and contrast.  I also would add, it would be very difficult for this to cause an inadvertent trigger pull. I get most of my retention from the trigger guard on the back of the holster and a bit from the ejection port.  The guns literally click when they seat. Add the tension of the belt and wearing the holster,  you have to "mean it" when you want to draw the weapon. As far as "boiled leather", I think of Roman leather armor. Might have been a thing, but my wet molded holsters are very rigid and hard. Hope this helps.

[chuck123wapati]

Leather works fine. Here's a Glock 43x holster i just finished. i took a different approach than Hags not that it matters. Mine fits the pistol so it  slides in and out easily but is tight enough to not move in the holster and wear the finish. I feel i want my pistol to come out easily and fast if i need it.  My retention is the strap as you can see. The trigger should be covered so you don't accidently stick your finger on it while pulling it from the holster. I use 10 oz. wet molded and no stiffener they get very hard and have never had a problems with any of the weapons I've made this style holster for. I cant see the top of my holster even fitting inside the trigger guard to cause a discharge.  Having a worn or ill fitting holster that causes a discharge is the owners fault making sure you are safe goes farther than just checking your pistol that is how you eliminate risks. 

[Dwight]

I know not everyone will agree with me . . . but there is a 100% cure for the OP's question.

Buy real guns . . . not those striker fired imitation plastic fantastic boondoggles.

But again . . . MY opinion . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

[chuck123wapati]

12 minutes ago, Dwight said:

I know not everyone will agree with me . . . but there is a 100% cure for the OP's question.

Buy real guns . . . not those striker fired imitation plastic fantastic boondoggles.

But again . . . MY opinion . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

lol I agreed with you until I fired one the other day. They are fun as all get out and I think have finally gotten most of the bugs worked out. But your right they will never be a 1911.

Years ago my wife fixed my mind so I can change it.

God bless you too Pastor

[fredk]

educate me; what is a 'striker fired pistol' ?

[chuck123wapati]

3 minutes ago, fredk said:

educate me; what is a 'striker fired pistol' ?

it is a different action that does the same thing (hits the firing pin) as a hammer in the firearm. A hammer fired weapon is like a1911 for while a striker fired has an internal striker system with no hammer, its a simpler and lighter mechanism.

[fredk]

thanks

[Gosut]

The trigger pull is also a lot less in a striker fired handgun, or at least it was in the Glock I shot. The stiffest I've encountered is in double action revolvers. These are revolvers that rotate the cylinder and cocks the firearm and fires when you simply pull the trigger. This revolver also worked single-action. This is when you pull back on the hammer with your thumb, which also rotates the cylinder, then pull the trigger to fire. Single action in that revolver had a lower pull than double action, but the pull on the Glock was less than both.

My firearm knowledge is limited, but I haven't encountered a revolver with a safety. That's a button or small lever you have to push or slide to enable the firearm to fire. Some semi-automatic pistols have safeties. The Glock safety is built into the trigger, hence my concern. Not trying to start a safety / no safety debate. The take-away on safeties on pistols is if the lack of one makes the shooter uncomfortable, then the shooter shouldn't buy a pistol that doesn't have one.

FWIW, I liked shooting that Glock,  so it's really just a holster question with me. The holsters that day were Kydex (tm) and a leather pancake. I didn't have a chance to to examine the leather one.

[Mablung]

I've carried and shot all three major actions in semi-auto pistols (1911, striker, DA/SA). My usual carry for the last number of months has been my DA/SA CZ 75 P01 Omega, which I adore. My other carry gun is a souped-up Glock 19. The manual of arms differences mean one must do some "muscle memory" reps to revive the appropriate reflexes, when switching from one to the other, but that's easy. 

The same rules for holstering safely and holster design and maintenance are the same no matter what, though. 

We wanna really get the gun people going, we can always debate the virtues versus vices of appendix carry. 

[chiefjason]

You are overthinking it.  The main issue with striker fired guns is that the USER needs to be familiar with the operation and what to pay attention to.  Oddly, you should pay attention to a lot of those details with a gun that has a safety, but the safety can just let you get away with some mistakes if it's engaged.  How you holster.  How you draw.  Where the trigger finger goes.  All that is important.  Just more so with a striker fired gun.  

 

As to trigger pull, you have just not shot enough guns.  My SA CZ 75b trigger pull is about half, or less what my Glock 19 is.  Reset is nearly non existent.  And take up is incredibly short.  You can actually do more work to a SA trigger than you can a striker fired gun.  I've got about $120 in parts in the trigger and it is SWEEEEEET!!!  

Also, with revolvers it is nearly impossible to fire one in a holster.  The cylinder would be very difficult to impossible to rotate to get it to fire while holstered.  

 

To some of your thoughts above.  Stiff leather, yes.  Covered, yes to the trigger.  You can have some of the trigger guard rear of the trigger exposed and it's sometimes necessary to clear a good grip on the gun.  Strap?  Unnecessary for CC IMO.  I lovingly refer to thumb breaks as suicide straps.  A well fitted holster will not allow the gun to come out.  The holster that's made its way around the net, I bet it was treated with too much oil and got soft.  But I have seen makers use leather that is thin enough to make me nervous.  I use at least 8 oz veg tan on all but my pocket holsters.  

[chuck123wapati]

I agree with the chief your over thinking triggers. But there are things to think about.

On triggers, there are many many triggers better than an off the shelf Glock but that is unimportant. The important part is keeping your finger off of it until you intend to shoot and practicing that during your training sessions.  The type of action doesn't mean much you pull the trigger the weapon fires the round bottom line. I have a Colt 44 magnum revolver  that has about half or less the trigger pull of a Glock in double action it so scary smooth that I don't even keep it loaded unless shooting it or hunting(its not a home defense weapon its to dangerous). But the quality of your weapon or trigger again isn't the key. Matching your weapon to the job its intended for and practice until you can use for that job are the critical factors.

On safeties, they can fail don't rely on them. The trigger safety on a Glock and most pistols with this feature for example is a tiny piece of plastic that hangs up on the trigger guard you can see it behind the trigger if you put on your bifocals and i imagine you could squeeze the trigger hard enough to break it and fire the weapon. If you do intend to carry a firearm cocked and loaded with the safety on then you must practice with the weapon until you can without thinking to disengage the safety while pulling out your firearm. I will offer this insight that is very hard to do. My personal opinion is if you need a gun cocked and ready to shoot then you don't need or want the safety at that time, if you don't need the gun in ready to fire mode then unload the thing. Common sense and thinking about your environment plays out a bit here, do you live in a place where you need your weapon cocked and loaded all the time? Or just when you go to the bank or walk to work? That is what you train to.

On holsters. Remember the fbi agent who lost his cocked and ready to fire pistol while dancing in a disco? He probably could have used a suicide strap at that moment. That's an example of how environment plays a  roll on how you carry your firearm and where, and what holster type. My environment for example is mostly out of doors and very active so i build and use a strap on my holsters so I don't lose my pistol in some muddy ditch which is much more likely than being attacked by a crack head unexpectedly while fishing. On the occasion I go to a store or the bank or somewhere my hackles raise i simply unsnap my strap and cock my weapon before hand. If i were to live on 2nd street in Denver I would probably carry my pistol hidden cocked and ready in my hand in my coat pocket lol but you get my drift, iwb , owb, cc, shoulder holster strap no strap, kydex or leather each has its pros and cons in any given set of variables. Your body type also plays a roll, you may love an appendix carry or iwb because everyone on the net says its the bees knees but if your 5'6" and 350 lbs then you probably couldn't find your Glock micro under your belly roll or love handles in time to save you fat lil butt from danger. Common sense!! Build and or buy what you need and works for you in the environment you intend to use it, not what some youtube expert says you need. Then the bottom line is, especially as a new gun owner, always practice at least an hour a day with what you have the way you intend to use it in the holster you intend to use. Creating muscle memory for such life saving situations only happens one way you cant throw in a safety once in a while or a different carry option on Sundays and expect to differentiate that without thinking under the stress of a life altering drama.  K.I.S.S. and practice!!!! 

Off my soap box now lol good luck and enjoy your endeavor.

[JLSleather]

you didn't mention WHICH glock, but I had a guy send me a pic of teh G43 holster I made him like 6 years ago, still carries it every day.  

[Gosut]

8 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Off my soap box now lol good luck and enjoy your endeavor.

Not really a soap box and all good info. FWIW, grew up keeping the finger outside the trigger guard until ready to fire. Walking around with the finger inside the trigger guard is an accident waiting to happen.

[Gosut]

31 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

you didn't mention WHICH glock, but I had a guy send me a pic of teh G43 holster I made him like 6 years ago, still carries it every day.  

I don't remember the model, if I even noticed. Only know that it was a Glock and had the type of safety that runs down the middle of the trigger.

[Mablung]

18 hours ago, Gosut said:

I don't remember the model, if I even noticed. Only know that it was a Glock and had the type of safety that runs down the middle of the trigger.

If it's the same story I've seen, it was a Glock 19 (Gen 3, if I recall correctly); arguably the most prolific double-stack carry gun.

The main thing about handling firearms is to not be stupid.  Or, as I like to say and a law school friend of mine turned into a favorite aphorism through our frequent use: "Be thou not a dipstick."  The same thing goes for holster design and maintenance.

On 12/10/2023 at 9:26 AM, chuck123wapati said:

Your body type also plays a roll, you may love an appendix carry or iwb because everyone on the net says its the bees knees but if your 5'6" and 350 lbs then you probably couldn't find your Glock micro under your belly roll or love handles in time to save you fat lil butt from danger. Common sense!! Build and or buy what you need and works for you in the environment you intend to use it, not what some youtube expert says you need.

Imagining someone with that build trying to carry AIWB is painful...

[RickHodges]

Stiff leather will not help the situation when the cause is clothing getting into the trigger guard and depressing the trigger when holstering.  The user has to be aware of the potential and take great pains to make sure a shirt tail or jacket hem doesn't enter the trigger guard.  With the clothing inside the guard the firearm will discharge as it is seated into the holster.  It is a real problem with Inside Waistband holsters.

Edited December 14, 2023 by RickHodges

[Mablung]

42 minutes ago, RickHodges said:

Stiff leather will not help the situation when the cause is clothing getting into the trigger guard and depressing the trigger when holstering.  The user has to be aware of the potential and take great pains to make sure a shirt tail or jacket hem doesn't enter the trigger guard.  With the clothing inside the guard the firearm will discharge as it is seated into the holster.  It is a real problem with Inside Waistband holsters.

That's a risk of using an IWB holster generally.  The specific concern here, however, is with ensuring the leather retains its structural integrity so that the holster itself does not collapse and cause an accidental discharge.  One should always look while holstering with an IWB holster of any material, but using insufficiently-rigid leather can cause additional problems.

[Red Bear Haraldsson]

https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

This is the 'story' if memory serves... it has made the rounds on the internet so many times that it is the first SIX pictures if you search for 'leather holster accidental discharge.'

Glad to see familiar faces still here!

[RabbyTat]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:09 PM, Gosut said:

Is there a way to form and incorporate a rigid metal support for the opening of the holster? Is there some other way entirely?

I see this is an old thread, but wanted to add a few thoughts for any holster projects out there.

Good questions. As you see, the cheap Jakslide holster involved in that photo is infamous for causing unintended discharges. Its thin leather flexes badly at the critical top of the holster and is dangerous for single action or "safe action" firearms during the re-holster process.

I owned and discarded a Jakslide decades ago because I saw this dangerous tendency on my own.

There are ways to safely counter this issue through better holster design. For instance. one of my favorite makers, Milt Sparks uses a metal band at the top of the holster to stiffen and prevent sagging for re-holstering. They are outstanding holster makers. Others have used thick or laminated layers for stiffening this area. I used a very stiff contrasting leather in the photo of one of my IWB carry holsters for that purpose. Glued and stitched. 

The entire trigger should be covered while holstered.

But be aware that items such as jacket draw string toggles can follow your gun into the holster as you lean forward to replace your gun and activate a trigger. This can happen with any gun, but is particularly a concern with single action or striker (safe action) guns due to the lesser trigger pull needed to cause them to fire. 

Even greater concern exists from the trend to appendix carry which orients the gun toward the lower extremities. I suggest that people remove the holster and place the gun in it and then put the holster back on the belt rather than putting it straight back in the holster while mounted and oriented toward critical body parts. You might consider this when designing a holster which might be used in this condition.  

[Dwight]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:26 AM, chuck123wapati said:

..........Common sense!! Build and or buy what you need and works for you in the environment you intend to use it, not what some youtube expert says you need.

That is why I am presently carrying a Springfield 3 inch barreled 1911 in .45ACP . . . If I laid it on a table . . . most gun guys would think it is an EMP . . . it just looks like one.

9mm modern ammo will expand to basically 1/2inch . . . (.19 square inches)  putting a hurt on the bad guy.

Modern 45ACP ammo will expand to almost 1 inch . . . (.78 square inches) putting 4 times the hurt on the bad guy.

I carried a P365 for a while . . . couple different Shield's . . . Ruger p89 . . . Taurus G3C . . . never, never felt secure and comfortable with them.

This little baby does the trick.

But as Chuck said  . . . get what is best for you . . . I like this one . . . and it will never find a home in a plastic fantastic holster.  Leather all the way . . . or Mexican carry at certain times.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Stetson912]

Well, it's my thinking that if the gun is functioning properly, you have to really design the holster for it to unintentionally fire. That is, if the holster is molded to the gun, even with heavy molding in the trigger guard, the rest of the molding will prevent the gun from moving downward in the holster causing it to unintentionally discharge. You would have to have really deep molding in the trigger guard and push the gun through the stitches to cause it to fire. And that's just not feasible and would suggest a peoblem with the operator not the holster

[Mablung]

8 hours ago, RabbyTat said:

Even greater concern exists from the trend to appendix carry which orients the gun toward the lower extremities. I suggest that people remove the holster and place the gun in it and then put the holster back on the belt rather than putting it straight back in the holster while mounted and oriented toward critical body parts. You might consider this when designing a holster which might be used in this condition.  

This is a nothingburger, if one uses decent leather molded well and of the right temper and thickness. In other words, make the holster properly and you’re fine. It’s also a lot harder to shoot oneself in either the family jewels or the femoral artery than many think. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, but it’s not the imminent risk it’s made out to be. Don’t be an idiot when reholstering, and it’s perfectly safe to reholster with the pistol still in the pants, regardless of the pistol’s action.