Linen thread

[JamesR]

I am new to this site so let me say "Greetings to all."

I am an amateur leatherworker and would like to get better at hand stitching.

So far I have only used synthetic threads. I see that many of you use linen. Could someone tell me what are the objective reasons for using linen. I understand it can rot, but so can the leather. I would like to just buy a large roll of 5 cord (that is another question) and be done with it. I make quivers, knife sheaths, armguards. Any advice as to the pros and cons of linen would be most appreciated. Thank You.

Jim

[barra]

Quickuns off the top of my head.

Linen is a natural fibre and not subject to sunlight degredation like a lot of synthetics.

It is stronger when wet as the natural fibres swell up. Ever tried to undo a knot in a wet rope.

When hand stitching you need to get a nice long taper on the end of your thread so that when you wax it and place a needle on the end your not left with a bump behind the needle forcing you to use pliers every stitch. This taper can be made by scraping a knife blade over the end of the thread. You will then see fibres being pulled off. When waxed you have this tapered thread.

Linen Does not stretch. The stitches pull up tight and stay tight.

Linen is twice as strong as cotton.

Barra

Edited March 26, 2009 by barra

[celticleather]

I would totally endorse Barra's comments, and just add another thought.

A problem with synthetic threads is their strength! There is a danger that they can be pulled up so tight that the stitch cuts through the leather like a cheese-wire, and overtightening can also cause 'rippling' along the stitch line.

Using a natural fibre tends to teach a gentler touch, without compromising the strength of the finished product.

[JamesR]

I would totally endorse Barra's comments, and just add another thought.

A problem with synthetic threads is their strength! There is a danger that they can be pulled up so tight that the stitch cuts through the leather like a cheese-wire, and overtightening can also cause 'rippling' along the stitch line.

Using a natural fibre tends to teach a gentler touch, without compromising the strength of the finished product.

Celticleather,

I always wondered about that. It seems that synthetic would be more suitable to heavy nylon fabrics or webbing. I do pull my stitches tight and I probably have cut into the leather and weakened it.

I guess this issue of rot keeps coming up in my mind, although I wonder which rots first the leather or linen. The other thing is resistance to abrasion. If you can not set the stitches deep enough in a stitch groove than maybe the synthetic holds up better?

[tonyc1]

I always used linen in the Pearsons as I reckoned there was too much stretch in the synthetics and no stretch in linen, it was dead.. It is a long way from the thread clamp to the stitch with the Pearsons and there was a fair bit of stretch with nylon. I seemed to get a much more even stitch with linen thread.

I use a lot of nylon with the PVC webbing articles as it does stand up to abrasive wear and tear better than linen, cotton or polyester.

Tony.

[jimsaddler]

Quickuns off the top of my head.

Linen is a natural fibre and not subject to sunlight degredation like a lot of synthetics.

It is stronger when wet as the natural fibres swell up. Ever tried to undo a knot in a wet rope.

When hand stitching you need to get a nice long taper on the end of your thread so that when you wax it and place a needle on the end your not left with a bump behind the needle forcing you to use pliers every stitch. This taper can be made by scraping a knife blade over the end of the thread. You will then see fibres being pulled off. When waxed you have this tapered thread.

Linen Does not stretch. The stitches pull up tight and stay tight.

Linen is twice as strong as cotton.

Barra

I totally agree with Barra.

For hand sewing Linen takes a lot of beating. If properly waxed it will out last Synthetics. I've been arround long enough to see the difference now 10 to 20 years is all that you can reliably get from Synthetics. I've had to replace stitching that was done by me in as short a time as 7 years using Polyester Blended Thread. Whereas I have never had a Linen Thread fail in nearly 50 years of stitching. Also there are more Dead Sailors (below the surface stitches) with Synthetics owing to the stretch factor pulling tight (overtensioning) when the next stitch is done. Please remember to use "S" twist threads so that your stitches don't unravel as you sew.

Linen doesn't rot if prepared properly with Beeswax & Resin. Case in point My great Grandfather Sewed Traces in 1927 I put a new end on in 1979, the Stitches were so hard to remove after all of that time, only the Leather broke not the thread! He used 2 ounces of Resin to 3/4 lb of Washed Bees wax meleted to-gether (with a touch of Linseed oil or castor Oil in winter).

Rub this into the thread until the friction melts it into the thread. Oh yes point your thread first before waxing.

Remeber "S" twist thread not Z twist.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[SteveBrambley]

I've been experimenting, recently, with waxed linen thread and our Singer 45K25 and one of our 45Ksv100 corner/box stitchers. Not that they don't work fine with bonded nylon, I just thought that these machines would have been originally designed to use linen, so I was interested to see if there was any difference. I found that, in fact, the stitch does appear tighter and less likely to loosen when you back tack, and, though it may be my imagination, the machines do seem happier with the linen.

However, the pre-waxed thread, I have been using, does require a bit of adjustment on the tension, as the 'stickiness' of the wax tends to increase both the top and bobbin tensions, and the wax may cause other problems later.

Steve

[barra]

Whithout trying to divert the thread away from linen and hand stitching. While my stitcher handles the bonded threads fine, when I put linen thru it you can almost here a sigh of relief. It definately likes linen better.

Back to hand stitching with linen.

Barra

[Kevinjohnson]

What's the best source for linen thread? Also, refresh me on the cord to #'s conversion, ie. 6 cord=277 and so on. Most of the linen thread is prewaxed? Lastly, I asume that an Adler 205-400 would handle linen thread? Thanks KJ

[ChuckBurrows]

What's the best source for linen thread? Also, refresh me on the cord to #'s conversion, ie. 6 cord=277 and so on. Most of the linen thread is prewaxed? Lastly, I asume that an Adler 205-400 would handle linen thread? Thanks KJ

Not sure if it's the "best" source .......Linen Thread - 5 cord left or right hand twist is a good all purpose handsewing thread for pieces smaller than a saddle:

Campbell- Bosworth: http://campbell-bosworth.com/catalog/advan...?keywords=linen

- I have not used the less expensive Hungarian thread myself, but reports that I have received from others who have who's opinions on such matters I resepct, state that it just fine - a harder lay though - and costs half as much as the Barbour's. 5 cord left or right hand twist is a good all purpose handsewing thread for pieces smaller than a saddle or harness

Linen doesn't rot if prepared properly with Beeswax & Resin. Case in point My great Grandfather Sewed Traces in 1927 I put a new end on in 1979, the Stitches were so hard to remove after all of that time, only the Leather broke not the thread!

That brings back memories - I've "picked" a lot of old thread and have to agree that properly treated linen seldom rots and when either it or the leather does it's due to factors such as salt from sweat, acids such as urine, or mis-care such as over oiling - all are due to improper long term care

[JamesR]

I totally agree with Barra.

For hand sewing Linen takes a lot of beating. If properly waxed it will out last Synthetics. I've been arround long enough to see the difference now 10 to 20 years is all that you can reliably get from Synthetics. I've had to replace stitching that was done by me in as short a time as 7 years using Polyester Blended Thread. Whereas I have never had a Linen Thread fail in nearly 50 years of stitching. Also there are more Dead Sailors (below the surface stitches) with Synthetics owing to the stretch factor pulling tight (overtensioning) when the next stitch is done. Please remember to use "S" twist threads so that your stitches don't unravel as you sew.

Linen doesn't rot if prepared properly with Beeswax & Resin. Case in point My great Grandfather Sewed Traces in 1927 I put a new end on in 1979, the Stitches were so hard to remove after all of that time, only the Leather broke not the thread! He used 2 ounces of Resin to 3/4 lb of Washed Bees wax meleted to-gether (with a touch of Linseed oil or castor Oil in winter).

Rub this into the thread until the friction melts it into the thread. Oh yes point your thread first before waxing.

Remeber "S" twist thread not Z twist.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

Jim,

Thank you for the good info, I have been working with leather and synthetics

for a few years but I have a lot to learn. You say I should use "S" twist but what about direction, left and right twist? I am lefthanded does the direction of twist matter? Thanks in advance.

Jim

PS I a "dead sailor" the result of the leather being sliced through by the stitching?

[JamesR]

Not sure if it's the "best" source .......Linen Thread - 5 cord left or right hand twist is a good all purpose handsewing thread for pieces smaller than a saddle:

Campbell- Bosworth: http://campbell-bosworth.com/catalog/advan...?keywords=linen

- I have not used the less expensive Hungarian thread myself, but reports that I have received from others who have who's opinions on such matters I resepct, state that it just fine - a harder lay though - and costs half as much as the Barbour's. 5 cord left or right hand twist is a good all purpose handsewing thread for pieces smaller than a saddle or harness

That brings back memories - I've "picked" a lot of old thread and have to agree that properly treated linen seldom rots and when either it or the leather does it's due to factors such as salt from sweat, acids such as urine, or mis-care such as over oiling - all are due to improper long term care

Chuck,

I checked campbell-bosworth's site and see Barbours #5 cord. Do you know if this is a "S" twist thread?

[tonyc1]

I wonder if there is a site on the 'net that gives conversions between metric and other threads like nylon and lines and poly.

Tony.

[jimsaddler]

Jim,

Thank you for the good info, I have been working with leather and synthetics

for a few years but I have a lot to learn. You say I should use "S" twist but what about direction, left and right twist? I am lefthanded does the direction of twist matter? Thanks in advance.

Jim

PS I a "dead sailor" the result of the leather being sliced through by the stitching?

Hey James

I've got to eat my words eh. "S" right hand Twist is for Right Handed Sewers, "Z" left hand Twist is for Left Handed Sewers. What happens is as you sew there is a tendency for the Thread to unravel if you use the wrong twist. This gives a lot of trouble with the thread looking straggly where it shows.

Yes Dead Sailors are buried below the surface at Sea aren't they? Hence a stitch buried below the surface is a Dead Sailor, The big no no of Hand Sewing. Linen is not abrasive so is less likely to break the Grain.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[JamesR]

Hey James

I've got to eat my words eh. "S" right hand Twist is for Right Handed Sewers, "Z" left hand Twist is for Left Handed Sewers. What happens is as you sew there is a tendency for the Thread to unravel if you use the wrong twist. This gives a lot of trouble with the thread looking straggly where it shows.

Yes Dead Sailors are buried below the surface at Sea aren't they? Hence a stitch buried below the surface is a Dead Sailor, The big no no of Hand Sewing. Linen is not abrasive so is less likely to break the Grain.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

Jim,

So I guess as a left handed sewer I should buy Z twist? I guess I am not experienced enough to see this but why would it make a difference? Is it because a lefty stabs the holes from the left side?

I do not mean to beat a dead horse here but I would very much like to understand what is happening and why. Thanks again for your patience.

Jim

[jimsaddler]

I wonder if there is a site on the 'net that gives conversions between metric and other threads like nylon and lines and poly.

Tony.

Hi Tony

I still get confused with threads. I brought up in cords and then numbers came in and now there are deniers. I think that some one is trying to confuse me. Well 6 to 8 cord are for very heavy work, I use a 5 cord (#15 hemp) as normal sewing thread for hand sewing, 4 cord for nice strong 8 or 9 Stitches per inch, 3 cord for Show work at 10 to 12 SPI. But then we have the #12 Hemp that is marketed to us to-day (against our will) which is a bit too heavy for best Sewing, gets a bit too lumpy for tp sewing and then #2 Common Hemp for good strong Sewing. So based on the cord system the Linin threads were simple work our and use.

Then came in the Poly blends #8 #12 #18 #20 # 30 #36 & #40, so #8 was for Pearson 6, heavy work like Traces, #12 & 18 went well in the 45K25 #20 in the Pearson A1 for nice Winker and Saddle Borders and etc.

Now come the Deniers and I'm lost. So I pick up the thread manual and read off the numbers and hope I didn't make a mistake in ordering. It would be nice if Practical people not Expurts gave us a simple scale of sizes that was easy to understand.

The same thing happened to our Saddle & Harness Buckles when the Metric rip off came in Australia. The expurts metricated them to scale and there has been a problem ever since. Of course when you scale down to metric you must take off the length ad depth as well as the width. So a one inch double Swage for instance got shorter in the process and suddenly we were told it is right to do so, only problem was that now a strap wouldn't fit easily in the Buckle any more. Only took centuries to learn what was the right balance for the job.

By the way you kmow the definition of an Epert don't you? X is an unknown quantity and Spurt is a Drip under Pressure.

Goodnight .

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[jimsaddler]

Jim,

So I guess as a left handed sewer I should buy Z twist? I guess I am not experienced enough to see this but why would it make a difference? Is it because a lefty stabs the holes from the left side?

I do not mean to beat a dead horse here but I would very much like to understand what is happening and why. Thanks again for your patience.

Jim

Note when you use a Sewing machine you mostly have to use Z twist or it unravels and breaks or gnarls. The same happens when you stitch from the other side. when a lefty makes a thread a righty can't use it and vice versa. years ago I had a situation in a Football Factory where the Thread maker was a Lefty and there were a lot of problems with his threads. The Girls had tangles and breakages alll the time. Changed to a right hand thread maker and production went up, no breakages or tangles.

So the answer is in the flick of the wrist.

Kindest regards.

Jim.

[JamesR]

Note when you use a Sewing machine you mostly have to use Z twist or it unravels and breaks or gnarls. The same happens when you stitch from the other side. when a lefty makes a thread a righty can't use it and vice versa. years ago I had a situation in a Football Factory where the Thread maker was a Lefty and there were a lot of problems with his threads. The Girls had tangles and breakages alll the time. Changed to a right hand thread maker and production went up, no breakages or tangles.

So the answer is in the flick of the wrist.

Kindest regards.

Jim.

Jim,

I guess I am lost now, maybe its the way a lefty twists the thread when its put through the needle? I could just try both S and Z and see what happens but the stuff is expensive.

Jim

[Suze]

look on some spinners sites and they will have a good explination about S and Z twist threads

but the basic idea is that when you pull the thread through "whatever" (I'm a cloth junkie) you will either be working WITH the twist and it will stay --- OR --- you will be working AGAINST the twist and it will untwist itself giving you snarls and tangles and a "whole new vocabulary"

that is why when doing embroidry you should alway make sure your thread comes off of the spool in the same direction (thread the part that comes off of the spool first)

Hope that helped a tiny bit.

[Grunt]

OK, here's my question. I just bought a new sewing machine, The Cobra 3/Artisan3000. My question is what linen threads, size and twist, can I / should I use?

[Kevin]

In my experience, if you want to use linen thread in a machine, you have to run it through liquid wax. Do you have a waxpot on your machine?

When I got my Adler from Weaver's, the nylon thread I got from them was like yarn and looked like crap, so I ran it through wax and it worked beautifully, I could even use a smaller size needle, it lubed the thread so well. Now I would say it's been at least 5 years since I used wax and I still haven't gotten all the wax off my machine. I would not recommend linen in a modern design machine.

Perhaps though, there is some other method I don't know of, I do live in an insulated small little world of my own.

Kevin

[SteveBrambley]

The linen thread I tried was pre-waxed, intended for hand sewing. I only tried it on the older machines, but I don't see any reason for it not working on more modern types.

Steve