Vegan (sort of) Leather

[steve mason]

Can you guys hear yourselves?

Whatever happened to 'live and let live'?

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread. I think Noah has been treated very rudely by some of the members here. I can't believe how harsh and judgemental some of you can be. Frankly it's open abuse of Noah and his partner. Who are you to judge relationships and to comment on someone's personal beliefs? I doubt you'd take the same abuse about yours quietly.

Kevin Johnson, Steve Mason and TKleather1.... You owe Noah and his partner an apology.

I joined this board because of the spirit of friendship and brother/sisterhood and the spirit of sharing I saw here.

This is very disappointing. I'm surprised and shocked by the outpouring of venom here.

An apology is in order.

Karl

Karl, my post was in reply to a quote from Johanna about PETA, not from something that Noah said. "I could go on for hours with stories of PETA" Johanna

PS: I changed my mind, I don't want to use the PETA founders hide for an inliad seat on my saddle, I want my hide to be tanned so I can be used as a padded seat on a barrel racers saddle so that I can be between the two things I like best, good lookin wimmin and good horse flesh!!!

Edited March 27, 2009 by steve mason

[oldtimer]

Sorry, I misread another topic: vegan-retan latigo ! I apologise !

/ Knut

[charley]

Can you guys hear yourselves?

Whatever happened to 'live and let live'?

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread. I think Noah has been treated very rudely by some of the members here. I can't believe how harsh and judgemental some of you can be. Frankly it's open abuse of Noah and his partner. Who are you to judge relationships and to comment on someone's personal beliefs? I doubt you'd take the same abuse about yours quietly.

Kevin Johnson, Steve Mason and TKleather1.... You owe Noah and his partner an apology.

I joined this board because of the spirit of friendship and brother/sisterhood and the spirit of sharing I saw here.

This is very disappointing. I'm surprised and shocked by the outpouring of venom here.

An apology is in order.

Noah,

I'm very sorry to read the crap that's been posted about you and your partner

Please, please don't assume we're all like this. Please PM me, I may be able to help.

Cheers,

Karl

I'm going to have to "second" Badger on this one. I think Noah asked an honest question, and the thread kind of shifted into a non-constructive direction.

I like stereotypical humor, irreverance, and non-PC language. However, I think we can focus on the topic itself (and less so on the person that asked an honest question).

Shifting directions, I've long thought about "tooling" synthetic materials. Plastics, waxes, and other assorted polymers come to mind. (Big topic, I should probably start it on another thread.) HOWEVER, the "natural" product of leather is a fantastic material that is really hard to duplicate (multi-layered, highly differentiated cells that lattice into a fibrous network that provides great strength and resistance to wear). That's REALLY hard to duplicate in an artificial way.

There is MUCH work on synthetic skin growth (for example, for commercial production and use by burn victims), where real skin is "grown" on a substrate (not even on an animal). In fact, for much of this, it starts with a "donor" sample from the individual (so you're actually growing sheets of YOU to be transplanted back onto YOU).

Big topic, but in summary, probably none of these options are viable right now for consideration in leatherwork. There are large advances being made in synthetic materials by materials science (for example, driven by new fields emerging from nano-tech), but probably synthetic leather is NOT something we can expect in the next few years (probably more than a decade away).

On the bright side, people ARE working on this, and as a hobbyist I'm experimenting with tooling non-leather materials. I don't have any suggestions for the short-term, though. From a practical standpoint, yes, leather is a "waste" product from the meat industry, and we all generally like to recycle or be more efficient when we can.

--charley

[AgronZoti]

Guys be nice…

The only thing you can try to find is animals that have to be put down because there are to many of them… you can reason that these animals are going to get killed no matter what and the skins might as well go to a good cause. And the only animals that I can think of are kangaroos from reservations in Australia. You can find ethical and government approved kangaroo hides. Plus the money goes to the reservation so the kangaroos can live natural lives… plus kangaroo is the strongest leather there is but its pricey

Animal parks and such stuff were they have to put animals down is your best bet to find hides… and talk to your girlfriend if she is cool with that…

[rawhide1]

NoahL

Hell I'm sorry!! I went and stood in the corner for 5min.

Kevin I don't care who ya are that was funny!!!

I'll stand in the corner another 5min.

Mike

[tonyc1]

There are no reservations here for raising 'roo! They don't need to do that, as they are everywhere. They are even in some small towns. There are millions across the country. We live about 20 mile from the capital city and we get wallaby in the paddocks and sometimes in the yard. Last year 2 of us shot 1500 of them about 1 mile from my house and hardly made a dent in their numbers. The meat is used for pet food but we do eat a few of them ourselves.

It is good leather.

Tony.

[analogphotographer]

I hope you are not offended by my above post,i respect your girlfriends views and find it admirable that you are trying to find a way to enjoy your new hobby with her in mind.I wish i had an answer for you,i should not have posted as it was not an answer to your original post.Hope it all works out for you.

[Tkleather1]

Guys be nice…

The only thing you can try to find is animals that have to be put down because there are to many of them… you can reason that these animals are going to get killed no matter what and the skins might as well go to a good cause.

Yeah Like a cow!! I am sorry I should not have gone about it this way but the dang PETA people have done too many things to this country and the farmers and ranchers who started this country.

so noah I am sorry But I do not agree with any of the values that were brought up in your post and I too will stand in the corner for 10 minutes.

[Kevinjohnson]

I refuse to apologize

[badger]

Kevin,

You are entiltled to your views, Noah and his partner is to hers.

He did not come here soliciting opinions on his or her beliefs or lifestyle, simply to ask a reasonable question of a board of fellow leatherworkers.

He came looking for help, and instead got blasted with what I consider the most offensive unprovoked attack I've witnessed on the internet.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say that you arrive at Leatherworker.net, having heard of the almost legendary goodwill surrounding this amazing board, and ask a reasonable question of reasonable people. What you get instead of a calm, reasoned and useful answer is a vicious attack by an insensetive, loudmouthed yahoo hell bent on destroying and ridiculing everything he doesn't understand.

'Fear and loathing' is a phrase coined by Hunter Thompson to decribe what happened to him when he encountered the same thing. I feel it appropriate here.

How would you have felt if that had happened to you a mere 20 days ago when you first turned up here?

It takes a big man to apologise Kevin. I quote; 'Grow a sack'.

Karl

[UKRay]

After re-reading this thread a number of times I can see my comment wasn't even slightly helpful, sorry if it offended you Noah. I was simply trying to think laterally as the two skills are closely linked.

[carr52]

Good luck Noah, you'll need it in this relationship.

Tom

[flyingcuda]

what a thread! the pure passion of beliefs! not a wonder we see all the incredible art here. unfortunatly i don't think there will ever be a winner in this. animals have always and more than likely always will be used for our needs...sad but true. perhaps if your girlfriend can see it in a different way.... they are going to be killed regardless..no matter what she or anyone believes....instead of the hides going to waste..you can take it and create something beautiful in honour of the animal...not trying to be corny..but seriously..if she can see the beauty in it..she may be able to accept it better. the feel and the smell of leather is almost intoxicating. we take pictures of the ones we love...to preserve what they have contributed to our lives. when we lose someone...do we burn those photos? we are honouring the animals by making something useful from what they left behind. sorry..going way off direction here. it's great that you want to make your girlfriend happy...but don't let her dictate what you do, life is too short...good luck and don't let the passions of others dictate what you do either...don't be angry with the folks who got carried away here...they love what they do and perhaps they felt attacked too. let us know how this turns out for you...best of luck

linda

[electrathon]

I am rather embarased by some of the responses here too. Badger is spot on.

Noah, I thought of this last night. Would it be an option if you found/used salvage leather? Leather that was reused from other projects or was bought at a thrift store? A purse made in the 70's might have a piece of usable leather on it. Things like that.

Aaron

[gnarls]

Noah: Not sure what is in your area, but there are times when animals have to be put done for health reasons and not for meat and the hides may be available if you can do the tanning. the towns around us had to thin down the deer pop[ulation in towns for that reason was not for meat, not sure if that would be acceptable for you to use. game and fish department may know of somthing. you local vets that have to put animals down. hope you can find somthing that works for the both of you.

[2MadJacks]

Noah,

I think it is nice that you try and please your lady. She sounds like a good girl or you wouldn't try so hard, but it also seems as if you are being given and altimatum. I'm sure that all vegans are not just about PETA and such. Sorry you didn't get the warm welcome you should have but your question, while you didn't mean for it to sound offending to meat eaters, it does. You have a valid questions though and we are all here to help.

Maybe finding used leather or scraps as mentioned would be easiest to obtain. I don't believe roadkill is your best bet as it will probably be spoiled by the time you get it, especially in Arizona. Also even though UKRay apologized he may have a valid point in silversmithing. It does seem to be a similar craft.

I know everyone here would love to see your work and progress and remember we like pics. Please don't shy away.

Good luck, James

[Trauma]

Kevinjohnson,

You might do well to 'lurk' here a while longer and learn what this board is really about.

As I see you don't really get it at all, we have all walks of life here, from seasoned bikers wanting to make their own gear, to hobbyists, to professionals wanting to see what everyone else is doing, while sharing a little of what they've learned along their own path.

The one thing I haven't seen so far however, is the sort of sickening response you provided to what I perceive to be an honest approach to a difficult situation.

Sure, he's got a hell of a balancing act on his hands, but personally i applaud him for trying to strike a balance.

And then I see the crap you offer as a response.

You disgust me.

Grow up.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Trauma

[Trauma]

I felt the need to separate my response to Kevinjohnson from my response to Noah.

As i said in my previous post, you have a hell of a juggling act on your hands.

I wouldn't recommend roadkill as a leather source. Even if you manage to find one without tiremarks straight through, the bacteria that starts at the moment of death will be a problem.

If your g.f is ok with shoes, maybe try broaching the subject of reducing waste, assure her that every scrap of leather will be put to good use, and that as little as possible will go to waste.

My fiance had issues with me taking up leatherwork, until we discussed it and I explained that the leather will be produced anyway. It's an established industry. And that if nothing else, i make use of as much of the leather as possible, throwing out as little as i can.

Please ignore the crappy responses, for the most we're a good bunch.

Good luck

Edited March 29, 2009 by Trauma

[LAPat]

The food chain is the tragedy of life. But there is no escape from it, and veganism as an attempt to keep animals from suffering is an artifical construct with no true logic. Nobody can live unless something dies, and if that something is not meat, eventually nothing can live at all. there is suffering inherent in everything we do. It is the biggest mystery of creation to me.

That exchange of energy is core to survival, and the food chain does not work without animals. However, I find it troubling the way people devalue what they must kill, or judge those who participate in killing to eat, rather than respect and honor that death -- which is a transformation into other life.

The sacrifice that a cow makes is not trivial to that cow, but to do something beautiful with that sacrifice is one way we can honor it. So long as we must kill to survive, making useful and beautiful things is an act of magic, not cruelty. Using a piece of leather with respect and consciousness is not as easy as treating it like an object whose creation is our right. But it is the right thing to do. It's just not as easy on one's desire to be "kind" as is veganism.

Use your leather with honor and respect and it is a better thing that leaving that leather for someone to use mindlessly or letting it go to waste. As for kindness, when you do something to be kind rather than to do what is right (not an easy thing to know, of course) you are so in danger of becoming morally corrupt. Immoral kindness is practically a sure thing particularly if it leads a person to feel they are better, or more valuable, or have the right to dictate to others, because they are not causing suffering. Of course they are. We all do. See above -- the food chain is the tragedy of life. And here's the irony -- what a beautiful life it is.

Respectfully,

Pat

[Go2Tex]

I'm afraid there will be no compromise here. Poor Noah is going to have to choose between his hobby and his girl. Ah heck, it wouldn't be the first time that happened in history! Women are always making us men folk change our habbits and hobbies. And we DO IT damn fast too if we want to continue to enjoy our most favorite hobby..... the one we can't live without.

So, Noah ol' buddy.... suck it up, Dude. Take up golf or something, 'cause you ain't gonna win this one. At least not for a while. If it's that good, and apparently to you it is damn fine stuff, then you hang in there and wait until the little lady moves on to some other cause du jour and then you can take up the leather hobby again.

Good luck to you and I hope this post didn't OFFEND anyone.

[azrider]

I will not even mention the Veganism, but when I read this thread I started thinking about what makes leather work for what we want to make out of it. As someone who enjoys making things with my hands, I understand wanting to create and design things. As some one who is married, I understand the need to make your significant other happy too.

For making sheaths and belts, you have already found some substitutes, but they won't take tooling. What lets the leather hold a tooled impression is the celluloid structure. When the tool crushes the fibers, the impression stays. The only other substance I could think of that might be a substitute is also natural. I have worked with very green wood before, and remember that you can make impressions and such on it with out it breaking. Once it dries these impressions are a set part of the wood. (It has to be very green, like within hours of being attached to a tree.) Soft wood would probably be the best. I lived in AZ for 30 years, and played around with Palo Verde wood some. It is very soft, and contains a lot of moisture when it comes off the tree. If you were able to split it and either plane or sand the surface, without letting it dry out, you might be able to tool some designs in the surface. Good luck in finding a way to continue using the skills and tools from leatherworking in another medium.

[rawhide1]

I've thought on this a little bit and maybe Kevin Johnson comments and others should of been kept to ourselves inculding mine. Because Noah wasn't asking for advice on his relationship he was asking for our help. But I also find it pretty sad and distasteful that certian people find it okay to jump all over Kevin. I think Noah gets the point that not all of ya agree with Kevins comments. But Kevin is entitled to his say just like the rest of ya. So how is it any different for you folks to bash Kevin. Just wondering? Mike

[AgronZoti]

There are no reservations here for raising 'roo! They don't need to do that, as they are everywhere. They are even in some small towns. There are millions across the country. We live about 20 mile from the capital city and we get wallaby in the paddocks and sometimes in the yard. Last year 2 of us shot 1500 of them about 1 mile from my house and hardly made a dent in their numbers. The meat is used for pet food but we do eat a few of them ourselves.

It is good leather.

Tony.

Well i have read that there are parks were they have to thin out the heard, and the animals are taken down in a humain manor, and as far as i rember they had som sort of gov. certificat.. alot of ppl thies days have a problem with roo hides, becouse thier huge numbers are a problem, folks get rather creativ killing them... i think thats why roo leather is baned in some places... witch is rather stupit... becouse the ppl living with the problem roo's are still gona get rid of them... I say its better to buy from them and give them and ecenomic incentiv to do it as humanly as posible.

(I didnt have time to run this thrue a spell checker sorry)

Ill try and find the link to that park...

[TwinOaks]

Well, let's throw religion into the mix and see where it ends up (I'll get the fire extinguisher readyfor all the flame responses).

Romans 14:1-3

There. Now according to that (applicable to those of the various Christian faiths), we can't criticize Noah's girlfriend's beliefs and she can't criticize ours.

Let's move on with this thread, now that the insults, wry humor, and other comments and appologies have been made.

Back on topic: Any alternative leather sources that Noah could use? There's been some good responses so far, let's keep them coming.

Edited March 29, 2009 by TwinOaks

[JayO]

Why don't you make her a purse or a pair of shoes out of carrot and potatoe skins.

That may be acceptable.

Soon, you may not be allowed to eat meat either. Think about it. When you met her

were you looking for a girlfriend or a menu? You both have hard choices to make and it should

not only be you who has to give in.

Good luck.

John.