Pricing custom saddles

[Bob]

It would seem that starting a new topic about saddle pricing would be good. Everyone seems to have their own ideas for what to charge for a new saddle. For example…

• Their level of skill and experience
• The amount of demand made for their service
  
• The various costs involved for leather, hardware, and trees etc.
  
• The amount of time and effort involved
  

It would be interesting to see what you are charging for a base price on a new saddle in your region. Feel free to make other comments that would help others keep in step with current prices. The idea is to help other saddle makers price their work, stay competitive, and make an honest living.

[AndyKnight]

I will be in the upper range compared to some ,with a base price of $4000.oo and looking at a 400.00 increase. I build my own trees. still too cheap!!

Sell saddles all across Canada and the USA. Always busy.

Edited March 23, 2008 by AndyKnight

[kseidel]

My Base price is $6500. I don't add extra for different riggings or padded seats or other construction changes. A full flower stamp job is andextra $7500. Artwork or "collector" saddles add $2000 with a minimum of $10,000 for tooling. Current backlog is five years, and I am turning away orders.

Keith

[steve mason]

I am in Canada so my base will convert to be higher than a lot of makers in the states, with the American $ getting weaker we are about at par for exchange rate, just a few years ago the exchange was around 50 cents so us canadians were quite a bit cheaper once the conversion was done, now we are more expensive than most Americans ever though we did not change our prices.

For makers who I would consider of quality, I am in the same base range as most of them up here, $4000. I do not make my own trees, but I use only true custom made trees, by either Rod Nikkle and some by Glen Christman. I have a definite bias towards using true custom trees, I see to many makers using cheap factory trees is there saddles then advertising that they are a custom maker, it just doesn't seem to make sense for me to do this. to get a true custom tree will only cost a couple hundred bucks at the most to get a tree that will make your saddle making life much better, not only do these trees fit horses better but they are much nicer to build on. OK, I'll get off my soap box now.

I try use the best of materials in my saddles, hearman oak, harwood hardware, shearling (never the fake crap) etc. In my base price the saddle is ready to ride with latigos, cinches and base stirrups, I also include the flat plate riggin.

When I do some Internet surfing I am sometime amazed by some makers who look to building nice stuff but are way to low in their base price. Even at $4000 Canadian, I am not making a killing, I just don't know who some of these guys can charge only $2000 with out sacrificing something in their saddles or their own pocket book. From What I have seen and have been told by some American makers, the average base of good makers is about $3200-$3500 US. Keith, hair on you for getting $6500, you might be one of the only guys getting paid what you should if you compare our rates to other tradesmen, think about what your mechanic or plumber charges you per hour, I'll bet most of us are not getting paid what those tradesmen are.

Bob: what is your base at now days?

Edited March 23, 2008 by steve mason

[Bob]

Mine is 3500, plus extras....

[Randy Cornelius]

With your base prices guys, Is that for a plain saddle with no tooling or border stamp? does that include rear girths, breast collors and matching covered stirrups? Just checking what is included in a "Base Price" I know I have been real cheep but just getting started. Have not sold many that did not go to wife or friends yet.

Randy

[AndyKnight]

include rear cinch but not front, tin bound stirrups. . 150.00 for flat plate or inskirt rigging. All stamping /carving is extra.

[Bob]

Randy, the base price means something different where ever you go. In my shop, 3500 (Subject to increase) has been my base price for some time.

It included...

double rigging & back cinch

leather covered stirrups

real sheepskin's

Custom trees from Timberline saddle tree company (Steve Mason ) Randy's a good guy and makes decent stuff, I've been using his stuff for years and have no problems, sure there's better. But you'll wait and wait and pay dearly too. I suppose I'm what you'd call a loyal customer...

doesn't include

padded seat

silver concho's

stamping or tooling of any kind

[kseidel]

Randy, My base price is for a saddle complete and ready to ride. No tooling, No silver. Your choice of rigging, padded or hard seat, rawhide bindings (if you have to have it and I can't talk you aout of it), strings, wrapped and twisted stirrup fenders, covered laminated stirrups or monels, latigos and cinch of your choice, rear cinch and billets also your choice, Handbuilt tree, Premium materials, 1" extra dense bark tanned woolskin, horn wraps, rope straps, pretty much any thing you want.

In addition, I warrant my trees and riggings for the life of the saddle. Stirrup leathers for 10 years.

My list of extra charges is short. Tooing, lining (two ply skirting, smooth leather on both sides), recessed seat into swell, dyed background, and braided edges.

I got tired of enticing orders with a low base price, adding all the extras that most customers wanted, only to be too expensive and trimming the order to what they could afford. This way I qualify my customer, and they won't have any surprises.

I feel that if you are a trained, qualified and experienced saddlemaker, that you should be able to make a comperable wage to to other skilled tradesmen. Most better factory made assembly line saddles retail $2500 - $3000 starting price. Better made handbuilt saddles should cost significantly more. I hear all the time that cowboys can't and won't pay more. To that I say not as long as someone will make it for less. When we agree to sell for less money, we contribute to keeping this industry underpaid. We will not see young people coming into this trade and working hard to develop the finer skills if they cannot earn a decent wage. Help starving saddlemakers by raising "your" prices. (guess I got on the soap box there too)

Keith

[Bob]

Keith, thats very well said. Trouble is many people that make saddles, claim the "Custom builder" title and build a saddle in 2 days, sell for like you said, 2500-3000. They market within the industry "Custom saddles" and to a degree they are custom built, because they're not off the shelf.

In our part of the country thats a problem, customer come in my shop, spend an hour looking at what I have to offer and drive down the road and buy somewhere else because it's cheaper.

Bottom line is, there seems to be more customers willing to buy a cheaper saddle, "Custom made" than a custom saddle that costs 1500-2000 more. Some can see the difference, many cannot see it.

Tell me what you think. Is there more customers willing to spend 4000 than 6500?. I think the answer to that question may not be that easy to answer. It would depend largely on how big your world is... With todays marketing skills the world is delivered to your doorstep.

Nice website by the way. Very well done. How much traffic and sales do you get from the website alone? I mean overseas sales?

As soon as I learn more about next years "Kamloops Cowboy Festival" I'll post the information here to give everyone tons of time to plan on coming to Kamloops. The heart of cowboy country.

[kseidel]

Bob, I can only tell you my experience, and I have a retail store in a prime location, so what works for me is somewhat relative to my situation as a retailer. It is easier to get wealthy clients when your business is more visible. And I think one gets more credibility as a professional with an established storefront. Not many of the wealthy will find you at your home or at the ranch.

The website adds to the package, but is only another tool in the marketing program. It gets a lot of attention, but not as many sales as I would like. We are in the process of renovating and updating it and hopefully by the first of June will have a new look and generate more sales. Thanks for the complements on the site. Check back once in a while as it is changing daily with new pix and text and eventually a new overall look.

We also publish a catalog that we can send on request. The catalog seems to be the clincher in mail order sales. But the most of our sales are made in person in the store.

My prices increased because of demand greater than the ability to produce in a timely manner. Raising the prices was supposed to slow down the orders. The opposite happened. It seems that the higher we raise the prices, the more people want the goods. The higher prices also made it possible to spend more time making the products which improved the quality even further, and drove the demand higher and subsequently the prices higher yet.

Tell me what you think. Is there more customers willing to spend 4000 than 6500?.

I am sure there are more willing to spend less, but how many can you handle? As a custom saddlemaker, I think we should be priced high enough to be above competing for the same customers that buy the discount saddles. Those of us who have highly developed skills should make a much better saddle and charge accordingly for it. It does take a lot more time to make a lot better saddle. Ford, Dodge, and GM, do not discount their trucks and we all find a way to buy what we want and need. Those horsemen who require the better quality that our premium saddles provide will pay what they cost. The factory saddle will not withstand the workload, any more than a light duty truck.

You are right that many cannot see the difference in the quality of the saddles at different prices. But they will always buy the better one if it isn't much more. If it is a lot more, they will buy the cheaper saddle, and when it fails, have to buy the more expensive one. As long as there are good saddles available for less money, they will not have to spend more, thus perpetuating the cycle of discounting prices to get customers. And all of us working hard for minimal wages.

I'm sure that there will always be "discount" saddlemakers. I would like to see the gap in pricing be greater. I think it is better to build a better saddle than your competitor, not to under price him. You can't buy the good stuff at Wal-Mart or Big R.

I hope this is a challenge to everyone and with inflation rising, it is a great opportunity to raise prices significantly.

I wish you all a better lifestyle!

Keith

[leatheroo]

hi keith, i am not a horsey person, but i was 'blown away' by your website and the absolutely beautiful work that you do...my question is how many hours does it take to make a complete saddle with no tooling and how many hours for one with 100% tooling. Do you do all the work yourself, if not how many different people would work on one saddle? As a kitchen table leatherworker i am really fascinated in projects that take longer than 'between meals" LOL

[kseidel]

Leatheroo, I usually spend 40 - 50 hours on a plain saddle, however I hardly ever make a plain one. Most are full tooled and take anywhere from 200 -300 working hours. Some of the collector saddles can take a great deal longer. Some saddles I do all of the work on myself, and others I will have help. I have one saddlemaker working for me now but have had as many as six at once in the past. If a saddle is a "group" project, one man will build the saddle and another will do the tooling. The man with me now is very talented and he and I can both work on a saddle seamlessly. We try not to do the assembly line thing, but sometimes deadlines require we all work together. My oldest daughter is eighteen and is now working in the shop. She is becoming one of my most valued workers.

Sometimes I dread starting a new saddle knowing how long it will take to complete.

[barra]

I have been reading the pricing custom saddles post and thought I would throw a few thoughts out there for either further discussion, food for thought or chucking in the scrap bin.

First of all, a brief resume detailing my involvement in the saddlery and harness trade. Upon leaving school I worked for 4 years under an old British saddler and harness maker (residing in Australia). Above his bench he had his framed certificate from the Worshipful Company of Master Saddlers. He was justified in calling himself a Master saddler. Very long story short I flew the nest after 4 years but without any “formal” Trade qualification unlike someone who did say an electrician’s apprenticeship and attended formal trade school. I thought it doesn’t matter, it is just a bit of paper and all I will have to do is show people what I can do. Now as the old master had no sewing machines, every stitch was by hand. Looking back now I am grateful that is the way I was taught. However to be competitive it was imperative I learn to use an industrial sewing machine. 23 Mar 1988 saw me enter the Airforce (yep that’s 20 years yesterday) In the field of Safety and Survival Equipment. One component of this trade uses industrial sewing machines to trim the interior of Aircraft, manufacture harnesses, repair fabric components like Parachutes and recover panels. Basically a motor trimmer but for Aircraft. I eventually ended up spending 4 years at a nationally recognised Aerospace training establishment teaching the Trade. Of course in order to teach I had to jump thru loads of Government accredited training hoops to gain formal teaching and assessing qualifications.

Back to the posts in the forum. I do not see the base price of Keith’s saddles as overly excessive. I don’t think anyone would argue that his saddles are exquisite. He has stated that his base price is $6500. Now let’s play hypothetical. We must add up the cost of his premium grade raw materials (add mark-up as he is in business and had to buy them). Add up the costs of his overheads to conduct business. He then said it takes him 40-50 hrs to make. Let’s use 40 hrs (common sort of working week). No self employed plumber, electrician, mechanic or carpenter is going to get out of bed in the morning for less than $60 (and that is being ridiculously conservative). Let’s use 60 X 40 = $2400.00 just for labour and that is for a plain saddle. Add the material/overhead costs. Add to this if a man has worked hard to build up a professional reputation he should be entitled to capitalise on his name being on a saddle.

People will gladly pay huge sums of money for a horse with the right pedigree but it is going to die and unless it has breeding/earning potential it is money that is going to turn into dust no matter how well you look after it. They will go out and buy the mega gas guzzler to pull the gooseneck Bill Gates would be proud to call home, but ahhh the saddle, how dare the saddler expect decent recompence.

I am now going to randomly pluck some comments out of the forum thus far.

From Steve Mason

compare our rates to other tradesmen, think about what your mechanic or plumber charges you per hour, I'll bet most of us are not getting paid what those tradesmen are.

From Keith

“We will not see young people coming into this trade and working hard to develop the finer skills if they cannot earn a decent wage”.

I feel that if you are a trained, qualified and experienced saddle maker, that you should be able to make a comparable wage to to other skilled tradesmen.

These comments are quite valid but why are they so true?

In Australia too many people throw out the I’m a qualified saddler/master saddler. I can see where people can get the best training on offer and eventually become very experienced but where does a kid contemplating entering the saddlery trade gain a formal qualification in the same sense as the mechanic, electrician, plumber or the formal bit of paper to frame on the wall like the kid with the degree.

During the last 30 years or so society has sort of implied that unless you have a university degree you are almost less than a successful human being. Because of that trend there is now a Massive skills shortage in the traditional trades. The kid who did break from the norm and enter a trade is now what is called in Australia

“A cashed up Bogan” See attached story.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/swagell090606.html

In other words they can charge what the heck they like and they now drive the Mercedes, BMW and Porche. Why can’t the saddler expect to make a decent living too.

I also feel the trade needs to move towards formalising training just like the other trades. I just feel the kid misses out on something if they don’t get to hang up the shingle like their mates even if the training is impeccable or they become very experienced. This is one aspect I feel the British have it over the rest of us.

http://www.saddlerytraining.com/

http://www.capel.ac.uk/Courses/Saddlery/Co...loma_020776.htm

Barra

[mulefool]

With folks spending 40,000 on a new truck, 4000 for a new saddle seems like peanuts. There's a pretty famous old photo out there of a cowboy with his new saddle on a pretty sad looking pony that is captioned something like a "forty dollar saddle on a ten dollar horse."

[Doug Mclean]

Thanks to you Bob for starting another topic of such importance. This is as important to a young saddle maker as any aspect of the business. I realize jumping in on this conversation is like coaching from the bleachers, but I lived this life for 10 years and made most of these mistakes in person.

Keith you touched on it when you said you have a store front location. Location Location Location. The other thing is market analysis. If you want to sell $6500.00 saddles you have to get them in front of people with $6500.00 in their pocket. We have so many tools now that were not well known to us in the 80's if they were available at all. The market shows were available I'm not sure about these trade gatherings??? The trade shows at major events, where a person can get their work out in the public eye. The internet has become a major tool. The great thing with the internet, It is available to everyone. One comment on the web sites. You need to get someone involved who understands how to organize your site in such a way that it will be picked up by the search engines.

Getting back to the point. This is a very broad topic that deserves a lot of attention. Marketing your product and organizing your business goals are as important as any other aspect of the trade. Placing your prices high will not in itself make you a success, nor will being the cheapest.

I'm a part time saddle maker and probably more of the problem than the cure. I have always said to young people that ask about getting started in the saddle business. Go work for someone and learn the trade.

Doug McLean

[raftert]

Kieth,

My store will be open now a year. To make sure I could pay the bills I do all kind of work like Bible covers, belts, table coverings and lots of saddle repair. I have been hand sewing everything. My buisness has been growing and I am behind in orders and have just bought a sewing machine. The saddles I have built (6) have been very good quality, plain, with things on it that working Cowboys need. I was a ranch manager for 15 years so I had installed diffrent things on my saddle that alot of the Hands in my area like.

In that short paragraph you have found mistakes that I have made and maybe you could point out some diffrent trails I could go.

I cannot keep the saddles I make in the store because the sell while I am making them, but I have alot of cheap saddles also plus a pretty full line of other tack.

The question I am asking should I slow down on small leather work and consentrate on custom saddles or find that balance, either way I want my buisness to grow.

Tim

[kseidel]

Tim,

Tough question to answer. You have to do what makes enough money to survive first. As finances allow, schedule time to make what you want. It is hard to be true to an ideal when you have to make a living. Your customers can and will dictate the direction that your business will take, and to some degree you have to do what sells. I think my best advice would be to remember to make a profit. Sometimes little stuff can be more profitable than saddles. For me, belts became much more profitable than anything else. And the added buckle sales made them too good to quit. There became a point where I had to decide if I wiuld be a belt maker and give up on saddles. I had doubled the belt prices to slow down the orders and make more time for saddles, but the orders increased! I was able to hire some help to make the belts so that I could get back to the saddle orders, but the profit was not there. So I had to raise the prices of the saddles to be in line with the belts for profit. Since the prices were higher, I felt that I should make them better, and so spent a bit more time on them (making them better, but reducing profit again). Then the orders increased for saddles. Eventually there were too many orders to fill for the hours available. That led to hiring more help. As the quality increased, the availability of qualified help decreased. Leaving me to work double shifts to keep up with the orders and still run the ever increasing retail store. At some point you don't have a life outside of your store and when you have a day off you are too tired to enjoy it. But you can afford a better lifestyle.

Your retail store can subsidize your shop and allow you to work on developing new skills without having to charge for the actual time spent. You will have to weigh the profit against your personal development and find a balance that you can afford. You can make a lot of money on repairs and can usually hire someone to do them for you. I recomend it. They will certainly make their pay and soon make you profit. But they free you to do things that they cannot, allowing you time to make "bigger" things. Try to make things that you want to have in your store. People buy what they see. If they only see little stuff, you will be overrun with orders on little stuff. If you stock other items that you want to make, you will get orders for them. Listen to what your customers want, but don't let them control your store.

I hope this helps to answer your question, and I wish you great success!

Keith

[Bob]

Keith, your exactly right. Thats the struggle many of us deal with balancing this with that. Getting pulled in every direction. There could be a book written on this subject. "The challanges of being self employment in a saddle shop"

What a great idea and title. Someone should take up this. In case you don't have enought to do. LOLOL

[TwinOaks]

Bob, you're on to a pretty good idea about the book. I have a suggestion to make about it. Instead of one person writing it, which would give only one perspective, let's see if Johanna or one of the moderating team can archive these posts. The posts from individual members could then be grouped, and categorized by specific subject (pricing, design, customer service, etc.) and the entire thread ocnverted to downloadable .PDF. The result would be a Leatherworker.net E-book. And since I'm sure the Mods don't have enough to do, this could be done in just a few days..

Seriously, though, I'll offer my assistance if anyone wants to do it. I'm by no means a professional Editor, but if I can help, I will.

Mike

[okiwen]

I find great value in this thread. I am at the beginning of this road. I am just learning and want to be the best possible, yet I don't want to "take it in the shorts" either. I believe in paying my due but when there are those that are faster full time and more qualified making less than I would think they could eat for, I feel funny telling those that want a saddle from me that my time is worth more than the "saddle master". I am in the process of purchasing the items that will make a premium saddle (and paying double the price from my wife), and it looks like I will never be able to pay for it. Thank goodness I have a "real job".

That brings me to friends. They all want what I am turning out but know I have just begun to learn and want the cut rate. Leaving me to decide, do I earn next to nothing and learn giving opportunity for word of mouth to help in the long run or raise the price loose the "customer" and find a store to put what I am making in on consignment and take a fraction of what they are making on it?

I came up with a great idea to solve a problem that I've had for the whole of my career in law enforcement and then look at the great holster makers like Tucker and Bianchi and the numerous others I have recently seen here, and see that I cannot charge enough to compete with them and still pay the bills.

Boy, that turned into a rant. Thanks for listening. I have to go to work now.

Kevin

I hope that new sewing machine (if I ever receive it) sews really, really well.

[raftert]

The one thing I am learning is that the Craftsman on this website give the best advice and put out products out that are truly amazing. My family has been in the saddle and tack buisness for over a hundred years, and I have learned as much from them about the buisness and craftmanship as I did watching my Father in his shop. It is like going back to collage without the crap. It inspires me to build much better products and charge what I should for my skills. Many thanks to all of you and I hope you can put up with my advice( wich is worth as much as you paid for it).

Tim

[raftert]

Kieth,

Thank you for your reply. I think I am reaching that point in my buisness where I have that hump, buy equipment to make your products faster but with the same quality, but you are nervous about the money that you are spending. My customer base is expanding just by word of mouth. Every day more people are coming into my store that I have never seen before ( the regulars come in every day because I make good coffee). I have seen your work and it is a honor to visit with to you.

Tim

[Windrider30]

First I want to say that I have never made a saddle, the only thing I know about saddles is that when doing a pony express mount, wear a cup that damn western saddle horn hurts like hell when you sit on it!...Now that being said I have seen some things that have been mentioned by Keith and a few others that is great advice. And yes I know this is an older post but thought I would add to it as its a great posting. What I wanted to mention is the marketing side of things. Which I do hold a Master's degree in so hope this helps and gives a few of you some ideas out there. First something that was touched on a couple of times, know your customers. Are you going after the "true cowboy" or are you going after those that jump horses or show horses, or are they the Urban cowboys and girls? By knowing what kind of customer you want to attract will help you make the saddle or products (belts and what not) that they will truly want. Now people are talking about base price, which by the way I have learned a lot already that can be applied to other aspects of the leather trade thank you very much! It's better to set a higher price than a lower one. Sure you will miss a few customers but what you have to remember is that you can make a great product, as a mater of fact you could make a saddle that the Gods would knock your door down to get, but if you sell it at a cheap price then you and your products, no matter the fine quality, will be labelled as a cheap product in peoples' minds even though its not a "cheap" product that is how it will be perceived as.

I am not suggesting setting your prices so high that only a millionaire could afford it, but I am also suggesting not to set your prices so low that the Walmart crowd can afford to hassle you day and night. The first thing that you should truly ask yourself is who do you want your product to be seen with...and be realistic about this, we would all love to see some famous person wearing or using our products but when you are first starting out that is more than likely not going to happen. If you are going for lets say the cowboys and girls that do the rodeos then price your saddles with in their budget range. Word of mouth is a great tool to use when marketing your products but you need to always keep in mind who your customers are. I mean you will not see a Rolex on some hillbilly's wrist that is because Rolex does not advertise at the five and dime stores, which means advertise in places that the customer that you are aiming for will see your products. Always remember it's a little easier to lower your prices if its not selling then it is to raise your prices and running your customers off.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Great Thread, with even greater answers from some of the best. I agree with most of the comments made here and "feel " them all. I make custom saddles, anywhere from base to well dressed saddles, usually 2 / 3 a year, as I am only by myself and like it that way. I do not have to make a living at it I am retired from the auto industry and this is my sanity check. With that said, I do not make it if I cannot make it right , however; I live in Michigan, and here I am hard pressed to get much more than $2800 for a base saddle since most of the horseman up here are weekend riders with limited discressionary income and will buy an off the shelf saddle at the drop of a hat, rather than one that is made to the standards that we make our saddles to. My saddles are first rate for fit and function with top quality materials, my tooling is good, but; not quite to the level of Keith, or Bobby, or Steve Masons (I am going to get there some day). Since I cannot move to an area where people know the difference in off the shelf and really hand made quality, I am relegated to work in the market that I am in. Else where I would not think twice about my base being $4000. But, it what it is. Thanks to all who have made this thread so interesting.

Bob