DIY leather conditioner

[dikman]

Sup, ScottWolf has used it in his recipes so I'm assuming it's not detrimental to leather, BUT as you say it is a fairly strong solvent (used as a paintstripper!!) so I guess one would have to be careful about how much is added to the mix.

Burkhardt, it is difficult to find information about using vegetable oils in leather conditioners but when I searched for info on pork fat and macadamia oil it all related to using them in cooking. All mentioned about shelf life (1 - 2 years) and deteriorating after that, even when kept refrigerated, in other words turning rancid. Anything that can't be stored indefinitely at room temperature has to be considered suspect for long-term use on leather. I haven't looked at every vegetable oil but those I have all mention having a finite storage life.

Maybe we need a post (sticky?) of a simple list of stuff that is known to be harmless when used on leather?

[SUP]

@dikman I have been using D-Limonene in my conditioner for quite a while now,  and just about everything else since it is a very safe pesticide and cleaner as well. But in small amounts. My concern is only about using it as a softener for wax. Waxes are hard and need quite a bit of a thinning agent. I was wondering how it would affect leather in larger amounts and over time. It is supposed to be a good degreaser as well, because of its solvent properties, so I am not sure how it will work along with waxes, in larger concentrations. Will it dissolve the waxes? I have no idea. As an insecticide and for fragrance it is used in such small amounts, it does not seem to harm leather or dissolve the waxes either. I will probably look into it sometime and put it up here if I learn something new. I use so much D-Limonene, I like to know what else I can do with it.

As far as vegetable oils are concerned, I know that coconut oil, which is notorious for smelling awful when exposed to air, did not smell at all when applied to leather. Four different pieces of leather kept in four different locations and no smell.  I was surprised but there it is.   Of course, I used the fractionated coconut oil, so that might be one reason for that. So the treatment of the vegetable oils maybe something to look into, for anyone who wants to use vegetable oils.

 

Edited January 12 by SUP

[ScottWolf]

1 hour ago, SUP said:

My concern is only about using it as a softener for wax. Waxes are hard and need quite a bit of a thinning agent. I was wondering how it would affect leather in larger amounts and over time. As an insecticide and for fragrance it is used in such small amounts, it does not seem to harm leather.

If you want to soften up your waxes, adjust the amount of "oils" in your ratios of ingredients. Higher % of oils to waxes will result in a softer balm or to a cream like consistency depending on how much you increase the ratio of those oils. Increasing the ratio of D-L  in your mix might have the effect you want, but its an expensive one compared to just adding a bit more of the oil(s) you are using, which are less expensive.

 

 

[deboardp]

14 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

Safety note* D-Limonene is flammable. It also has a strong smell in a confined area and if you let 100% pure D-L  sit on your skin too long, it may cause irritation.

Instinctively, I am concerned about this product. It's a solvent that puts off heat as it evaporates. It can irritate the skin. If it evaporates it will no longer be in the leather. If I use an oil, I want it to stay in the leather so that the grease (my conditioner) will stay soft and not become cake. My leather will be in contact with skin, or separated only by the thickness of a sock, so for all those reasons I won't use it. 

Scott why do you buy so much of this orange oil in its various forms? What do you do with it? And why are you making so many batches of conditioner? What do you do with all those jars and tins of conditioners? From what you have written I get the impression that you have made quite a bit of conditioner in a number of configurations. Why? Just curious. 

What do think of coconut oil as an ingredient? Do you have any experience with it? I think that it would be a pleasant aromatic addition to my formula. 

Do you know what makes an oil go rancid? Is it the presence of unsaturated molecules in it? My friend and I thought that coconut oil would be stable long term because it is saturated. 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, SUP said:

@dikman I have been using D-Limonene in my conditioner for quite a while now,  and just about everything else since it is a very safe pesticide and cleaner as well. But in small amounts. My concern is only about using it as a softener for wax. Waxes are hard and need quite a bit of a thinning agent. I was wondering how it would affect leather in larger amounts and over time. As an insecticide and for fragrance it is used in such small amounts, it does not seem to harm leather. 

As far as vegetable oils are concerned, I know that coconut oil, which is notorious for smelling awful when exposed to air, did not smell at all when applied to leather. Four different pieces of leather kept in four different locations and no smell.  I was surprised but there it is.   Of course, I used the fractionated coconut oil, so that might be one reason for that. So the treatment of the vegetable oils maybe something to look into, for anyone who wants to use vegetable oils.

 

I cant really see/understand adding a solvent/degreaser to an oil based product. The only thing i can see it would do is break down the oils and waxes to possibly help move them through the leather but they don't really need the help if mixed properly and at the proper ratios and applied correctly. Does it evaporate out at some point or stay in?  I guess I'm saying, the two are opposite in the intent of keeping good oils and greases in the leather, why would you add a degreaser to grease?

[Wepster]

I am guessing here, perhaps it breaks down the ingredients just a bit (assuming you use just a bit, in the wood finish its said to be a small amount) to aid in the blending of the wax and oil. Perhaps less stirring is needed?

[SUP]

@chuck123wapati you are perfectly right about adding solvents to oil based products - why would you? You want to soften the products, not degrade them. What is the advantage of that? I wonder what the end products are and how they will affect leather, the end products of degradation of the various oils and waxes I mean.

Anyway, why are we even talking about adding solvents to leather conditioners? It makes absolutely no sense! No one does it, except for miniscule amounts,  for like I said, fragrance or insecticidal properties - certainly not for its solvent properties!.

So maybe, just maybe, we should move on. 

 

Edited January 12 by SUP

[SUP]

I wonder if I write so badly that some people don't understand my posts? Some of the responses make no sense. 

Enough of grumpiness.

I have ordered several pounds of tallow and am just waiting to try it. Everyone has such praise for it, I had to get it. Not elk tallow though as @chuck123wapati uses.  I do not think we can get it for sale - we get beef, lamb, bison but not elk.

Does Tallow get very soft in summer? Here it gets pretty warm, so when I make the conditioner I want to be certain it will not get too messy in summer.

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by SUP

[chuck123wapati]

22 minutes ago, SUP said:

I wonder if I write so badly that some people don't understand my posts? Some of the responses make no sense. 

Enough of grumpiness.

I have ordered several pounds of tallow and am just waiting to try it. Everyone has such praise for it, I had to get it. Not elk tallow though as @chuck123wapati uses. I do not think we can get it for sale.

Does Tallow get very soft in summer? Here it gets pretty warm, so when I make the conditioner I want to be certain it will not get too messy in summer.

 

 

 

 

tallow,  greases and oils all have specific melting points and is one thing that defines them as different.  I think tallow melt point is about 104 or so. the addition of wax will raise the melting point a bit.

I am in process of making soap with some of my Elk tallow lol. So far I have 36 bars of Lemon , Lavender and peppermint scented soaps with another 12 bars to be molded today. That will be enough bar soap for at least a year. I may make up a bit of conditioner just for shits and giggles. I still have several pounds to use up. I wonder now how hard it will be to render out some fish oils for experimental purposes lol. 

[SUP]

@chuck123wapati  And fish oils are supposed to be good for leather too -used in oil-tanning leather isn't it? At least, that I want is said in the literature. 

If I were in Nevada, I would have an issue with tallow as the temperature goes up to late teens there but here, it is positively balmy in comparison. So I will not need too much wax then. Thank you.

Edited January 12 by SUP

[deboardp]

5 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

I cant really see/understand adding a solvent/degreaser to an oil based product. The only thing i can see it would do is break down the oils and waxes to possibly help move them through the leather but they don't really need the help if mixed properly and at the proper ratios and applied correctly. Does it evaporate out at some point or stay in?  I guess I'm saying, the two are opposite in the intent of keeping good oils and greases in the leather, why would you add a degreaser to grease?

Exactly!

[SUP]

@chuck123wapati a bit off topic, but you said you use your tallow to make soaps - lemon, lavender, peppermint. Do you use essential oils for fragrance? 

 

[chuck123wapati]

36 minutes ago, SUP said:

@chuck123wapati a bit off topic, but you said you use your tallow to make soaps - lemon, lavender, peppermint. Do you use essential oils for fragrance? 

 

yes I just picked some up at the store but we did add some lemon juice as well to the one. I would like to try and make some someday but finding the time during the spring is difficult.

[SUP]

9 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

yes I just picked some up at the store but we did add some lemon juice as well to the one. I would like to try and make some someday but finding the time during the spring is difficult.

Making essential oils must be time consuming, isn't it? 

I'm actually looking for a leather or tobacco fragrance. I'm a bit tired of everything smelling of orange! I thought my leather  at least should smell a little different. Last week I added a tiny bit of a solid scent that I bought last month.  It is a paste so blends right in. Strong scent so only a little was needed - smells of leather and tobacco. If I don't get a good fragrance oil for a leather fragrance, I will probably continue to use it.

Edited January 12 by SUP

[jrdunn]

45 minutes ago, SUP said:

Making essential oils must be time consuming, isn't it? 

I'm actually looking for a leather or tobacco fragrance. I'm a bit tired of everything smelling of orange! I thought my leather  at least should smell a little different. Last week I added a tiny bit of a solid scent that I bought last month.  It is a paste so blends right in. Strong scent so only a little was needed - smells of leather and tobacco. If I don't get a good fragrance oil for a leather fragrance, I will probably continue to use it.

@SUP

Here is what I bought from Amazon.  I like it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071Y4CM3D/?coliid=I1QCOK7FF39BD1&colid=1AKLUS58CBF4H&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

[SUP]

@jrdunn thank you. I am ordering it at once. 

[fredk]

@SUP Here's an idea; get a decent sized shed. Invite a load old men to use it. Free to use, only they have to smoke pipes or ceeegars. Hang your leather in it and wait. Guaranteed it will smell of baccy after a while

[dikman]

Sup, found on the 'net - Beef tallow has a melting point 35-40 deg. C. Mutton tallow has a melting point 40-45 deg. C. (I think my sheep tallow might be higher as it doesn't soften over summer).

D-limonene might be a solvent, but does it actually dissolve beeswax? People who have lubricated bullets with a beeswax concoction have asked about removing it and the answer has always been to melt the lead and re-cast the bullets. Beeswax is extremely difficult to remove once applied, not much will touch it.

And ScottWolf is right, D-limonene is expensive, particularly here in Australia. So I don't think I'll bother with it.

[SUP]

@fredk LOL That's one way of doing it.

[SUP]

@dikman I use a D-limonene cleaner to clean my pots after I make leather conditioners in it, which contain beeswax. I spray it in and leave it fora while. Then I wipe it off. Sometimes I need to do it twice. After that, a quick scrub with soap, more for my satisfaction, and it's clean. My cleaner is  a 16 oz bottle filled nearly to the top with tap water, 1-2 Tbsp of D-Limonene, 1 Tbsp of alcohol and a few drops of Dawn dishwashing soap as surfactant, in case you were wondering. Found this recipe online, tried it and am delighted with it. I suspect the alcohol evaporates fast enough though. 

I can understand D-Limonene being so expensive in Australia. Maybe you need to find a local manufacturer there?

 

 

Edited January 13 by SUP

[ScottWolf]

11 hours ago, deboardp said:

Instinctively, I am concerned about this product. It's a solvent that puts off heat as it evaporates. It can irritate the skin. If it evaporates it will no longer be in the leather. If I use an oil, I want it to stay in the leather so that the grease (my conditioner) will stay soft and not become cake. My leather will be in contact with skin, or separated only by the thickness of a sock, so for all those reasons I won't use it. 

 

I think you are over thinking this. When D-L is mixed into the product it doesn’t present the same issues of flammability and irritation to skin as it does when you have it in 100% liquid form near a heat source or when you get some on your skin while handling it. Once its in a product, those concerns aren’t an issue. If you’ve used any product that says “citrus” on it, it very likely has a % of D-L in it. D-L is a solvent, but a better alternative to other solvents currently used in some/most commercial leather conditioning products. As is with most solvents in a product, D-L will evaporate over time and exposure to air. The advantage of D-L in a conditioner is that it does assist in the absorption of the conditioning ingredients down into the leather fibers where you want it and not just sit on the grain of the leather, as well as makes it easier to spread/apply. This reduces the amount of times you would need to apply a conditioner, as the D-L is assisting in getting those conditioning ingredients deep down into the corium of the leather.  When you use a product that has D-L in it, you will notice how fast and easy it is absorbed and the need for rubbing the product in is reduced. Of course, this is the case and purpose that other chemical solvents that you may be familiar with are used in some commercial leather conditioning products. And like all solvents, once it has assisted in carrying the conditioning ingredients down into the leather, it will eventually evaporate as most carriers do. So your concern about the leather being in contact with skin and being an irritant isn’t an issue.

11 hours ago, deboardp said:

Scott why do you buy so much of this orange oil in its various forms? What do you do with it? And why are you making so many batches of conditioner? What do you do with all those jars and tins of conditioners? From what you have written I get the impression that you have made quite a bit of conditioner in a number of configurations. Why? Just curious.

I don’t buy a lot of it. As I mentioned earlier, a  little goes a long way when you are using 100% pure D-L. However, before I started using it, I did a lot of research on it and the learned about the differences I mentioned in my previous post above. I use D-L in my conditioner(s) as described in the paragraph above, as a solvent and also for the pleasant aroma. I also use it as an additional product that I add to my cleaning product when cleaning a particularly dirty piece of leather. I add a small splash of it to the soap product I use when scrubbing the piece when it has a layer of built up grime or a foreign substance that isn’t coming off with normal soap and scrubbing ( like pine tar or tree sap for example). Again, a little is all that is needed and the grime/foreign substance comes off easily, some times wiping a rag across the piece is all that is needed to get the substance/grime off of the leather. Once you start using it, you will find it has multiple uses around the house and in the leather shop.

The short version of why I have made all the different batches of conditioner is because I got tired of trying to figure out what product out there best suited my needs. I believe I do explain this in more detail in my DIY recipe thread. Basically it started with Camp A claiming NFO is evil  and they only use Lexol and Camp B saying products with NFO in them is OK to use (this was before Lexol started putting it out there that NFO is Lexol on the website). So I did some research and looked at MSDS’s and discovered that Lexol’s conditioning ingredient was  in fact NFO at about a 5-10% ratio and 80% was water and the remaining ingredients where preservatives and emulsifiers to hold it all together.  This goes back to the on going debate people have about which product or ingredient is “best” or “worst” for use on leather and they only use product X because it doesn’t have ingredient X in it.  I have found that some/most people have no clue what ingredients their favorite conditioning product has in it. So it became my own little research project to see what was actually the ground truth.

Once you know what ratios to use with the different types of ingredients, making leather conditioner isn’t hard to do. If you can make Ramen on the stove without killing yourself or burning the house down, you can make your own leather conditioner in about 20-30 mins. Once you have the majority of the materials you need on hand, like beeswax or Carnauba wax, etc on hand, adding a different ingredient or a different combination is quick and easy to do. If you have the 4oz tins on hand, its as easy as filling a pot with just enough water in it to cover the bottom and then place the 4 oz tin in it and let the beeswax liquefy and then add the other ingredients in, then let cool/refrigerate. You now have a small sample to try out and determine if it gives the results you want on the leather. What I have found in all of this is that I have my own order of operations when it comes to using what product I will use either before, during or after working on a piece. So I will use my DIY conditioner A immediately after washing/cleaning an item and it is damp. Then after it is dry, I will work on the piece or make repairs and or dye, apply conditioner B which has different ingredients in it to further condition and or seal, finish the piece and then use Conditioner C as a last finishing touch. My last finishing conditioner typically has a small % of Mineral oil in it due to the PROs that it provides to the piece, such as bringing color out and adding a shine/sheen. I don’t use any product that has MO in It when my intent is to condition and lubricate the leather fibers, I prefer other ingredients for that specific task. So this is why I have tried and have so many combinations of conditioners with different ingredients and or different ratios of certain ingredients on hand.

11 hours ago, deboardp said:

What do think of coconut oil as an ingredient? Do you have any experience with it? I think that it would be a pleasant aromatic addition to my formula. 

I have no issue with it. As I mentioned in a previous post above, certain ingredients have an observable effect on the leather. Coconut oil is known to darken leather. So if that is what you want to do, then that is an ingredient to use in a conditioner be it DIY or commercially procured. I can’t say that it has any discernible aroma in the final product though. I suppose if you used enough of it, it may have a slight aroma. If its an aroma you are after, I would suggest adding a “Essential oil” product to you recipe, as that is what most manufacturers do to get a specific aroma. Some essential oils also offer some anti fungal/preservative properties if that’s also your thing, but I take that with a grain of salt as to its actual effectiveness given the quantity used in a product. Personally, I think most use essential oils in a product for the users to enjoy while applying the product, as after its been applied you typically cant smell much of the aroma.

11 hours ago, deboardp said:

Do you know what makes an oil go rancid? Is it the presence of unsaturated molecules in it? My friend and I thought that coconut oil would be stable long term because it is saturated. 

I touch on this subject in my DIY recipe thread in the conditioning forum here. OXIDATION is what is happening at the molecular level. I am not a fan of the term “rancid”, as a large majority of people associate that with things like milk or meat, etc going rancid, as that is what most are familiar with. Here is the thing people conveniently overlook, EVERYTHING oxidizes at some point. As an example, an old grayish white leather product that has become stiff is something we’ve probably all encountered at some point. As an example: NFO oxidizes and crystalizes inside of leather over time and that is typically what is the cause of said stiff whiteish leather when proper maintenance and conditioning hasn’t been maintained. Yet you don’t read/hear about NFO going “rancid” in a leather conditioner. Because it doesn’t’ present the typical rancid odor that a different ingredient might have, but it most definitely did/does oxidize, given enough time and lack of maintenance.  You will also see statements like “ I won’t use X in my product because it can go rancid”. Here is another point overlooked when you see statements like that. YES, ingredient X can and or will go rancid given the right conditions and or time. However, when you mix ingredient X in with other ingredients, like beeswax, vitamin E, etc and or other natural preservatives, it retards the potential of ingredient X from oxidizing before it is consumed through use. This is why you see some chemical preservatives in commercially available leather conditioners where there are not a lot or no natural ingredients with those preservative properties in them.  At the end of the day, no one is using the evil ingredient X by itself and the ironic part is that you will find a lot of commercially available products in fact have ingredient X in it that some people may be opposed to being used and they are simply unaware of this fact.

Saturated vs Unsaturated: This is a rabbit hole IMO. Yes, there is a quantifiable difference in how each reacts and its well documented/studied. But as I mentioned, everything oxidizes at some point, some faster, some slower than others. I look at this as a purely academic/scientific knowledge to have, but worrying about it as it applies to leather conditioners is like worrying about the arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic. It’s easy to put too much thought into every ingredient, as they all have different characteristics/properties and those differences, while relevant, are insignificant to the big picture unless you want to argue if ingredient A is better than ingredient B as an ingredient in a leather conditioner despite both being able to produce acceptable performance when applied to a piece of leather. It can become pedantic very quickly if you go too deep. This is why I don't worry about this or Iodine values, etc of an ingredient too much.

Edited January 13 by ScottWolf

[deboardp]

2 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

Once you know what ratios to use with the different types of ingredients, making leather conditioner isn’t hard to do.

I don't have any experience making conditioner. 50 years ago in my first shops i used a little pure neatsfoot oil and never gave conditioning a thought. Today, I want to be sure my sandals last at least 2-3 decades. 

When I started looking for the best conditioner for the leather I use - vegetable tanned leather - I came across the conditioner formula that English saddlers have been using allegedly for centuries, and read that it had no oil whatever in it. It had two kinds of saturated fat - tallow and lard - beeswax, and lanolin. It was heated, stirred, put in tins where it cooled. It was a thick grease. So your recipes are heavy with oil and that's why I'm not interested in them. You also mentioned using the orange oil as a solvent to help work the conditioner into the fibers of the leather and if I recall you mentioned that there are other solvents. The most common solvent in chemistry is water, and its ability to dissolve is enhanced by heat. When the English Saddlers use their saddle grease they used warm water to wet the leather and let it work for a period of time, I believe it was just a few minutes. Vegetable tanned leather, having had everything but its collagen fibers removed during tanning, soaks up this warm water. It's pores open. When the absorption and opening is complete, the saddler uses his bare hands and massages the grease into the open pores of the leather, grain side, flesh side, and the edges. The rubbing and massaging creates heat, which makes the grease more fluid, and able to penetrate into the open poresWhen it seems the leather is well greased through and through, the saddle is put aside for three days so it can dry. When the water has evaporated out the pores and the leather is dry, the saddler rubs the leather with a cloth to remove surface residue. Then putting a small amount of cod liver oil on his cloth, he puts a shine on the leather. 

This cod liver oil is not a conditioner and it is not absorbed by the leather, because the leather is already stuffed with tallow, lard, wax, and lanolin. So the leather has no oil at all in it, none at all. 

I had only considered using oil as a thinner, but after revisiting the above, I'm inclined to forget about using any oil at all in my conditioner, making my own version of leather grease instead. 

As @chuck123wapati said, in his usual brilliant manner,  why use a degreaser in your grease? It just doesn't make sense. @SUP agrees. As do I, obviously. Chuck is a great resource. 

The only difference? I'm leaning toward a grease formula that doesn't include tallow and lard. Since I can smell the animal in both those products, I prefer to not use them. I prefer things that have a decidedly strong pleasant smell, like the beeswax and the Lanolin. I'll think about using coconut oil rather than the fish oil for the shine. That might help the coconut smell be prominent. We'll see. Now that the ruminant is out, I'll continue to ruminate the shine. Feedback is welcome from all. 

 

Edited January 13 by deboardp

[ScottWolf]

16 minutes ago, deboardp said:

So your recipes are heavy with oil and that's why I'm not interested in them

No, those are recipes that have oils in them, which most conditioners do; they are examples. The "Recipe" itself(how to go about making  it) allows you to insert what ever ingredients YOU want to use. You don't want oils, cool, use the ingredients you prefer, using the ratios  stated in the recipe as a baseline to begin with and then you can work on refining your product from there. The saddlers grease you mentioned, you already have. You said you bought tins of Colorado leather balm previously and the ingredients you just listed above are what is in the Colorado leather balm you have. So give it a test run doing it the way you just described on some scrap pieces and see if it gets you the result you are looking for.

Why use a de-greaser in your grease? To be clear, we are talking about solvents, it just so happens that some solvents work well as de-greasers, among other things. A small enough amount of a solvent is used in the product to make the grease easier to spread and so that is absorbed into the leather easier. It's what solvents do and why they are used in most commercially available leather conditioners. You don't have to use them obviously and if you want to rely solely on the water to swell the leather fibers so that the conditioner can penetrate between the fibers, that will work. I even mentioned in my previous statement above, that part of my order of operations is using my Conditioner A while the leather is still damp. I do it for the very same reason, it is a technique that one can use to get conditioners into  and in between the leather fibers inside of the leather easier than if it was dry.

If you want to use just beeswax, lanolin and coconut oil, use the ratios in the recipe and combine all 3 ingredients. If you want to just use the beeswax and lanolin and apply the coconut oil separately, then start with a 1 to 1 ratio to see if it produces the consistency you want. If it isn't soft enough, up the ratio of lanolin and or reduce the amount of beeswax. If you want more of a true grease consistency, don't be surprised if you end up having to add the coconut oil to the mix, as using just beeswax and lanolin, you may end up with something ranging from the consistency of a Carmex chapstick to a stiff balm as you play with the ratios. If that doesnt achieve the consistency you want, you may also try applying just the anhydrous lanolin by itself, as it has a consistency similar to a sticky grease and then use a conditioner consisting of the beeswax and coconut oil. If you do decide to apply straight coconut oil to the finished product as a final touch, expect the leather to darken significantly at first and remain that way for a period of time before it lightens up.

[dikman]

dboardp, you won't use tallow because of the "animal" smell but you're happy to use lanolin? Lanolin smells a lot stronger than my (sheep) tallow. I also have some lanolin grease and again, it smells very strong compared to my tallow. I also have a can of spray lube that is lanolin-based and anything I spray it on smells like sheep!

[deboardp]

57 minutes ago, dikman said:

dboardp, you won't use tallow because of the "animal" smell but you're happy to use lanolin? Lanolin smells a lot stronger than my (sheep) tallow. I also have some lanolin grease and again, it smells very strong compared to my tallow. I also have a can of spray lube that is lanolin-based and anything I spray it on smells like sheep!

I should have said I can smell the animal meat. Lanolin does smell stronger but it's not a meat smell and it is positively a pleasant smell. 

In deference to the monks who do not eat meat ever, and to vegans, vegetarians, and my sensitive olfactory function I'll walk the narrower path. 

Edited January 13 by deboardp