DIY leather conditioner

[ScottWolf]

8 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

 I'll demonstrate a misconception you made, here is a short list of old guys from 1892 who wrote books. https://www.thefamouspeople.com/19th-century-scientists.php They had everything in 1892 you have now to make leather conditioner except maybe a few synthetic oils of which I see none mentioned in this thread. Obviously people of that era also had the intellect and scientific knowledge to make it. 

 

HAHA! I want to thank you for not only making my day, but for proving my point and being predictable in response to the saying about the internet I posted.

You assumed I meant all recipes for leather care from 1892, I never said that.The more I interact with you, the more I am understanding that I cannot assume that you are  able to make the logical connections in my statements. That is OK, it is the internet after all and nuance is lost.

So in an attempt to clarify my previous statement that you have taken umbrage with, I will clarify. Yes, there are indeed some recipes from way back when that are still good in this day and age. However there are also others that are not and what I was referring to. Such as those that list ingredients like Lye, Ash, Urine, etc that are clearly no longer relevant. The whole point of the statement is that some people will cling to this dogma and not use critical thinking and question whether or not it's still good information and or get upset when it is questioned by others or when presented with an alternative. It is this cognitive inflexibility that was being addressed.   Hopefully my explanation has clarified this.

[deboardp]

1 hour ago, ScottWolf said:

Again, see my recipe post on how to make leather conditioner, it has ratios of each product and how to modify it if you want a more solid product, a balm or a cream. As for the "stuffing" you mentioned, I am assuming you are referring to hot stuffing,? This is done at the tannery during the tanning process, you are wanting to make a leather conditioner to be applied to finished leather if I understand you correctly. Hot Stuffing is defined by Horween as:

Hot Stuffed: Hot stuffing is the traditional second step in the re-tanning process for leathers that are not fat liquored or wet stuffed. Unrefined fats and oils, that are solid at room temperature, are utilized to deeply nourish and condition the fibers of the hide.  The fats and oils are pounded into the skins via tumbling in heated barrels, without the use of water and emulsifiers. The use of these fats and oils gives the leather a much richer feel. Hot stuffed leathers typically exhibit pull-up, good water resistance and excellent durability over time." Here is the link because someone will undoubtedly want to refute this https://www.horween.com/glossary

You are on the right track with using beeswax, Lanolin and Tallow(beef). I make that exact recipe using the tallow from South Chicago packing and it works great for conditioning a piece of leather. You can also get this same product from Colorado leather balm if you want to try it out before you make it yourself. You can find it on Amazon. I think this is a good trifecta of ingredients to condition leather to be used to make sandals.

 

No, I don't want to make a conditioner to apply on finished leather. I'm making a conditioner for vegetable tanned leather, which is basically collagen fibers without anything else in there with the fibers.  It's an unfinished, dry leather without oils, waxes or fats in it.  I want to hand-stuff my conditioner into the leather, after wetting it with warm water, pressing and massaging it into all surfaces of the leather, flesh side, edges, grain side, so that it penetrates deeply, all the way in, until it seems to be saturated with it. Then I will let it dry for 3 days or so and rub off whatever is on the surface, using a clean microfiber cloth, or perhaps a cotton dishtowel.Then I'll use a bit of cod liver oil on a clean dry cloth and rub the leather with it. This process will lubricate the collagen fibers of the leather so that the leather will become flexible, pliable, softer, and it will also be darker. It helps the sandal straps and topsole conform to the feet, and it will decrease the amount of rubbing of straps into feet that cause blisters. One of my goals of making this conditioner is to make the straps conform to the feet rather than cut into them. Another is to preserve the leather for decades. (I had a pair for 20 years before losing them. The top soles and straps had some cracks after 20 years, and I do not recall having a conditioner like what I am about to make.

I know how hot stuffing in the tannery works. Vegetable tanned leather isn't hot stuffed, but chrome leather is. There are probably other kinds of leather that are hot stuffed.  I work only with vegetable tanned leather, which takes a long time to tan and is expensive because of that. (I'm not interested in using other kinds of leather at this time.) But it is great for tooling, for all kinds of products: saddles, shoes, boots, sandals, bags, and more.

I mostly made sandals 50 years ago, hundreds of pairs. I made a couple bags, a couple belts, a pair of pants with 1/4" strips of leather for stitching, and that leather was - well, I have forgotten the term - but it's very soft, the kind used with prosthetics. The pants were unlined - big mistake! - and only lasted one year. But they were gorgeous for half that time. So I work just with vegetable tanned leather.

What kind of leather products do you make? I see that you joined leatherworkers.net in 2020, stating that your specialty is baseball. Do you make gloves? How long have you been doing what you do? 

Edited January 11, 2024 by deboardp

[ScottWolf]

26 minutes ago, deboardp said:

What kind of leather products do you make? I see that you joined leatherworkers.net in 2020, stating that your specialty is baseball. Do you make gloves? How long have you been doing what you do? 

I'd say most of my life from a teenager to present. Mostly repairs/ minor fabrication of everything from horse tack, shoe repair, hockey equipment, baseball gloves,knife sheaths, holsters, and small clothing items. It's been a life long hobby.

[Burkhardt]

2 hours ago, deboardp said:

I know how hot stuffing in the tannery works. Vegetable tanned leather isn't hot stuffed, but chrome leather is.

http://hermannoakleather.com/products-and-pricing/riverbend-latigo-20121231092650

 

Herman Oak says differently.

[deboardp]

4 minutes ago, Burkhardt said:

http://hermannoakleather.com/products-and-pricing/riverbend-latigo-20121231092650

 

Herman Oak says differently.

Unless I am mistaken, vegetable tanned leather can then be processed with fats/ wax/ oils by stuffing, turning it into what we have here: Latigo leather, and other types. Regular vegetable tanned is not hot stuffed. Maybe other commentators can weigh in. I'm no expert on it, not even close. I just make sandals. 

Edited January 11, 2024 by deboardp

[dikman]

I forgot to mention that in my early experiments at making waxes a chap who posted a long explanation about his experiments said he used pure gum turpentine (so completely natural) as a thinning agent to make the beeswax/carnauba wax softer to apply, so I made a batch using it. It worked ok but after a year or two in the tin a black tar-like deposit started forming on the tin. The wax didn't "go off" or anything and was still quite useable but I don't think I would apply it to leather, just in case, it seems to work fine on wood/metal, however.

Just a bit more info to add.

[Wepster]

to make the wax a bit softer, see my mention of the wood finish, a citrus solvent - basically citrus oil.

Allergy alert... cod liver oil -- fish allergy

Cod liver oil not considered vegan, if that matters to them.

Edited January 11, 2024 by Wepster

[deboardp]

38 minutes ago, Wepster said:

to make the wax a bit softer, see my mention of the wood finish, a citrus solvent - basically citrus oil.

Allergy alert... cod liver oil -- fish allergy

Cod liver oil not considered vegan, if that matters to them.

Good grief!

If a vegan heard about tallow being used she won't want sandals conditioned with tallow as an ingredient.  

Edited January 11, 2024 by deboardp

[SUP]

@Wepster, @deboardp citrus oil - solvent - I suspect they mean Limonene. D-limonene smells of oranges which is pleasant; L-Limonene has a piney-turpentine smell, which is not. D-Limonene as a solvent is great as an addition to leather conditioners - it is an anti-fungal as well. Not sure of the percentage needed though.

If you buy plain Limonene, you get the unseparated mix, which smells of pine and turpentine. So if you want the citrus fragrance, you need to buy the D-Limonene. Often though, it is not sufficiently separated and still has some turpentine smell. 

 @deboardp if vegans don't like what you use, it is their loss, isn't it? How much can you really change your conditioner recipes to suit people's idiosyncrasies?

The change might result in a product that is not as effective and that will be another issue.

A question: Is there a need for tallow as well as lanolin in a conditioner? Is one of these not sufficient, along with beeswax for a bit of stiffness and an oil of choice for penetration into the leather and texture of the conditioner? Just wondering.

@deboardp After the earlier comments on applying conditioners to damp leather, I tried it on some dry leather that I have. I dampened the leather with a spray bottle and then rubbed in the conditioner. It slowly turned white. I left it overnight and the next day, the leather was soft and pliable and shiny - whiteness gone. Delighted with the result but I don't think I will repeat - too much elbow grease needed. But the method works. 

About hot-stuffing, From what I have read, oil tanned leather is specifically chrome tanned leather that is hot stuffed. That does not mean veg tanned leather is not or cannot be hot stuffed - just not given a specific name. Latigo is hot-stuffed and chrome and veg tanned! There are others too and since the process makes the leather more pliable, I guess if we look at the processes of making the more pliable veg-tanned leather, they might include hot stuffing  as well.

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by SUP

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

HAHA! I want to thank you for not only making my day, but for proving my point and being predictable in response to the saying about the internet I posted.

You assumed I meant all recipes for leather care from 1892, I never said that.The more I interact with you, the more I am understanding that I cannot assume that you are  able to make the logical connections in my statements. That is OK, it is the internet after all and nuance is lost.

So in an attempt to clarify my previous statement that you have taken umbrage with, I will clarify. Yes, there are indeed some recipes from way back when that are still good in this day and age. However there are also others that are not and what I was referring to. Such as those that list ingredients like Lye, Ash, Urine, etc that are clearly no longer relevant. The whole point of the statement is that some people will cling to this dogma and not use critical thinking and question whether or not it's still good information and or get upset when it is questioned by others or when presented with an alternative. It is this cognitive inflexibility that was being addressed.   Hopefully my explanation has clarified this.

In what book anywhere have you ever read that ash, lye and urine are used or ever were used as a conditioner?  Is it in the one you wouldn't post because I prolly wouldn't read it anyway? Still waiting I wont let you down. BTW they are still relevant and still used in processing leather lol as well as many products people use daily. Just made some soap used 100% pure lye just like the big companies do.

Haha and thank you for making my day as well. it also proves this "People tend to disagree with personal opinion, vague descriptions, misconception or misrepresentation. " no matter the venue!

Here is the statement you wrote. "When it comes to leather work, it's no different, especially when some old guy in 1892 wrote down in a book that he used ingredient X ,because that's all they had at the time, so now it's considered gospel that cannot be questioned or a more suitable modern ingredient used in its place. One can slather just about anything on leather, but the old saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"  should be kept in mind, even in this day and age."

Clarify exactly how it logically says this. " there are indeed some recipes from way back when that are still good in this day and age. " Fact is it doesn't say that at all, doesn't even hint at that. 

I'll repost my response, it needs no clarification. " I'll demonstrate a misconception you made, here is a short list of old guys from 1892 who wrote books. https://www.thefamouspeople.com/19th-century-scientists.php They had everything in 1892 you have now to make leather conditioner except maybe a few synthetic oils of which I see none mentioned in this thread. Obviously people of that era also had the intellect and scientific knowledge to make it. "

 

 My point is and has been you want to make folks think that leather conditioning is some new found science, because its probably a marketing ploy for you.  All conditioners are a mixture of fats oils and waxs and have been for centuries. As well all the "alternative oils" you reference were also used back then and as easily accessible as they are today. Olive oil, coconut butter and bee poop, or whatever buzz word  concoction, conditioner isn't new my friend,  the folks that buy it from you may think so but most folks here know better. 

I wish you well with that most of the newer leather folks provide a small tin of super secret, eco friendly, sustainable, special stuff to rub on their leather work. It gives younger folks that warm fuzzy feeling and makes them part of the process.

2 hours ago, deboardp said:

Good grief!

If a vegan heard about tallow being used she won't want sandals conditioned with tallow as an ingredient.  

she probably would want want the leather sandals either.