Siegel Will Try To Ammend

[tg lucas]

WTH????, what does the man have to do, stake himself to a cross in public and let people throw flaming knives at him. The man does have a BUSINESS to attend to. Why is everyone so quick to Not give him a chance to make ammends. How about putting yourself in his shoes for just a day, he has been nothing but bashed and trashed on this site for the last three months and I think he deserves a break. He has admitted he has had problems with customer service this past year. So how about we give the man a chance and see what happens.

Bryan

You are right the man does have a business to attend to, which is exactly why he is in a public relations nightmare, he was not attending to it. All customers, big or small deserve the same attention, care and service. All customers do not start out as a "thousand dollar an order" customer nor do they all end up that way, but fail to meet their expectations and each one can end up costing you that much.

I have been following the posts of Seigel's plight of customer service failures, as well as his others and even visited his website a few times to confirm issues. There seems to be a commonality in each of his apologies, posts and on his website of flippant dismissal of poor customer service and veiled smugness and superiority when he is called to the carpet on these issues. His family's company has been in business for many years and claims their combined expertise as his own which very well may be legitimate. However, when he refers to the members of this community as "hobbyists" it alludes to a position of contempt and that some of the customers that buy from him should be grateful that he should even include them in his "empire". Whether or not if this is how he truly feels or not, that is indeed the perception that he has put forth and "perception is reality".

As to making amends, one of the first thing I tell any client "If you are wrong, make it right, right now", nothing soothes a burning fire like a lot of cool water quickly but if you wait too long there is nothing left to save. In the one case of an ongoing issue from November to February, I want you to imagine that you are a "hobbyist" with that long awaited big break order that could launch you into the realization of your dreams and career of leather working. But the company that you chose to supply you has not only shipped you the wrong product, doesn't pick up or send the right product and further more doesn't refund your money until months later prohibiting you from buying supplies from another company and delivering your customer's order to them ("hobbyists are often on a very low margin and tight budget). Possibly the customer gets tired of waiting, cancels the order and your dreams, future business and reputation takes a major hit from your viewpoint. It is going to leave a very bitter taste in your mouth for a long time.

If you are truly trying to make amends and not just trying to spin the PR back somewhat to your favor, do not place restrictions on clients you may have disappointed in resolving these matters. Fixing a problem is not convenient for anyone involved but if you are the one that failed to deliver what was promised, you should not even consider your own convenience in the matter at all, just work hard, bend over backwards and fix it now. Anything less is another glimpse of what your clients will perceive as dishonest contrition and insincere effort.

As to a mob mentality, research has shown time and time again, that only one, two at best out of ten complains when they feel they have been disappointed by a company. I feel what you are witnessing is those other eight or nine that still have that very bitter taste in their mouths and are finally spewing it back in the direction it belongs. News travels fast these days and bad news travels even faster, it also may be that part of what you are seeing as "kicking the man while he is down" is the many that felt disappointed or betrayed by this company talking to others non publicly and those people responding in defense of their confidant being too shy or timid to speak out for themselves.

Mr. Seigel has asked for this response because of his poorly chosen words and actions. I illustrate this by asking you to imagine hanging a "kick me" sign on your back and then stay in your

house, you will probably receive a few kicks depending how you have been acting lately but go outside and down the streets, you will receive many more kicks... from people who do not even know you simply because you asked for it. Give them any reason at all, you act or speak like a jerk for instance and many more will be obliged to kick you. Leatherworkers of all kinds still have a guild mentality to them and are an extended family of sorts, if it is perceived that you have mistreated or run down one, then you invite the disdain and correction of the entire family, even cousin Ernie that is normally antisocial and hard to get along with or Uncle Joe that thinks everyone in his family is an idiot, you have given the entire family a reason to turn their negative attention on you and really examine what is actually going on and they will unite against you if there is the slightest reason to do so. The reasoning is if you do it to my brother, then you will do it to me.

Finally, Mr Siegel I am responding directly to you. I know you read my posts because some of my "phrasing" has found it's way to your website whether it was conscience or not. That is a good thing because it demonstrates an ability to learn and adapt good advice when you hear it. I have some more for you to absorb if you are willing to try and repair an aspect of your marketplace concerning this board.

1. Accept your mistakes and your company's mistakes as your sole responsibility, your name is on the door the buck stops with you. Everyone makes mistakes and you will not be diminished as a person or a company leader for accepting responsibility but will actually restore your position as such. Refrain yourself from making or writing statements out of anger, frustration or fatigue. Your family's company did not survive this long on a basis of rash actions and there is no need for that behavior to continue. Remember little fires spread into big fires and many of the members of this forum are members of many more forums and you are the only one with a bucket of water.

2. Assign a customer service representative with exceptional communication skills or better yet a VP to handle any and all complaints. Do not bounce problems around from staff member to staff member in a game of "hot potato". That rep should report to you on a daily basis and any concern that she is not able to correct, should be addressed by you personally within 24 hours, no exception. Make up a form that includes all contact information including a nighttime phone number and use it for all complaints, follow up without delay on all issues. Getting a phone call at nine o'clock at night from the owner of company will go a long way to making your clients feel better about a problem they may be upset over and that they know you are working on.

3. Giving away thousands of dollars of product does not mean a thing to an individual customer whose order was handled poorly. Do not talk about it as a redeeming factor unless it was given to the individual whose order was an issue. If the customer service issue was handled properly and giving away product was part of your "fix", then that client will rave about your customer service and that is worth millions of PR dollars and you can always write it off as advertising expense as 100% deductible. Just in case you didn't know, just put a stamp or sticker on it and it becomes a sign or a business card or brochure and it's a write off.

4. Never, ever try to influence the reputation or perception of your company or products by anything other than upfront, transparent actions of honorable means. It will be perceived as deceptive and manipulative and is always going to be a blight on your company's image regardless of the shortcut it seems to be at the time.

5. Learn your clientele, big and small, if they do not fit your business model then redirect them to a supplier that can service them properly... do it gracefully. They will remember it as being aware of their needs and not concerned as much as your own. Never isolate a segment of your customers as you did by implying that "hobbyists" are less than desirable as clients, intentional or not. Many of us who make a living by our art and those that only supplement their income are very serious and passionate about what they do any attempt to minimize their endeavorers will result in their contempt and your isolation.

"You know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink...but you can drown them"...if you get my meaning. So if you choose to do these suggestions I can promise you that not only will you feel better but your company will experience a renewal and restoration not only with this board but all your clients. Your staff will see and know that you are serious about customer service and will follow your example, those that do not...well they do not deserve to be a part of the legacy that your family built. The members of this board are a very centered, good natured group and would be more than happy to accept you in their world and hearts provided you want to be there!

Edited February 15, 2011 by tg lucas

[Ferg]

You are right the man does have a business to attend to, which is exactly why he is in a public relations nightmare, he was not attending to it. All customers, big or small deserve the same attention, care and service. All customers do not start out as a "thousand dollar an order" customer nor do they all end up that way, but fail to meet their expectations and each one can end up costing you that much.

I have been following the posts of Seigel's plight of customer service failures, as well as his others and even visited his website a few times to confirm issues. There seems to be a commonality in each of his apologies, posts and on his website of flippant dismissal of poor customer service and veiled smugness and superiority when he is called to the carpet on these issues. His family's company has been in business for many years and claims their combined expertise as his own which very well may be legitimate. However, when he refers to the members of this community as "hobbyists" it alludes to a position of contempt and that some of the customers that buy from him should be grateful that he should even include them in his "empire". Whether or not if this is how he truly feels or not, that is indeed the perception that he has put forth and "perception is reality".

As to making amends, one of the first thing I tell any client "If you are wrong, make it right, right now", nothing soothes a burning fire like a lot of cool water quickly but if you wait too long there is nothing left to save. In the one case of an ongoing issue from November to February, I want you to imagine that you are a "hobbyist" with that long awaited big break order that could launch you into the realization of your dreams and career of leather working. But the company that you chose to supply you has not only shipped you the wrong product, doesn't pick up or send the right product and further more doesn't refund your money until months later prohibiting you from buying supplies from another company and delivering your customer's order to them ("hobbyists are often on a very low margin and tight budget). Possibly the customer gets tired of waiting, cancels the order and your dreams, future business and reputation takes a major hit from your viewpoint. It is going to leave a very bitter taste in your mouth for a long time.

If you are truly trying to make amends and not just trying to spin the PR back somewhat to your favor, do not place restrictions on clients you may have disappointed in resolving these matters. Fixing a problem is not convenient for anyone involved but if you are the one that failed to deliver what was promised, you should not even consider your own convenience in the matter at all, just work hard, bend over backwards and fix it now. Anything less is another glimpse of what your clients will perceive as dishonest contrition and insincere effort.

As to a mob mentality, research has shown time and time again, that only one, two at best out of ten complains when they feel they have been disappointed by a company. I feel what you are witnessing is those other eight or nine that still have that very bitter taste in their mouths and are finally spewing it back in the direction it belongs. News travels fast these days and bad news travels even faster, it also may be that part of what you are seeing as "kicking the man while he is down" is the many that felt disappointed or betrayed by this company talking to others non publicly and those people responding in defense of their confidant being too shy or timid to speak out for themselves.

Mr. Seigel has asked for this response because of his poorly chosen words and actions. I illustrate this by asking you to imagine hanging a "kick me" sign on your back and then stay in your

house, you will probably receive a few kicks depending how you have been acting lately but go outside and down the streets, you will receive many more kicks... from people who do not even know you simply because you asked for it. Give them any reason at all, you act or speak like a jerk for instance and many more will be obliged to kick you. Leatherworkers of all kinds still have a guild mentality to them and are an extended family of sorts, if it is perceived that you have mistreated or run down one, then you invite the disdain and correction of the entire family, even cousin Ernie that is normally antisocial and hard to get along with or Uncle Joe that thinks everyone in his family is an idiot, you have given the entire family a reason to turn their negative attention on you and really examine what is actually going on and they will unite against you if there is the slightest reason to do so. The reasoning is if you do it to my brother, then you will do it to me.

Finally, Mr Siegel I am responding directly to you. I know you read my posts because some of my "phrasing" has found it's way to your website whether it was conscience or not. That is a good thing because it demonstrates an ability to learn and adapt good advice when you hear it. I have some more for you to absorb if you are willing to try and repair an aspect of your marketplace concerning this board.

1. Accept your mistakes and your company's mistakes as your sole responsibility, your name is on the door the buck stops with you. Everyone makes mistakes and you will not be diminished as a person or a company leader for accepting responsibility but will actually restore your position as such. Refrain yourself from making or writing statements out of anger, frustration or fatigue. Your family's company did not survive this long on a basis of rash actions and there is no need for that behavior to continue. Remember little fires spread into big fires and many of the members of this forum are members of many more forums and you are the only one with a bucket of water.

2. Assign a customer service representative with exceptional communication skills or better yet a VP to handle any and all complaints. Do not bounce problems around from staff member to staff member in a game of "hot potato". That rep should report to you on a daily basis and any concern that she is not able to correct, should be addressed by you personally within 24 hours, no exception. Make up a form that includes all contact information including a nighttime phone number and use it for all complaints, follow up without delay on all issues. Getting a phone call at nine o'clock at night from the owner of company will go a long way to making your clients feel better about a problem they may be upset over and that they know you are working on.

3. Giving away thousands of dollars of product does not mean a thing to an individual customer whose order was handled poorly. Do not talk about it as a redeeming factor unless it was given to the individual whose order was an issue. If the customer service issue was handled properly and giving away product was part of your "fix", then that client will rave about your customer service and that is worth millions of PR dollars and you can always write it off as advertising expense as 100% deductible. Just in case you didn't know, just put a stamp or sticker on it and it becomes a sign or a business card or brochure and it's a write off.

4. Never, ever try to influence the reputation or perception of your company or products by anything other than upfront, transparent actions of honorable means. It will be perceived as deceptive and manipulative and is always going to be a blight on your company's image regardless of the shortcut it seems to be at the time.

5. Learn your clientele, big and small, if they do not fit your business model then redirect them to a supplier that can service them properly... do it gracefully. They will remember it as being aware of their needs and not concerned as much as your own. Never isolate a segment of your customers as you did by implying that "hobbyists" are less than desirable as clients, intentional or not. Many of us who make a living by our art and those that only supplement their income are very serious and passionate about what they do any attempt to minimize their endeavorers will result in their contempt and your isolation.

"You know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink...but you can drown them"...if you get my meaning. So if you choose to do these suggestions I can promise you that not only will you feel better but your company will experience a renewal and restoration not only with this board but all your clients. Your staff will see and know that you are serious about customer service and will follow your example, those that do not...well they do not deserve to be a part of the legacy that your family built. The members of this board are a very centered, good natured group and would be more than happy to accept you in their world and hearts provided you want to be there!

Well said and much better than I could convey.

Thanks

ferg

[wildrose]

That was very well written!

[reddevil76]

I am one of those who participated in both Ferg's thread and Bar C leather's thread. And yes, I have never bought from Siegel before.

In Ferg's thread, there was a comment regarding posters who participated without having been a customer of Siegel. That same comment likened us to rabid dogs. Not very charming.

In Bar C Leather's thread, similar comment, but the description is mob mentality.

I beg to differ here. I believe most of us who participated, but were never a customer, simply expressed outrage at the situation described, no personal attacks. In my own separate thread in another section, when I tried to explain why I was stuck with a bunch of camouflage leather that I have no application for, alot of people expressed outrage at the way my friend played me out. Do they have to know my friend personally to express themselves? NO. Most of us do this hobby in similar budgets and situations, and they felt what I felt and simply expressed themselves.

A few years ago, a young girl from an immigrant family here in Singapore was murdered by a family friend. There was huge public outrage and sympathy. None of the millions who donated money and lobbied for a heavy sentence for the murderer were related to the young girl. Conversely, the murderer did nothing to the families of these millions. But I can't imagine someone entering the crowds and telling them to shut up and go home and that they are acting like rabid dogs simply because the victim is not their family.

It is an extreme example I know. Bad service does not equal murder. But I am trying to illustrate my point. And remember, your opinion of me having an opinion is also an opinion. Geddit?

In any case, from my bad experience posting in Ferg's thread, I thought I'd hold my peace till Johanna posted the comment on advertising. It was then that I expressed my personal opinion that the forum should enjoy equal support from members and sponsors to keep it from bias. I was motivated to do my part, however little, and I did it.

This is the last I will speak of this since there seems to be some objections on other's having an opinion.

But the last opinion I would like to offer is this: If Mr Siegel is sincere in making amends, I DO HAVE TO AGREE that the email is the best possible way. Note that he has opened the offer to the last 100 years. If he makes such an offer, then he must have been prepared to have people take him up on his offer.

Now, even if he focus all his attention on hobbyists and not the big guys, he still needs to attend to daily business, take his meals, go to the washroom, and what have you. Suppose you are that customer who decides to give him one last chance, and you call just conveniently when he is out for lunch, and you go "Bah! Nothing has changed". What happens?

If I am expecting a flood of calls, and I wish to single handedly resolve all of them, and make sure I do not miss any, and make sure I understand them correctly, and make sure I have details for tracing back records, the written word is still the best and this means email.

However, I might go easy on free gift offers as the intention might not always be interpreted correctly.

Over and out.

[roo4u]

very interesting reading on some of these threads....i too had experienced the siegel customer service first hand. however, i do not believe in holding a grudge. everyone goes through rough times of one kind or another, im going to give siegel leather the benefit of the doubt here and hope for the sake of their employees they can get their s**t together.

at some point in the future if they happen to offer something i want i will most likely give them another try.

[TwinOaks]

One of the aspects of business that I've learned is that " When you do right by a customer, they may tell a friend; if you do poorly by a customer they will tell ten."

At the time of this post there are 14783 members on this forum (#14784 is pending approval), and even if only half are active....that's still over seven thousand people that read these posts.....not counting the non-member visitors of which there are currently just over a hundred visitors (real time).

It is my sincere hope that Siegel Leather can reestablish their name and credibility to those who have had issues, and continue the service that has made them one of the top suppliers.

[pinkchaps]

WTH????, what does the man have to do, stake himself to a cross in public and let people throw flaming knives at him. The man does have a BUSINESS to attend to. Why is everyone so quick to Not give him a chance to make ammends. How about putting yourself in his shoes for just a day, he has been nothing but bashed and trashed on this site for the last three months and I think he deserves a break. He has admitted he has had problems with customer service this past year. So how about we give the man a chance and see what happens.

Bryan

As far as being "bashed and trashed" -in my opinion you reap what you sew. I have given him numerous, numerous chances to make ammends. In fact I have an e-mail that i wrote in January 2008 complaining about his customer service. He wrote me back and in part of the email he told me, and i quote this-copy and paste actually " The only "salesman" in the company is myself. I concentrate on accounts which have the capabilities of spending, minimum over 1M/year." I think its safe to say he has probably lost most of these customers also or he wouldn't have the time to get on a forum to defend himself.

As far as Mr. Siegel having a business to run...I too, have a business to run and really do not have the time to deal with his bad customer service, receiving bad leather, and just the overall run around of dealing with with him. While we are on the topic of running a business I highly doubt I would have many customers if I told them to email me if they had a problem because I was much to busy to talk to them. Talk is cheap....

[CustomDoug]

Not sure if email is the way to go..... I wrote mr.Siegel back in November about obtaining some garment horsehide (after he'd asked me here to email him about it directly). He answered my email by asking how much I would be needing. I replied something to the effect of "not a whole lot at first, but potentially larger quantities would come" - I still haven't gotten a reply to that. I don't hold it against him though, I knew it was a shot in the dark as HH is hard to come by and maybe not enough profit in it for him to bother with. An email to that effect would have taken two minutes and would have been nice, but oh well. I would have never brought that up if it weren't for these suggestions to email Siegel. I sure ain't trying to be part of any mob mentality, just stating fact here.

[StevenSiegel]

Not sure if email is the way to go..... I wrote mr.Siegel back in November about obtaining some garment horsehide (after he'd asked me here to email him about it directly). He answered my email by asking how much I would be needing. I replied something to the effect of "not a whole lot at first, but potentially larger quantities would come" - I still haven't gotten a reply to that. I don't hold it against him though, I knew it was a shot in the dark as HH is hard to come by and maybe not enough profit in it for him to bother with. An email to that effect would have taken two minutes and would have been nice, but oh well. I would have never brought that up if it weren't for these suggestions to email Siegel. I sure ain't trying to be part of any mob mentality, just stating fact here.

After this, I will not be checking this board at all.

1) I specialize in leathers and it is very EASY to come by garment horsehide. As it is not a stock item, we would only purchase it for a customer if the quantity purchased was economically viable.. Perhaps this was not clear to you in my response. I tried to be polite by answering you. I am sorry that you have decided to have taken your private question & my response to a public forum to ADD TO THE HATRED THAT HAS BEEN DIRECTED TOWARDS ME.

[Spence]

He just doesn't get it. Too bad.