Kingmax Vs Artisan Vs Cobra...

[Slickbald]

At a visit to our local industrial sewing supply house for thread, I inquire about Artisan machines. I'm told with no lack of certainty that the Kingmax brand is the actual maker, and Artisan (and I suspect Cobra) are marketers. The same way most tools are made in the same building, by the same company, and marketed through (ordered and sold by) Skill/Dewalt, Grizzly, Milwalkee, etc. Anyone that has worked in high tech knows about contract manufacturing and re-branding.

The Toro-4000 and Cobra Class 4, are the same machine as the Kingmax GA441 (manufactures brand). The only real difference is the table style and a couple of bells and whistles. I'm told they are less expensive in the Kingmax brand and will confirm when the quote comes in tomorrow.

The question: Does any one have experience with the Kingmax brand? At this point it comes down to customer service and price; love some opinions of any brands of this level stitcher. Thanks!

Chris

Edited June 15, 2010 by Slickbald

[Art]

Someone is feeding you a load of crud. The heads for the Artisan 4000 and Cobra Class 4 are made by Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, Hebei, China. Zhiqiang does put their own label on their product for the Asian trade, it is the Zhigong grand extra heavy duty lock stitch sewing machine series, Zhigong being the blue and white label that is plastered on the front of the head. The heads are custom manufactured for customers like Artisan and Cobra and are a little different. I don't know where the Kingmax comes from, but I would find out before I bought one.

Both Cobra and Artisan also do about 4 to 8 hours additional work modifying these machines for leatherwork. They also replace or modify several parts in addition to checking the machine to make sure it is right. Quite often it is not and has to be repaired or adjusted.

Art

At a visit to our local industrial sewing supply house for thread, I inquire about Artisan machines. I'm told with no lack of certainty that the Kingmax brand is the actual maker, and Artisan (and I suspect Cobra) are marketers. The same way most tools are made in the same building, by the same company, and marketed through (ordered and sold by) Skill/Dewalt, Grizzly, Milwalkee, etc. Anyone that has worked in high tech knows about contract manufacturing and re-branding.

The Toro-4000 and Cobra Class 4, are the same machine as the Kingmax GA441 (manufactures brand). The only real difference is the table style and a couple of bells and whistles. I'm told they are less expensive in the Kingmax brand and will confirm when the quote comes in tomorrow.

The question: Does any one have experience with the Kingmax brand? At this point it comes down to customer service and price; love some opinions of any brands of this level stitcher. Thanks!

Chris

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I don't know where the Kingmax comes from, but I would find out before I bought one.

Both Cobra and Artisan also do about 4 to 8 hours additional work modifying these machines for leatherwork. They also replace or modify several parts in addition to checking the machine to make sure it is right. Quite often it is not and has to be repaired or adjusted.

Art

Kingmax Industrial Sewing Machines come from Deko Corporation/Dongsheng Sewing Machines Company, Ltd., web site Kingmax

Oh, and it's more like It's rare that a machine is setup or adjusted properly. The excitement of a perceived good price will quickly disappear soon after you find out what shows up after the machine arrives without proper setup. Not to mention the fact that there is also a value to having the confidence and support of a domestic dealer.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing

[Slickbald]

Thank you both! The info came from the Kingmax dealer in Denver, and I came here for just this reason! (I don't trust salesmen!) They do look identical on the their web sites.

My main anxiety with this type of machine is my belief that I'll spend as much time working on it as using it, or be down while it's "in the shop" as it were. I built production equipment for 15 years and am darn tired of dinking with them frankly. I'm looking for dependability, dependability, and dependability; quality stitching assumed equal between the brands.

Cobra Steve is rumored to be calling me to discuss, but I would still like opinions on any either of the two brands here if anyone is willing...

This is an end of year purchase, I have time to pick and choose! Thanks again!

[Wizcrafts]

Thank you both! The info came from the Kingmax dealer in Denver, and I came here for just this reason! (I don't trust salesmen!) They do look identical on the their web sites.

My main anxiety with this type of machine is my belief that I'll spend as much time working on it as using it, or be down while it's "in the shop" as it were. I built production equipment for 15 years and am darn tired of dinking with them frankly. I'm looking for dependability, dependability, and dependability; quality stitching assumed equal between the brands.

Cobra Steve is rumored to be calling me to discuss, but I would still like opinions on any either of the two brands here if anyone is willing...

This is an end of year purchase, I have time to pick and choose! Thanks again!

I'm glad you are open to our opinions, which are very strong on this forum. Most of the pros here have worked their way up through many sewing machines to get to where we are today. While we cannot decide what you should do with your own money we can offer learned advice.

My advice is to go with a Cobra, Cowboy, or Artisan long arm 441 clone. I personally think that the best choice would be between the first two, as I know the dealers personally and have spoken to both about their machines. You will definitely get more than your money's worth from our member dealers. They are available personally to answer any questions you have and to fix any mechanical problems that may arise. The Cobra and Cowboy line of machines are custom built to leather-sewing specifications for the US dealers who promote them. Additions are made when they are unpacked, then they are adjusted, mated to a motor/table and sewn off.

There is a big difference between a stock 441 type machine and a specially setup leather stitcher. Our dealers install special leather and harness stitching pressor feet, guides and throat plates, plus they make proper adjustments to the clearances inside the machine. A leather sewing machine has to endure a tremendous amount of pounding, as huge needles and thread penetrate 3/4" of often hard leather.

I hope this helps.

[Deb59]

I'm glad you are open to our opinions, which are very strong on this forum. Most of the pros here have worked their way up through many sewing machines to get to where we are today. While we cannot decide what you should do with your own money we can offer learned advice.

My advice is to go with a Cobra, Cowboy, or Artisan long arm 441 clone. I personally think that the best choice would be between the first two, as I know the dealers personally and have spoken to both about their machines. You will definitely get more than your money's worth from our member dealers. They are available personally to answer any questions you have and to fix any mechanical problems that may arise. The Cobra and Cowboy line of machines are custom built to leather-sewing specifications for the US dealers who promote them. Additions are made when they are unpacked, then they are adjusted, mated to a motor/table and sewn off.

There is a big difference between a stock 441 type machine and a specially setup leather stitcher. Our dealers install special leather and harness stitching pressor feet, guides and throat plates, plus they make proper adjustments to the clearances inside the machine. A leather sewing machine has to endure a tremendous amount of pounding, as huge needles and thread penetrate 3/4" of often hard leather.

I hope this helps.

I just got a Cobra Class 4 in about 2 weeks ago. It came with very little setup to do. I made a couple of calls to Steve, one of them he was at a community carnival with his family and even though I offered to call back at another time, he took time out from his family to talk to a cusomer and answer a question. The machine is set up and is sewing like it's name a..."Dream Machine". I had been kicking around what machine to purchase for several years. I had it narrowed down to either a Cowboy or an Artisan and was leaning towards the Artisan at the Fort Worth Show I attended. Steve was working for them at the time, he answered all my questions, and you could tell he knew what he was talking about with machines, not what you wanted to hear to make a sale. I started saving and when Cobra entered the picture with Steve behind it - I knew what machine I would be purchasing. Customer Service and support are a major factor to consider when making your decision. I know several people who have Artisans and love them. I don't think you could go wrong with any one of the 3 - Cobra, Cowboy, or Artisan. Talk to them all and see who you feel the most comfortable with asking questions.

[dbusarow]

I also got a Cobra 4 2 weeks ago. Hardest part of setup was carrying the head in and bolting it to the stand.

I had never use a leather sewing machine before. It worked fine right off the bat.

Of course as soon as I changed a couple of things while experimenting and managed to mess up the threading on top of it it developed problems. Still sewed, just not as well. 15 minute call to Steve sorted it out.

Worth the few extra dollars, no doubt.

Dan

[DuaneBallard]

I also got a Cobra 4 2 weeks ago. Hardest part of setup was carrying the head in and bolting it to the stand.

I had never use a leather sewing machine before. It worked fine right off the bat.

Of course as soon as I changed a couple of things while experimenting and managed to mess up the threading on top of it it developed problems. Still sewed, just not as well. 15 minute call to Steve sorted it out.

Worth the few extra dollars, no doubt.

Dan

Easily the nicest sewing machine I've ever used. Steve is a class act. His work, word, and machines are second to none.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I'm glad you are open to our opinions, which are very strong on this forum.

That's a nice way to put things

[Slickbald]

I just got the quote on the Kingmax 441... $100 MORE than the Cobra list! ROTFL!

I'm way to opinionated to take most other opinions personally. Experience is what it is, and everyone has their own.

I spoke with Steve a great deal and discovered our worlds were pretty small. He has me sold on the Cobra (mostly he and you all have me sold on STEVE!) I'll likely be getting one at the Southwest Show in October, cash flow not withstanding!

Thank you all for your opinions and recommendations!

[kevinhopkins]

Lots of good advice there!!!! One thing to remember, the warranty on any sewing machine will boil down to the person or dealer that you buy it from. Choose wisely!

Kevin

[JLSleather]

Someone is feeding you a load of crud. The heads for the Artisan 4000 and Cobra Class 4 are made by Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, Hebei, China. Zhiqiang does put their own label on their product for the Asian trade, ... Quite often it is not and has to be repaired or adjusted.

So much for buying American ...

[Wizcrafts]

So much for buying American ...

Good point! There are indeed American made leather sewing machines, still in production, or available as rebuilds. Actually, these should be referred to as "leather stitchers" not sewing machines. They are specially designed to stitch together very thick leather, with very heavy thread.

These American made stitchers include:

• Luberto Classic (similar to the old Number 9)
• Luberto Cub
• Tippmann Boss
• Union Lockstitch
• Campbell-Randall
• Pilgrim
• Landis
• Ferdinand Bull, et al (I don't know if they are built in the USA)

This is not all of them, as you can still get rebuilt Champion, Tippmann Aerostitch and American Straight Needle machines from various rebuilders.

[Art]

The 900 Bull was built on a Consew 754 as I recall.

Art

[*]Ferdinand Bull, et al (I don't know if they are built in the USA)

[bozzi]

At a visit to our local industrial sewing supply house for thread, I inquire about Artisan machines. I'm told with no lack of certainty that the Kingmax brand is the actual maker, and Artisan (and I suspect Cobra) are marketers. The same way most tools are made in the same building, by the same company, and marketed through (ordered and sold by) Skill/Dewalt, Grizzly, Milwalkee, etc. Anyone that has worked in high tech knows about contract manufacturing and re-branding.

The Toro-4000 and Cobra Class 4, are the same machine as the Kingmax GA441 (manufactures brand). The only real difference is the table style and a couple of bells and whistles. I'm told they are less expensive in the Kingmax brand and will confirm when the quote comes in tomorrow.

The question: Does any one have experience with the Kingmax brand? At this point it comes down to customer service and price; love some opinions of any brands of this level stitcher. Thanks!

Chris

I bought a cowboy long arm some months ago it sews great, set up was minimal, ryan was very helpful and did not get annoyed when asked stupid questions. The quality of workmanship of the machined parts is exceptional. I have had to call him on various occasions to ask more stupid questions and he still did not get annoyed, just spoke to me with respect never talked down to me, not even when I called him for a friend who was having trouble with a machine ryan never sold him, he just gave me the info. needed, from a business man working with the public, all I can say is this mans product and professionalism CAN NOT BE BEAT, give him a call before you decide.

[shannonH]

I bought a Kingmax GA441. The machine is Great! Smooth and quiet. My father bought a Ferdco machine probably about 10 years+ ago before there was artisans, cowboys etc. Guess what? It was made by Kingmax! Yes Kingmax is the brand name but they have been exporting them for a decade or more. I talk to the people at Ferdco before they closed for health reasons. But there website is still working and they cross reference the Ferdco name with the Kingmax models! If you don't know there website its www.ferdco.com. So the information i see on this blog is either people who don't know or competitors trying to bad mouth a good company. You can probably save a buck here or there but Kingmax has a track record and in China there are many factories which make similar or in many cases probably from the same factories. I bought my machine from Ralph's in Denver. They carry a full line of equipment. They have been in business longer then everyone else i believe 38-40 years. They were one of the offices for the Singer co. By the way if you have a old singer machine and need parts call them they still have alot of oboslete parts plus they have a machine shop to make custom parts. I'm sure if you talk to Jack he would of work with you on price! The website for kingmax is www.kingmax.us.com i have been very satisfied with there products as well as my father when the name was Ferdco. Just my two cents worth.

[TwinOaks]

Does Kingmax set the machine up specifically for leather, or do they just sell it as an industrial machine head?

I ask because there is a lot more to a "leather sewing machine" than just the industrial head.

[shannonH]

I don't know how Kingmax ships in there machines. I Know that Ralph's and Ferdco set the machines for the customers needs. I know Ferdco had a outside machine shop but Ralph's has a inside machine shop. Unlike the other shops i check on which just import and sell them, Ralphs customizes the machine for the customers needs. I would call them for more information 1-800-525-0330.

[ace33]

I usually just read this forum but there is so much misinformation on this topic I just couldn't sit quiet. I have the Kingmax 441 and it is a great machine. Bought from Ralphs industrial in Denver and it was setup and ready to sew before I even took delivary. It is the same machine as the juki and the cowboy.....and IS built in the same factory in China as most machines now days. Fully setup with all the bells and whistles and accesories I wanted for right around 25 hundred. It sews effortlessly and has a very accurate stitch. I've never had a problem with the reverse stitches not matching the holes from the forward sewing. I like the way they set up the Kingmax in Denver a little better bvecause of the heavier duty table they used which is far more stable than the cowboy I was sewing with. Not saying anything wrong about the cowboy...it's a great machine but it is not a better machine...just a different one is all and they both do a great job.

Ace

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Puritan?

Good point! There are indeed American made leather sewing machines, still in production, or available as rebuilds. Actually, these should be referred to as "leather stitchers" not sewing machines. They are specially designed to stitch together very thick leather, with very heavy thread.

These American made stitchers include:

• Luberto Classic (similar to the old Number 9)
  
• Luberto Cub
  
• Tippmann Boss
  
• Union Lockstitch
  
• Campbell-Randall
  
• Pilgrim
  
• Landis
  
• Ferdinand Bull, et al (I don't know if they are built in the USA)
  

This is not all of them, as you can still get rebuilt Champion, Tippmann Aerostitch and American Straight Needle machines from various rebuilders.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

To really complicate the issue I would point out that few of these companies make the majority (or even any) of their parts. With many machines there are only one or possibly two companies that make the castings and another couple that machine them. Various stamped, pressed and machined components will be made by many others.

In the end it comes down to who specified the parts that went into your machine and, most importantly, who set it up for your requirements.

The 441 is not a high volume machine by Chinese standards so the number of people who make the parts is limited but there can still be a huge difference in how the machines are assembled and the quality of bearings and shuttles that are used.

[Wizcrafts]

You're correct Darren! I meant Puritan, when I typed Pilgrim. Puritan makes machines. Pilgrim rebuilds machines, mostly for the shoe trade.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I do find this interesting to say the least. I have seen a Kingmax come into our shop for 'repair', as in this was a new machine brought to us to make it work. It was, to say the least, a real mess when it showed up.

That said;

I do realized that Kingmax slaps their label on a wide variety of machines, and many do not come from under the same roof where they are made. In fact, the machine we had here may have nothing related to the other machines other than the brand name sticker.

So, point here is that even we can be duped into thinking their entire product line is not strong, based off of one machine, and that may not be true. Just as well, this machine was here quite some time again, maybe they improved.

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

A look on any B2B website shows a huge range of the same machines from different "manufacturers". If you believed the claims then there must be 100 factories building the 441 class alone. Obviously that is BS as there could only be 2 or 3 mostly using parts that come from the same small group of suppliers. Even the castings used by the Japanese and Taiwanese factories probably come from China.

In many ways it is like the car industry as everything is outsourced. Why make your own low volume widget when there are other manufacturers with the infrastructure to do it better and cheaper?

I do find this interesting to say the least. I have seen a Kingmax come into our shop for 'repair', as in this was a new machine brought to us to make it work. It was, to say the least, a real mess when it showed up.

That said;

I do realized that Kingmax slaps their label on a wide variety of machines, and many do not come from under the same roof where they are made. In fact, the machine we had here may have nothing related to the other machines other than the brand name sticker.

So, point here is that even we can be duped into thinking their entire product line is not strong, based off of one machine, and that may not be true. Just as well, this machine was here quite some time again, maybe they improved.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

A look on any B2B website shows a huge range of the same machines from different "manufacturers". If you believed the claims then there must be 100 factories building the 441 class alone. Obviously that is BS as there could only be 2 or 3 mostly using parts that come from the same small group of suppliers. Even the castings used by the Japanese and Taiwanese factories probably come from China.

In many ways it is like the car industry as everything is outsourced. Why make your own low volume widget when there are other manufacturers with the infrastructure to do it better and cheaper?

For sure, no doubt 100% correct. A lot of this came about when Japan had that Tsunami a few years back and people were scared that our suppliers were going to be shut down for months/years. None of this came about, but, it did come out how many different suppliers were supporting major brands in Japan; the numbers were into the 1,000s. Like said, nobody makes everything under one roof, and people who think so are kidding themselves.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing