No room for two needles in stitching holes (pics)

[MarshalWill]

I only use a diamond awl to punch holes but then, I don't have a machine.. In the saddle shop we would use a machine to punch the holes, like @dikman mentioned.

It pays to get a good diamond awl. I have several for different jobs but mostly, I use a 38mm Vergez-Blanchard awl. The 38mm is the smallest they offer. The brass collar is narrow and doesn't get in the way when punching close to some hardware or such. Shape the tip and keep it sharp so it penetrates the leather easily.

The one on the right is a round awl not used to make holes for stitching but the others are diamond stitch awls. The one on the left is the Vergez-Blanchard. The one next to that is what I use for thicker leather. The other two don't get much use at all.

[Dannyman]

16 hours ago, toxo said:

Firstly there's no mystery to leather work. Most of it is common sense. If you want to do two needles, use a bigger hole or smaller needles. Nothing wrong with one at a time. The learning curve comes when you want it to look good. You don't want to see half a hole next to the thread. I would advise you get a single hole punch with changeable heads. Will also do for rivets and belt holes.

Why would I buy a single hole punch with changeable heads and use that in conjunction with a diamond shaped awl? Is it hard to aim the awl exactly in the same direction, each time you follow up a hole with it? Or is there a technique to make sure of that?

I had a look at buying a single hole punch. The seller only offers two kinds of changeable heads.; hollow and regular. Does hollow just means a bigger hole?

What exactly is so advantageous about a single hole punch or round hole punch? I was looking at this set of punches

very curious :). I just bought the The Art of Hand Sewing Leather btw. Thanks for the tip TomE

[SUP]

4 hours ago, Dannyman said:

What exactly is so advantageous about a single hole punch or round hole punch?

If you are using bought patterns, often, the distance between the stitching holes in the pattern do not exactly match any set of chisels like the one you have mentioned above. This discrepancy occurs because the method of measuring the distances between prongs varies. Many sellers, e.g. Dieselpunk.ro, use expensive chisel sets like  Sinebrok chisels. For his patterns I use ordinary but also good chisels off Amazon, where the 6 and 9 prong chisels don't work but the 2 prong ones do. The same set works perfectly for patterns bought from other sellers off Etsy and I can use the 6 and 9 prong chisels there.

So for the times when your chisel sets don't work for a pattern,  you need single hole punches. Another reason would be because many pattern sellers tell you the size of the holes needed, e.g. 1mm or 1.5mm. because they expect you to use punches. Once you know the diameter of your chisel-punched holes of course, you can use chisels.

Now about using the diamond stitching chisels, the patterns are often not made with those in mind, so the directions of the angles might differ in different parts of your product unless you map them all correctly. Much easier to punch round holes and case the stitches to get the required angles. Easier and faster, at least for me.

Now, while it is true that punching holes actually takes off a bit of the leather while chisels only make a slit  through the leather, most of the patterns have holes far enough apart not to much weaken the leather. For smaller items like wallets and watch straps I do not know since I don't make them.  I think they will need finer holes and smaller stitches closer together than, say, a backpack or handbag or saddle. 

Edited March 22, 2024 by SUP

[jcuk]

5 hours ago, Dannyman said:

Is it hard to aim the awl exactly in the same direction, each time you follow up a hole with it? Or is there a technique to make sure of that?

The way i was taught this was to line your Awl up with the angle of your stitch mark, and where your thumb is on the Awl haft cut a notch out colour with a marker pen that should help keep your Awl at the correct angle.

Hope this helps

JCUK

[toxo]

5 hours ago, Dannyman said:

Why would I buy a single hole punch with changeable heads and use that in conjunction with a diamond shaped awl? Is it hard to aim the awl exactly in the same direction, each time you follow up a hole with it? Or is there a technique to make sure of that?

I had a look at buying a single hole punch. The seller only offers two kinds of changeable heads.; hollow and regular. Does hollow just means a bigger hole?

What exactly is so advantageous about a single hole punch or round hole punch? I was looking at this set of punches

very curious :). I just bought the The Art of Hand Sewing Leather btw. Thanks for the tip TomE

There are many variations of hand stitching. A punch will make a hole whereas a chisel will make a slit. It takes a certain amount of skill to use an awl and look good when finished. If using a pattern the holes will often be marked. This is where confusion comes in. You may buy a set of punches/chisels for one project only to find the distance between stitches on the next project has a different distance. A single punch will do for all until you know what you're doing, a good set of punches/chisels are not cheap. If wanting a sloping stitch you can use a pricking wheel which has spikes and will mark all the places to make your hole for stitching, or use a pricking iron which is designed for just marking the leather. The trick is to go through both pieces together or if doing each piece separately, make sure you start at the same place else they won't match up.

[SUP]

@jcuk instead of first punching round holes and then using an awl individually on each hole to shape it, isn't it easier to case the stitches? Same result 0f angled stitches...isn't it? Unless I am missing something..

[Dannyman]

2 hours ago, SUP said:

If you are using bought patterns, often, the distance between the stitching holes in the pattern do not exactly match any set of chisels like the one you have mentioned above. This discrepancy occurs because the method of measuring the distances between prongs varies. Many sellers, e.g. Dieselpunk.ro, use expensive chisel sets like  Sinebrok chisels. For his patterns I use ordinary but also good chisels off Amazon, where the 6 and 9 prong chisels don't work but the 2 prong ones do. The same set works perfectly for patterns bought from other sellers off Etsy and I can use the 6 and 9 prong chisels there.

So for the times when your chisel sets don't work for a pattern,  you need single hole punches. Another reason would be because many pattern sellers tell you the size of the holes needed, e.g. 1mm or 1.5mm. because they expect you to use punches. Once you know the diameter of your chisel-punched holes of course, you can use chisels.

Now about using the diamond stitching chisels, the patterns are often not made with those in mind, so the directions of the angles might differ in different parts of your product unless you map them all correctly. Much easier to punch round holes and case the stitches to get the required angles. Easier and faster, at least for me.

Now, while it is true that punching holes actually takes off a bit of the leather while chisels only make a slit  through the leather, most of the patterns have holes far enough apart not to much weaken the leather. For smaller items like wallets and watch straps I do not know since I don't make them.  I think they will need finer holes and smaller stitches closer together than, say, a backpack or handbag or saddle. 

Thanks for your explanation SUP. It's very clear .

@jcuk: Thanks for the trick. That's a simple but smart one... I'll remember that...

@toxo: 

[jcuk]

5 hours ago, SUP said:

@jcuk instead of first punching round holes and then using an awl individually on each hole to shape it, isn't it easier to case the stitches? Same result 0f angled stitches...isn't it? Unless I am missing something..

I have never stitched using round holes, i did watch the video with Nigel Armitage doing this as always he explains things very well also he explains how casting the stitch adds no strength to the stitch but will give you the angle some people like, have to say some don't, me i do think it looks so much better.  Most of my work consist of repairing and making saddlery so i use the traditional method for stitching needle and awl, over time if you want to use the needle and awl method you will start to refine the method you use, at least that what happened to me but you have to understand i was taught this method by attending saddlery courses long before youtube. But i do think think there are some very good youtube vids to be watched and also some terrible ones in my eyes. If it was me just starting out and had no leather working courses near, i would not look much further than some off the links below. One thing you will notice they all stitch towards themselves, to its just foreign to stitch away. And there may be the odd occasion you might have to do this but i cant remember the last time i have had to do this.

https://www.youtube.com/@UKSaddlerytrainingcoursesuk

https://www.youtube.com/@ArmitageLeather

https://www.youtube.com/@JHLeather

https://www.youtube.com/@LeathercraftMasterclas 

Some of these also hold on-line courses which may be of help.

Hope this helps

JCUK

[SUP]

@jcuk thank you for that detailed explanation. Being still new to leatherwork (since end of Jan 2023) there is so much I don't know. It seems to me that the more I learn the more I realize I don't know!

I will watch those videos. I will not have to hunt for the good ones, since you have provided them.

I stitch towards myself too. After watching very many videos las year, I did learn enough to stitch away from me but it was a bit uncomfortable so I stopped.

Now I can't wait to see those videos and learn the prick-and-awl method. (and all projects under way get set aside! All for family, so they won't complain.)

See but my question still is this:

With pricking chisels and then use of an awl, the hole is not punched first. The holes are just positioned with pricks, so that awl punch is the first time the leather gets perforated for each hole. Therefore, it will be a small hole.

If a stitching awl is used on a hole already punched, will it not widen that hole? Unless of course, smaller holes are punched deliberately and the awl used is sized accordingly.? Did I just answer my own question?

[jcuk]

Pricking irons which is what i use, will only mark the stitching marks they do not punch all the way through the leather that is what the awl is for it does take time to master this method but to its better to have this skill than not. Yes the stitching chisels will punch all the way through the leather will get a lot people up and running learning to saddle stitch. Pricking iron and stitching chisels are not the same thing. There is a thread pinned here some where explaining about the difference.