DIY leather conditioner

[deboardp]

3 hours ago, dikman said:

As you already have some of this pork leaf fat might I suggest you render it down and store it at room temperature to see how long it lasts?

Why would I want to store it at room temperature?? And why are you asking me to do this instead of answering my valid observation and question to you, that stuffed leather doesn't have air inside it? That stored fat in the fridge or freezer is different from fats inside leather due to the absence of air? What do you think of that?

I'm planning to render the pork leaf fat in the oven but I need to buy a crock pot. I guess I will try the recipe that Oz Black posted here years ago, which includes beef tallow, Beeswax, pork lard, and lanolin. When my skinny knives arrive, for cutting out the corners of my strap slots, I'll finish the sandals for my feet and stuff the leathers with the concoction. I'll see what all the fuss is about. Neither the tallow nor the lard now smell, but the wax and the Lanolin definitely smell positively nice. I'll add just a bit of macadamia nut oil, so it's a softer paste. 

@fredk ten years! It should be noted that both tallow and lard can be made from either leaf fat, which is the white fat that surrounds the kidneys of cow and pig, or from the fat attached to skeletal muscle and skin. 

With the advances in chemistry of fossil fuels, maybe it's time for me to consider possibly using some of those fossil fuel byproducts. How is it even possible that in 2023 leather workers don't have definitive answers to the question of what is the best leather conditioner for sandals??? 

Edited January 9 by deboardp
My phone is stupid

[ScottWolf]

On 1/6/2024 at 3:01 PM, AlZilla said:

I quit trying to follow this lengthy back and forth but I'll suggest looking at Blackrock's Leather N' Rich rather than DIYing it:

https://www.amazon.com/BLACKROCK-LEATHER-CLEANER-WITH-COND/dp/B008NB5QC0/ref=psdc_15718541_t1_B0846TH772

I don't know exactly what's in it and I'm not interested in defending it. It just works for me. YMMV.

Some information that may be of  interest on this product, seeing how it also applies to the topic of this thread. As with a good deal of commercially available leather conditioning products that people use/swear by, it has mineral oil in it. However, its not used for its solvent properties, as it is in some products. In this one, it is actually 12-16% Mineral Oil with 45% of the product being water and the remaining percentages of ingredients as listed below.It's also worth noting that this product has a strong chemical smell to it, similar to what Simply Green smells like.  But the real eye opener ingredient is the Ethylene Glycol (anti freeze).

It's pretty safe to say that if one is making their own leather conditioners with tallows, beeswax, Lanolin, oils, etc, that it's going to have higher percentages of actual conditioning ingredients than most commercially available products that aren't sold as all natural.

The MSDS for it can be found here. https://www.springfieldleather.com/sds-sheets/Blackrock Conditioner/Blackrock.pdf

 

SECTION 2 - Composition/Information on Ingredients
Ingredients (Specific)              %               CAS#
Carnauba Wax                         6.96          8015-86-9
Mineral Oil                                 12.8-16      64741-44-2
Ethylene Glycol                         11.6            107-21-1
Fatty Acids                                6.4-9.6       68604-75-1
Water                                         45.38          7732-18-5
Hydrogentated tallow alkyl    4.06            68201-30-9
Butoxyethanol 2-                     2.24-3.2       111-76-2
Propanol 2                                 1.6-3.2        67-63-0
Poly(oxy-1,2-ethanediyl)          <1                 34398-01-1

[deboardp]

14 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

it is actually 12-16% Mineral Oil with 45% of the product being water

I won't use mineral oil in my conditioner because it is occlusive - it traps water in leather, which makes the leather rot. 

[fredk]

Many, many oils are 'occlusive'; Lanolin, bees wax, NFO . . . 

Rather than 'locking in' the water and causing leather to rot an 'occlusive' limits the airflow allowing moisture to be released slowly, keeping the leather from completely drying out

[SUP]

@fredk, true. A good leather conditioner therefore does not really require a host of ingredients. A couple will do the job, since most are multi-functional. 

 

 

[deboardp]

25 minutes ago, SUP said:

@fredk, true. A good leather conditioner therefore does not really require a host of ingredients. A couple will do the job, since most are multi-functional. 

 

 

It's no wonder that people seem to use what works for them and stay out of the discussion of what is the best conditioner. It's not possible for an acceptable consensus to be made! Personally, my cognitive and memory functions are far too compromised for me to figure out, for example, what are the basic guiding principles for choosing the ingredients for my leather conditioner. Does leather need to breathe? Does it need to be watered? Does it need to be lubricated? I think if someone makes a stand on any of those questions and says yes it does, or no it doesn't, someone else will immediately say the opposite. 

Edited January 9 by deboardp
My phone disagrees with me

[SUP]

@deboardp, exactly! 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, deboardp said:

 Does it need to be watered? Does it need to be lubricated? I think if someone makes a stand on any of those questions and says yes it does, or no it doesn't, someone else will immediately say the opposite. 

Depends on its use also and where it used and is also another reason why no one can agree. A working saddle in Arizona isn't conditioned the same as a pair of hunting boots in Canada. we  often comment without regard to other variables but only on what we know works for what we make where we make it. Here in Wyoming a piece of leather could lay out on the prairie for 100 years, I have found such old shoe parts while metal detecting. While a piece of  leather in Louisiana may deteriorate in a few months due to the different climate, humidity, molds and such.

[SUP]

@chuck123wapati   exactly, as well! 

So many variables in the equation.

[dikman]

21 hours ago, deboardp said:

Why would I want to store it at room temperature?? And why are you asking me to do this instead of answering my valid observation and question to you, that stuffed leather doesn't have air inside it? That stored fat in the fridge or freezer is different from fats inside leather due to the absence of air? What do you think of that?

 

 You were talking about the use of pork fat in the past to treat leather and it would have been stored at room temperature so to me that is the criteria to use for determining its suitability - what is its shelf life? If it can be stored indefinitely at room temperature then adding it to leather shouldn't cause any problems. However, everything I have read so far about rendered pork fat says it has a limited shelf life but fred's experience suggests otherwise (albeit fred's is in the fridge, not at room temperature).

By asking you to do it, why not? You have the pork fat so your experience with it would provide all of us with valuable first-hand information, no different to what others do on here when trying something out. As to whether "stuffed leather" has air in it, I have no idea as it seems pretty irrelevant to me. I don't understand why you appear to be attacking me over this, if you want to use pork fat on your leather that's your business it doesn't bother me, I'm merely pointing out that what I've read so far about rendered pork fat gives me cause for concern about using it to treat leather. 

[ScottWolf]

9 hours ago, deboardp said:

" what are the basic guiding principles for choosing the ingredients for my leather conditioner. "

I think if someone makes a stand on any of those questions and says yes it does, or no it doesn't, someone else will immediately say the opposite. 

I believe only you can answer this question. In my leather conditioner recipe thread I started with using certain products/ingredients and avoiding others. That was my baseline starting point for seeing which ingredients and the combos of them that worked. As you read through the thread, you will see I later used some of the ingredients I initially avoided to further refine and or prove/disprove the effectiveness of their use in a leather conditioning product(meaning a concoction of several ingredients like beeswax, oils,etc, not the ingredient by itself). Each combo of ingredients has its own performance characteristics on the type of leather it is used on that can be observed. Certain ingredients are known to darken leather significantly, others to a lesser extent. If you want to darken the leather, then using those ingredients would suit your use case and visa versa if you don't want to darken the leather. Through experimenting with different ingredients, you will answer your own question. Or, you can go out and buy and try all the different commercial products until you find one you like, which is what most people do. Lastly, if you know of a commercial product that works for you, you can always search for the MSDS for that product and get the breakdown of ingredients used and recreate it yourself, minus the parts you don't want to use and or increase the amount of an ingredient you want to use more of.

 

"Welcome to the internet, someone will be along shortly to disagree with you." is a phrase that holds true, no matter the subject matter. When it comes to leather work, it's no different, especially when some old guy in 1892 wrote down in a book that he used ingredient X ,because that's all they had at the time, so now it's considered gospel that cannot be questioned or a more suitable modern ingredient used in its place. One can slather just about anything on leather, but the old saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"  should be kept in mind, even in this day and age.

[deboardp]

1 hour ago, dikman said:

You were talking about the use of pork fat in the past to treat leather and it would have been stored at room temperature so to me that is the criteria to use for determining its suitability - what is its shelf life? If it can be stored indefinitely at room temperature then adding it to leather shouldn't cause any problems. However, everything I have read so far about rendered pork fat says it has a limited shelf life but fred's experience suggests otherwise (albeit fred's is in the fridge, not at room temperature).

 

dikman, first I apologize for being undiplomatic with my response.

To explain, I responded to what you said by noting the difference between pork lard being out in the elements, exposed to heat and light, and pork lard being in a container refrigerated. I pointed out that the former is exposed to air, and the latter, not so much, but still exposed to air somewhat. I assumed you knew that oxidation is one of the factors involved in the deterioration of leather, but it seems I am wrong, because you said it is irrelevant. (I just read an article that says that there are two main factors involved in the degradation of leather: oxidation and hydrolysis. Both processes dismantle the chemical and physical bonds of the collagen fibers of leather.) To me, my question seems relevant. Do conditioners minimize oxidation (and hydrolysis) of leather? If so, which ingredients do it better than others? Is there a best combination?

I don't see anything wrong with this question. To me, it seems to be basic. I want my custom leather sandals to last for decades, not years. I also want the straps and the topsole to be pliable, form to the feet, resist degradation. I want my conditioner to essentially prepare them for life on someone's feet.

So when you suggested I watch my pork lard in a tin can at room temperature for an indefinite amount of time, well, it was offensive. To me, It was offensive. Probably nobody else would be offended by having a reasonable question ignored, but I am always offended a little when someone ignores my question. Not knowing you, and not wanting folks here to think poorly of me, I should have answered diplomatically, after I cooled off a bit. I apologize, I'm a bit uncouth. 

I don't know how to get to the second half of  your comment without losing this, so I'll submit this and go back and submit for the second half.

Editing now. You said,

"By asking you to do it, why not? You have the pork fat so your experience with it would provide all of us with valuable first-hand information, no different to what others do on here when trying something out. As to whether "stuffed leather" has air in it, I have no idea as it seems pretty irrelevant to me. I don't understand why you appear to be attacking me over this, if you want to use pork fat on your leather that's your business it doesn't bother me, I'm merely pointing out that what I've read so far about rendered pork fat gives me cause for concern about using it to treat leather. "

Now that I'm cool, I see your point. It's a good one. I also now share this concern. If it goes rancid in a can (protected from air) at room temperature, what will it do in a body-heated pair of sandals? Will it stink them up? I'm now leaning toward my plan B recipe of lanolin, beeswax, and macadamia nut oil, because there's no connection to recently deceased animals. The sheep doesn't die when its lanolin is harvested, and it's sitting happily in a pail in the corner of my shop, on the floor behind the sewing machine. If I have wasted money by buying tallow and lard, that's fine. I'm learning in the process of trying to think through all the information I've been exposed to. (I can't say ...all the information I've gathered... because almost nothing sticks.) Thankfully, the basic principles seems to stick, sometimes. 

Edited January 10 by deboardp

[deboardp]

I hope the IT fellow can clean up the mess above. I don't dare try.

[Mablung]

To be honest, @deboardp, I think you might be slightly overcomplicating the oxidation issue with animal lards/tallows.  I have bacon grease, which I haven't rendered into lard, sitting on my stovetop all the time, because I cook with it.  I have never had any issues with it oxidizing, and I have it sitting out all the time.  If the sandals smell, it will assuredly be because of sweaty feet, not oxidizing lard stuffed into the fibers, if I were to guess.  Something like these sandals will need regular, if not necessarily frequent, reconditioning, so I don't think you need to worry about it to much.

That said, it sounds like you have a good recipe going that doesn't rely on it.  But I would doubt you have much to worry about.

[dikman]

7 hours ago, deboardp said:

I hope the IT fellow can clean up the mess above. I don't dare try.

Macadamia oil - all the references I've found about it refer to using it in cooking (apparently very good for you and a high burning point) BUT they also say to keep it refrigerated and mention it eventually turning rancid, so it may not be what you're looking for. I have a couple of Macadamia trees and thought it might be worth extracting the oil but it looks like a lot of work so I don't think I'll bother (the only way I can crack the nuts is in a metal-working vise so it's a very labour-intensive and tedious job, and I keep eating them as I crack them!). So far the only animal fats that I'm aware of that store well and don't turn rancid are beef and sheep fat, rendered to tallow (and maybe deer fat?). These have been around for a very long time, and along with beeswax are tried and proven for treating leather.

Just something to think about.

[Wepster]

This may have been mentioned earlier, this thread has a lot of words, BUT, using nut oils maybe problematic for any one who has a nut allergy. Perhaps the soles of feet are callused enough that the allergens won't be an issue. I do not know, I am not a physician, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

I, personally, since my nut allergy has landed me in the emergency room on multiple occasions, would not touch any thing treated with even a small amount of a tree nut oil (my particular allergy, some are affected by peanuts).

[fredk]

Excellent point. I'm not being facetious when I say we may now have to put allergy warnings on our goods. I'd rather put a tag with a warning then be responsible for putting someone in hospital

[deboardp]

Just for the record, i didn't stay at the Holiday Inn last night either. Haha. 

So I'll cook with the macadamia nut oil, leave it out of my conditioner recipe. That leaves the beeswax and the Lanolin, and if it needs to be thinned I can reheat and use several drops of NFO. I have 2 quarts of the stuff, pure NFO, not the compound. @chuck123wapati  uses it, so that's good enough for me. 

I don't know how much beeswax to use, or why it is used in a stuffing recipe, and apparently I'll never know why, but if the sandals look nice, smell nice, are a pleasure to handle, then I resolve to be happy about it. (Well, and if people want a pair!)

I could use the tallow, too, and I will ruminate on that thought. 

Edited January 10 by deboardp

[SUP]

Beeswax is used most often because it is a good water repellent. Besides, it does not soften very easily in the heat. Lanolin, tallow, etc. all go soft  or liquify when it is hot and  could be messy but when mixed in with beeswax, that does not happen.  Just conjecture on my part though.

 

Edited January 10 by SUP

[chuck123wapati]

15 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

I believe only you can answer this question. In my leather conditioner recipe thread I started with using certain products/ingredients and avoiding others. That was my baseline starting point for seeing which ingredients and the combos of them that worked. As you read through the thread, you will see I later used some of the ingredients I initially avoided to further refine and or prove/disprove the effectiveness of their use in a leather conditioning product(meaning a concoction of several ingredients like beeswax, oils,etc, not the ingredient by itself). Each combo of ingredients has its own performance characteristics on the type of leather it is used on that can be observed. Certain ingredients are known to darken leather significantly, others to a lesser extent. If you want to darken the leather, then using those ingredients would suit your use case and visa versa if you don't want to darken the leather. Through experimenting with different ingredients, you will answer your own question. Or, you can go out and buy and try all the different commercial products until you find one you like, which is what most people do. Lastly, if you know of a commercial product that works for you, you can always search for the MSDS for that product and get the breakdown of ingredients used and recreate it yourself, minus the parts you don't want to use and or increase the amount of an ingredient you want to use more of.

 

"Welcome to the internet, someone will be along shortly to disagree with you." is a phrase that holds true, no matter the subject matter. When it comes to leather work, it's no different, especially when some old guy in 1892 wrote down in a book that he used ingredient X ,because that's all they had at the time, so now it's considered gospel that cannot be questioned or a more suitable modern ingredient used in its place. One can slather just about anything on leather, but the old saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"  should be kept in mind, even in this day and age.

I agree with your first statement.

People tend to disagree with personal opinion, vague descriptions, misconception or misrepresentation. Facts are undeniable, the up side to disagreement is science depends on it. Its called peer review.

Dubbin has been used for centuries. you call it conditioner. it was made from tallow , beeswax, and fish or animal oil. It was produced as a commercial product as early as the 18th century.

 I'll demonstrate a misconception you made, here is a short list of old guys from 1892 who wrote books. https://www.thefamouspeople.com/19th-century-scientists.php They had everything in 1892 you have now to make leather conditioner except maybe a few synthetic oils of which I see none mentioned in this thread. Obviously people of that era also had the intellect and scientific knowledge to make it. 

 

[Wepster]

I see there are a few references here to jojoba oil. I just saw a wood finish made with beeswax and jojoba oil.

And Christopher Schwarz, and reasonable well know woodworker sells a finish he calls soft wax, beeswax, raw linseed oil (not "boiled" that has metal driers in it) and a bit of citrus based solvent.  Ment for wood of course, but does not sound like there is anything that would be bad for leather. Just that there is probably more wax than would be desired.

[deboardp]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

Dubbin has been used for centuries. you call it conditioner. it was made from tallow , beeswax, and fish or animal oil. It was produced as a commercial product as early as the 18th century.

I have a box of tins of dubbin! 

[dikman]

Sup, my sheep tallow doesn't go particularly soft in hot weather (we occasionally reach 40*C plus, more often it's in the high 30's) it has quite a high melting point, but lanolin, of course, does soften significantly.

deboardp, I don't think you can go far wrong using combinations of beeswax, lanolin, nfo and maybe a decent tallow, they're all tried and proven for using on leather. The tricky part with using beeswax is finding something to thin it down sufficiently to make a soft paste (and without going rancid ). You'll find that most of the commercial products use mineral oil as the thinning agent primarily, I suspect, because it's cheap and is stable.

[SUP]

@@dikman I'll take your word for it.   I've still to receive the tallow I've ordered.  I guess beeswax is included for its water repellent properties then. 

 I'm trying to find inert lipids to apply on my leathers - beeswax is one such, as are carnauba wax and lanolin. "Organic" in layman's terms too! 

 

[ScottWolf]

10 hours ago, deboardp said:

 

I don't know how much beeswax to use, or why it is used in a stuffing recipe, and apparently I'll never know why, but if the sandals look nice, smell nice, are a pleasure to handle, then I resolve to be happy about it. (Well, and if people want a pair!)

I could use the tallow, too, and I will ruminate on that thought. 

Again, see my recipe post on how to make leather conditioner, it has ratios of each product and how to modify it if you want a more solid product, a balm or a cream. As for the "stuffing" you mentioned, I am assuming you are referring to hot stuffing,? This is done at the tannery during the tanning process, you are wanting to make a leather conditioner to be applied to finished leather if I understand you correctly. Hot Stuffing is defined by Horween as:

Hot Stuffed: Hot stuffing is the traditional second step in the re-tanning process for leathers that are not fat liquored or wet stuffed. Unrefined fats and oils, that are solid at room temperature, are utilized to deeply nourish and condition the fibers of the hide.  The fats and oils are pounded into the skins via tumbling in heated barrels, without the use of water and emulsifiers. The use of these fats and oils gives the leather a much richer feel. Hot stuffed leathers typically exhibit pull-up, good water resistance and excellent durability over time." Here is the link because someone will undoubtedly want to refute this https://www.horween.com/glossary

You are on the right track with using beeswax, Lanolin and Tallow(beef). I make that exact recipe using the tallow from South Chicago packing and it works great for conditioning a piece of leather. You can also get this same product from Colorado leather balm if you want to try it out before you make it yourself. You can find it on Amazon. I think this is a good trifecta of ingredients to condition leather to be used to make sandals.