Sieck 269-373 Tension trouble

[LimaZuluTango]

Hi everyone!

I believe the phrase "long time listener, first time caller" is apt here even if we are not on a radio station.

I'm a general maker but mainly I'm a leatherworker. I make a plethora of things from wallets to hats.

I recently acquired a Sieck 269-373 sewing machine, which I can only assume is a Chinese copy of the Durkopp Adler with the same numbering. So it is fair to say I am new to the august club of sewing machine owners. I have had problems even finding a good manual for the machine so I'm not even sure it's threaded correctly. I have included pictures which show the threading. I am also significantly confused over what thread size this machine can handle. Wherever I look I see different opinions on this matter but as of right now it is (hopefully incorrectly which might make for an easy fix) threaded with TEX 135 bonded Nylon both above and below. I have included pictures of the threading for reference. My problem is mainly the tensioning. I don't know if this is because the thread is too thick or because of a setting. I have tried cranking the tension right up but I get the bobbin thread basically sitting flush and not being pulled into the leather at all. I've included a picture of a flipped over piece of 5 oz veg tan that I tried to put a seam in.

I now ask for your help to see if anything stand out as wrong or any ideas that pop up. And please, do not think that anything might be too stupid for me to have done as I am a complete novice with this machine.

Thank you.

 

[nylonRigging]

On 6/21/2024 at 11:29 AM, LimaZuluTango said:

My problem is mainly the tensioning.

OK, Not sure if proper routing ? . just throwing ideas out there .. but from your Pic. it looks like you not utilizing full benefit of your larger tension-disks/knob on that thread routing . Look like it needs to be using more tension surface area. As it is right now, looks like you only using maybe 25% surface of that main tension knob .

But right now, your not getting much thread surface on that main Tension Knob Disks with routing that you doing . I don't know why ? , it not with what choices given you on that machine . If yiu look at a Pic. of a Durkopp Adler 269 . The thread routing goes over around the Top and down around of main Knob tension .

Is it possible maybe ? , to take that routing as it comes around that main tension knob . Take that thread over more L-side to the 'thread guide' . To then take thread routing down to the Take-up spring routing .
I Not sure if that Thread Guide that is above your take-up, has 2 holes, or it just open wire guide ? .  Route .. Main Knob  --> L- to tension guide --> down to take-up --> then back up threw thread guide .
.

Or ? .. can you ( flip-over ) that thread guide that is above your take-up . From pointing Left , to pointing Right ?
Then come off that main tension knob with thread . to thread guide . down to Take-up . Then come up from ' take-up spring'  routing thread up threw the other thread guide that is below the safety guard .
.

 

Edited June 22 by nylonRigging

[Uwe]

Yes, the photo sure looks like the top thread path is not quite right. Pre-tension loop (D) is not right, going around the main tension discs (B) in the wrong direction, not pulled between main tension discs (B), not going up through the thread guide after check spring. 

 

Here’s the threading diagram from the Durkopp Adler 268 manual (same top threading as 269):

[nylonRigging]

5 minutes ago, Uwe said:

Yes, the photo sure looks like the top thread path is not quite right. Pre-tension loop (D) is not right, going around the main tension discs (B) in the wrong direction, not pulled between main tension discs (B), not going up through the thread guide after check spring. 

 

Here’s the threading diagram from the Durkopp Adler 268 manual (same top threading as 269):

 

Ya there something funny going on there with the routing choice that machine is giving him .

If you look at a Pic. of a Durkopp Adler 269 . That this machine copies . The thread routing goes over around the Top and down around of main Knob tension, and makes WAY better use of the main tension.

.

Edited June 22 by nylonRigging

[LimaZuluTango]

On 6/22/2024 at 10:21 PM, Uwe said:

Yes, the photo sure looks like the top thread path is not quite right. Pre-tension loop (D) is not right, going around the main tension discs (B) in the wrong direction, not pulled between main tension discs (B), not going up through the thread guide after check spring. 

 

Here’s the threading diagram from the Durkopp Adler 268 manual (same top threading as 269):

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. This fixed the tension trouble instantly! The fact that you went through the trouble of making the picture. I tip my hat to you sir.

Now to tackle the next problem but I will make a serious effort to fix it on my own before I inevitably come crawling back.

Massive thank you to you all gentlemen! 

[LimaZuluTango]

I am back once more, and with a new issue!

So the tension trouble I was having has mutated into another kind but still recognizably similar.

Now I get 4 stitches that look great, and then 4 rubbish ones. And repeat.

Any ideas? Once again, don't dismiss anything as being "too basic or stupid to fix". I'd have it upside down if it wasn't for the arrows on the box.

[Northmount]

18 hours ago, LimaZuluTango said:

Any ideas? Once again, don't dismiss anything as being "too basic or stupid to fix". I'd have it upside down if it wasn't for the arrows on the box.

I'm no expert with sewing machines so take this with a grain of salt. 

The holes look too large, so maybe try a smaller needle size.  Also looks like you could use a little more tension on the top and bottom. 

Does the other side look the same?

[Uwe]

Getting the knot to be consistently in the middle of the material is a delicate balancing act. Both top and bottom tension have to be close and consistent. There are lots of ways to mess with the consistency part. Anything that increases or decrease either top or bottom tension momentarily may cause knots to show on the top or bottom.

Since the up/down pattern looks to be about the length of one bobbing winding, that’s where I’d look first. 

Sources of momentary tension changes (not in any particular order):

1. Spool unwinds unevenly, perhaps due to a sock, or lack thereof

2. Hole on arm above spool is not directly above the spool, causing non-symmetrical unwinding

3. The thread is springy and wants to coil around something

4. Poorly wound bobbin (a crowd favorite!), perhaps try a pre-wound bobbin as reference?

5. Dangling thread end under the bobbin catches something on every turn

6. Bobbin itself has a burr that catches on something with every turn

7. Leather is a natural material and not consistently thick/hard/scarred/lumpy, etc.

8. Needle tip geometry may cause variations in the exit hole on the bottom, changing how hard it is to pull the knot into the material

9. Needle size is incorrect, increasing the odds of problems

10. Lumpy thread

11. Neutrinos zipping through the earth

 

Pull slowly on the bobbin thread and feel for tension changes as the bobbin unwinds. If it feels uneven, that’s a problem. Same for the top thread, remove from eye of the needle and pull slowly. If it feels uneven, that’s a problem.

Edited July 3 by Uwe

[LimaZuluTango]

On 7/3/2024 at 7:45 PM, Uwe said:

Getting the knot to be consistently in the middle of the material is a delicate balancing act. Both top and bottom tension have to be close and consistent. There are lots of ways to mess with the consistency part. Anything that increases or decrease either top or bottom tension momentarily may cause knots to show on the top or bottom.

Since the up/down pattern looks to be about the length of one bobbing winding, that’s where I’d look first. 

Sources of momentary tension changes (not in any particular order):

1. Spool unwinds unevenly, perhaps due to a sock, or lack thereof

2. Hole on arm above spool is not directly above the spool, causing non-symmetrical unwinding

3. The thread is springy and wants to coil around something

4. Poorly wound bobbin (a crowd favorite!), perhaps try a pre-wound bobbin as reference?

5. Dangling thread end under the bobbin catches something on every turn

6. Bobbin itself has a burr that catches on something with every turn

7. Leather is a natural material and not consistently thick/hard/scarred/lumpy, etc.

8. Needle tip geometry may cause variations in the exit hole on the bottom, changing how hard it is to pull the knot into the material

9. Needle size is incorrect, increasing the odds of problems

10. Lumpy thread

11. Neutrinos zipping through the earth

 

Pull slowly on the bobbin thread and feel for tension changes as the bobbin unwinds. If it feels uneven, that’s a problem. Same for the top thread, remove from eye of the needle and pull slowly. If it feels uneven, that’s a problem.

A crowd favorite indeed!

I tried another bobbin and it worked perfectly! Once again I am very thankful to you sir.

And now for the next problem! (I feel like a quizmaster)

 

When I backstitch I get a ball of thread underneath and it only takes "half" steps because it keep getting pulled (probably by the ball underneath).

The first picture shows the ball as seen on the underside.

The second is the top side and the thread on the left is the backstitch and as you can see it's much tighter.

I humbly ask for additional help.

(Never buying anything without a proper manual again.)

[Northmount]

2 hours ago, LimaZuluTango said:

When I backstitch I get a ball of thread underneath and it only takes "half" steps because it keep getting pulled (probably by the ball underneath).

The first picture shows the ball as seen on the underside.

The second is the top side and the thread on the left is the backstitch and as you can see it's much tighter.

If you reverse before the hook has caught the loop, it will at the minimum skip a stitch.  For many machines, the needle should rise 1/4" or so before you reverse.  (Same when turning sharp corners.)

[Uwe]

The Adler 269 is a very nice design and generally a great machine. Don’t let the startup issues get you down. 

There may be multiple things going on:

First, your hook-to-needle timing may be off a little. Forward is more forgiving than reverse. In my experience, if machine sews well in reverse then it almost always also sews well forward. The opposite is not true. Carefully timing the hook and checking reverse in the process should help with that problem. Not only does the needle need to pick up the thread reliably, the hook also needs to let go of the thread when the thread take-up lever start pulling up. Sometimes forward is fine, and in reverse all hell breaks loose , the thread snags on the hook tab, or the hook gib doesn’t let go of the thread soon enough - all of these things cause loops on the bottom, A small amount of retarding or advancing hook timing should resolve that.

Second, it looks like your feed timing/balancing may be off, the reverse stitch length should match forward. If your machine has adjustable hard stops at the top and/or bottom of the reverse lever slot, make sure they’re are not causing the problem with short reverse stitches. The manual doesn’t specifically address stitch balance, but in general, if you have maximum stitch length dialed in and the needle is in hook timing position, flipping the reverse lever up and down should NOT move the needle. Small adjustments of the feed eccentric on the top shaft should correct any unwanted movement.

 

The Adler 269 service manual  ( Durkopp_Adler_269_instructions_for_service.pdf  ) should apply to your machine, go through it in sequence verify the various “rules” or reference positions it describes. Make adjustments if needed. Normally the dealer does this, they may have missed a few steps. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5 by Uwe