Leather Weight for Lined Holsters.

[Latigo Smith]

I've just made an account on this website, as I'm just now getting back into leatherwork after many years of being away from it due to far too many other projects. Years ago, the holsters I made were unlined, but I plan to make my holsters lined with veg-tan going forward. Once I get back in the groove of it (as I'm a tad rusty, I'm sure), I'll also be making holsters to sell as a business venture. I have a few questions regarding the optimal weight of leather to use for such a purpose. For reference, I'll be making holsters primarily for full size handguns such as the Colt Gov't .45 and Super .38, Browning Hi-Power, Browning Sig BDA .45, Smith 59, Smith N-Frames, Colt Python and also some medium frame revolvers such as Ruger Security, Service and Speed Six's, Smith K-Frames as well as Colt Mk. III's and Official Police.  As such, I'm looking for a leather weight that will provide good stiffness to firmly support the handgun and that will not allow the gun to flex the holster with use, yet while still being able to, with some effort, achieve good detail molding to relieve pressure off the high edges of the gun for the purpose of helping to preserve bluing. 

 

I've read from many members on this site that a lined holster consisting of 2 layers of equal weight veg-tan laminated with a good contact cement such as Weldwood will be stiffer and more rigid than an unlined holster of similar thickness. As such I was planning on using two layers of 4/5oz for this purpose, as I tend to like 8/9oz or 9/10oz for an unlined holster, depending on the size and weight of the gun.

 

However, I read something from a man whose expertise I trust which stated that the opposite is the case, meaning that a lined holster will be softer and less rigid than an unlined holster of similar thickness due to the leather's temper. It's from a 1981 article titled "Holster Linings: Hidden Protection", written by Richard D.E. Nichols, the former head of R&D at Bianchi International.  Here's the quote;

"The cowhide lined holster has more body, stiffness and rigidity than the suede lined or unlined holster. It also tends to be the bulkiest of the three. Because of a leather property called temper, a lined holster is not merely two thin layers that equal an unlined holster's thickness. A heavy duty unlined holster might be made of 10 ounce leather, which is around 3/16" thick. However, comparable cowhide lined holsters would be two layers of 7 ounce, which is a bit less than 1/4" thick. The difference is caused by leather's tendency to become stiffer as it's made thicker. This stiffness or temper equates to body for the holster. Using the above example again, two layers of 5 ounce might be the same thickness as the single piece of 10 ounce, but would be much softer and less durable."

 

 

I have a tendency to trust Mr. Nichols' advice, given that he has likely created more successful holsters designs than any other one person, between his 17 years at Bianchi during the companies' peak and his design work for many other gunleather companies in the 38 years since Bianchi was sold. Yet, I also trust the advice of many of the members on this website.

 

I've considered the possibility that the cause for this difference of experiences with lined holsters could be the adhesive used to laminate the two layers of leather together. In the article mentioned above, there's a photograph of a lined holster having glue applied to it's layers at the Bianchi factory, and while it's difficult to accurately identify the type of glue being used, it appears to be of a thinner and smoother consistency than contact cement, and as such I'm wondering if they used a glue that's less stiff and rigid than contact cement once cured. I'll be attempting to contact Mr. Nichols shortly for the purpose of asking him what glue they used at Bianchi, but until then it's just a guess.

 

I'd be appreciative for the opinions on this matter from the kind people of this forum. In particular, I'd be very interested to hear the opinion of Mr. Dwight, whom I know for a fact makes quite a number of lined holsters. I know the smartest option is to experiment with making lined holsters using different weight leathers to determine which will work best. But, I'd still like to have a general idea of what weight I should be using beforehand just to get me in the ballpark. Thank you. 

[chuck123wapati]

my two cents.

The temper of a given piece of leather is affected by numerous variables, including the Type of cow, tanning processes/tannery, and where it is taken from on the hide (i.e., belly or back), and construction techniques are just a partial list of the possibilities. So to make an absolute statement on which is stiffer is silly at best. Given that you want a guaranteed optimal outcome, you will have to do some real-life testing to eliminate as many of those variables as possible. Use specific parts of the hide, specific tannery's, and be very precise with your construction, including the addition of liquors/oils during the finishing stages. Some folks use a thick outer layer with a thin liner, some use two equal-thickness pieces because they can get them from the same hide, thinking it makes construction costs less or easier in some way. Whether one method is better is again debatable and susceptible to the variables. Bianchi probably can handle the cost of more waste than you at the beginning, so they can get refined and consistent results. we, as small batch folks, need to be much more selective to compete.

Contact cement can be diluted and made thinner with acetone. Bianchi probably figured out it goes farther and dries faster that way.

Good luck to you. I can't wait to see your stuff.

[AlZilla]

Red Nichols, as I recall, recommends horse butt strips. I've been trying to find the post over on the Smith & Wesson forum where he talked about it. I'll keep looking.

[wizard of tragacanth]

Welcome to the forum! Interesting first post.

There are many factors affecting the stiffness of the finished project. I have often wondered about the mineral content of the water that is used for wet forming, e.g. high minerals vs distilled? I have never tested this though. So, lazy!

[Dwight]

9 hours ago, Latigo Smith said:

..................."The cowhide lined holster has more body, stiffness and rigidity than the suede lined or unlined holster. It also tends to be the bulkiest of the three. Because of a leather property called temper, a lined holster is not merely two thin layers that equal an unlined holster's thickness. A heavy duty unlined holster might be made of 10 ounce leather, which is around 3/16" thick. However, comparable cowhide lined holsters would be two layers of 7 ounce, which is a bit less than 1/4" thick. The difference is caused by leather's tendency to become stiffer as it's made thicker. This stiffness or temper equates to body for the holster. Using the above example again, two layers of 5 ounce might be the same thickness as the single piece of 10 ounce, but would be much softer and less durable."..............

I am going to give this man or the scribe who wrote this . . . a get out of jail card.  The last sentence is totally . . . completely . . . dumber than a cracked rock . . . WRONG !!

The get out of jail card says they simply made an editing mistake . . . or were talking without thinking . . . the statement is totally wrong.

A holster made for example out of one single piece of 12 oz veg tanned leather will be a stiff holster. . . . no doubt.

But if you take two pieces of 6 oz . . . (piece # 1) one with the exact design and dimensions of the original 12 oz . . . and a (piece # 2) second piece that is about 3/8 inch longer and wider than the first one . . . and you make a holster out of this . . . it will be MUCH stronger . . . MUCH  more durable . . . and will retain it's strength for years . . . after the first is a flat plie of trash leather . . . looking for a scrap heap to jump into.

You make the first piece so that it is cut from the original pattern . . . but cut with the flesh side facing up and the pattern laying on it. 

The second is cut with the hair side facing up and the added 3/8 inch added to the original pattern.

Take this first piece . . . dampen it substantially . . . and roll it  into the general shape the holster body would need . . . let it dry.  

Add contact cement to the flesh sides of each piece . . . let it get dry enough that there is only a very slight tacky feeling to the touch.

lay the second piece on the table . . . hair side down . . . and using the edge of the barrel that houses the sight track . . . gently put the sight track of the first piece down onto the second piece . . . get a good contact . . . and roll it a bit from side to side.  Keep working until you have the stitch edge in your left hand . . . the holster basically squeezed together.  

This is the process that makes the strongest and most durable holster out there . . . made entirely of leather.  Some folks add a metal lining between the two pieces of leather or a piece of kydex.  I've never found a need for it.  And again . . . that is in full defiance of the last sentence I highlighted for your understanding.  As printed, that statement is not worth a pothole in the middle of an airport runway.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited 7 hours ago by Dwight

[dikman]

I've only made a few Western-style holsters so I have limited experience but I would have to question that article, it seems to me he is making a blanket statement that he considers fact when in reality there are lots of variables when dealing with leather. My first couple of holsters were made using fairly light leather (I can't remember the weight) with two layers glued back-to-back. By the time I'd finished they were rigid, and still are. I progressed to using the same weight for the liner but a slightly heavier weight for the outside, only because I thought it looked better. I noticed he mentioned using a suede liner, that is going to be softer than a "normal" hide so won't add much to the overall stiffness. Also, leather that is wet-formed tends to gain stiffness.

The best thing you can do is try different combinations to work out what style you like and whether lined or unlined works best for you, but at the end of the day the customer will determine which style you make. 

[Latigo Smith]

Thank you very much for the replies, everybody. 

 

Chuck, I agree that experimenting with different weights to find what works best is the way to go. I'll probably try to find a decent source for smaller panel-type cuts of Hermann Oak for trial holster purposes. Since I use leather around 4/5oz for shoulder holster straps, and the 8/9 or 9/10oz stuff for unlined holsters, about the only use I'll have for the medium weight stuff would be for the lined holsters, so I'd certainly like to find the ideal weight for it before I invest in multiple sides for lined holsters. 

 

ALZilla, I'm sure Mr. Nichols does recommend horsehide, for the reason that he's been fascinated by Seventrees holsters since roughly 1970, and Seventrees used horsehide nearly exclusively for their holsters. I've heard very interesting things about using horsehide for holsters, namely that the flesh side is nearly as smooth as the hair side, and that once a horsehide holster has been wet molded and dried it becomes about as rigid as kydex. I'd be interested to try it out if I could find a source for it. 

 

Mr. Tragacanth, I've never considered whether the mineral content of the water used for wet molding could have an effect on the rigidity of the leather, but it very well could. That'd be an interesting test, trying pieces from the same cut of leather using distilled, spring and tap water. 

 

Dwight, I was sure this was the case, but I'm very glad to get your opinion on the matter. I'm not really sure what happened there when Mr. Nichols wrote that passage, as he really is quite knowledgeable. That's why I wondered if there was some variable or combination of variables that caused this to be Mr. Nichols firsthand experience making lined holsters, but I'm not sure what that could be. In any case, I do have a few more questions for you about your process for making lined holsters.

Do you find that pre-bending the outer layer before glue up as you describe gives you better results than gluing the layers flat and folding the holster afterwards? I had figured on gluing the layers flat and setting one of my granite tooling slabs on it while the contact cement cures, as I thought that weighing it down real good would help to create a stronger bond. But I know that a number of people pre-bend their lined holsters to prevent the liner layer from wrinkling when the holster is folded. Have you found wrinkling to be a problem when cementing the layers flat and bending the holster after the cement is cured? 

 

Also, regarding the weight of leather used, in reading some of your various older posts on this subject, I've read that you've used two layers of 4/5oz, 5/6 oz and 6/7 oz. Which of these weights do you find produces the best balance of stiffness and moldability for you? 

[Stetson912]

Chris Andre does his with 2 layers of equal weight. I do this when I want a lined holster and I can say it is very stiff. My method is different than Dwight. I just glue 2 layers together and treat it as I would normally. 

I haven't read the article but I do know bianchi was a fan of using suede linings, in which case would be lighter in weight and adhered to the heavier holster body. 

I'd recommend 2 layers if 4/5 oz for owb and 3/4 for iwb.