copyright infringement?

[Leatherbaron]

That becomes a grey area as well if it's only a few then it probably won't be a problem but if it's a significant quantity you would normally have to pay a licensing fee to the company whose emblem it is (This is how it is in Australia, could be different in other countries).

Clair

Edited February 2, 2012 by Leatherbaron

[cem]

It seems you edited your post but I'll address it anyway I still received the post in my notifications and after nearly four years since this thread was made I am clarifying things as some people still don't seem to know the meaning of grey area in this context, I've had a few people over the years who haven't stayed around that long PM me jumping up and down about this and I am tired of it.

I am a graphic designer by trade and know how copyright and licensing works but I am not a copyright attorney and don't try to be therefore I have directed anyone recently to look at the main copyright website for their country most governments websites link to one.

For specialised information a copyright attorney in your country of origin should be sought out, in the years I've been here no one has put their hand up to say they are one, perhaps someone is but doesn't want to be bombarded due to the many nationalities that post here. So if you need specialised information on copyright or licensing seek an attorney out or perhaps maybe, that first port of call should be contacting the company or artist who's artwork you want to use.

Now for that grey area Harley, any other company or artist may or may not go after you for using their artwork on a limited amount of things for sale as a crafts person note I said limited and crafts person, it is still copyright or trademark infringement but it is up them whether they will enforce it or not, chasing people for a small amount may not be worth it to them to go for damages and a cease and desist order may suffice but it doesn't mean that they won't and you have no one to blame but yourself if things do go pear shaped ie that's the risk you alone are taking if you decide to go down this path without asking the proper permission to use artwork that you didn't create.

Leatherbaron you were quite polite and I am not having a go at you but lets just say some others weren't privately over a seemingly simple comment.

So this will be my last comment on this and I will not be answering any more PM's regarding it.

Clair

[mrdabeetle]

I see this as an intellectual property issue. There is a loophole called "Fair Use". This poorly defined term is how people can make and sell unlicensed replicas. If the item is a "one off", there is usually no cause for concern. Most of the time, this falls into the realm of "Fair Use". If the item is part of your standard product line, you will get into trouble if caught.

[Massive]

The pattern thing is correct, the copyright applies to the instrument, the book, or paper pattern, one may not copy that. Some special categories of patterned items may be patentable, though they are essentially patterns. Boat hulls for instance. This is a change that came in about 10-15 years ago, and is not retroactive.

If you made saddlebags with the Harley logo on them, and they called you on it. You could simply agree to surrender them, I would have thought. They can only come after you for copying them if they can prove you did, possession would not seem to be a sufficient basis for that assumption. Your mileage may vary.

[mcmillen67]

If I by a Tandy cell phone case, tool it with one of their template designs and sell it, is that ok? If I use that same cell phone case "as" a template, use my own leather that I buy from Tandy can I tool it and sell it with my own carving on it? I guess the question is where is the line drawn. I could cut a peice of leather for a cell phone case of my own design, but there may be someone out there that has already created one and Patented that design. Or I may have drawn something, carved it, and later someone sees what I have created, and sue me. So, basically, I just unknowingly infringed on someones art?. Like I said before, I have seen many things out there selling that are VERY similar that could have been "stolen" or just a coincidence. I am fairly artistic, and have done some cool drawings that I could use for leather. With just starting out I have friends that want to buy some of the stuff I've made for practice peices and I want to be clear on what I can and can't do. Perhaps I should start reading up on the "legalities" of this stuff. One of the wallets I did for my son was a "Jackass insignia, I didn't sell it, but thats what my kid wanted on his wallet. That would be concidered wrong, even tho it wasn't sold? This is only a hobby for me, but if I can sell some of the stuff I do for practice I'd like to, unless it turns into a pain in the a**.

This should be o.k. Tandy has blurbs on their site about "great buy for resellers". Same thing with the roller embossing patterns that you can use on a machine to do a whole bunch of belts. After all, who would really need 100 belts with the same patterns. this is obviously intended to be used by someone who will take the leather, use the tool to emboss it, and then sell it at their shop or booth or whatever. If I'm wrong on this, can somebody from Tandy please correct me.

[Northmount]

Tandy is in the business of selling their patterns. If you distribute their patterns on the web, you are infringing on their rights. If you make duplicates of their patterns and sell the duplicate patterns, you are infringing on their rights.

"For the most part" if you copy a logo at a customer's request, the customer is responsible. But be cautious. I am familiar with a case several years ago where a welding shop made milk barn stanchions that were a copy of the dairy's existing stanchions that were patented. The patent owner sent a representative out to the welding shop (since they didn't get the sale). When they found that the welding shop was not selling stanchions, but making them under the customer's direction, the patent owner backed off and just said "Don't make any for sale". The patent owner did not go after the dairy and I don't know what they were told, but they didn't come asking for anymore to be built.

It is really best to stay clear of the problem. The big companies have a lot deeper pockets than you do. Ask or have your client ask for permission, stating what it will be used for and how many will be made. Keep a copy of the permission statement.

Even making a logo that looks similar and could easily be confused with a deep-pockets logo (or any copyrighted / patented item) for sale to someone else could take you down a road you don't want to go.

CTG

[Handstitched]

G'day,

What an interesting, but very serious topic.

I have often used ( Australian) beer bottle tops and turned them into fridge magnets, with or without some sort of leather fob or surround. ( I am a consumer of such beverages, hence the good supply of bottle tops)

I did get an opportunity to speak to a rep from one of the (Aussie) beer companies, he said quote:

" We don't mind you using the logos, just don't alter or change the logo in any way" .

Fair enough.

We also have to remember, that there are many that use beer cans for ' beer can art ', as in cut up beer cans/soft drink cans and turn them into cars, bikes etc, and often with logos clearly visible, and sell them at markets etc.

Have a look at these:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40990121@N05/7899941714/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40990121@N05/7899942654/in/photostream

and the beer cans:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40990121@N05/6748011377/in/photostream

Apart from being creative, I also see them as a recycling initiative , as well as art.

Any thoughts??

HS

[Northmount]

1346671347[/url]' post='262907']

G'day,

What an interesting, but very serious topic.

I have often used ( Australian) beer bottle tops and turned them into fridge magnets, with or without some sort of leather fob or surround. ( I am a consumer of such beverages, hence the good supply of bottle tops)

Apart from being creative, I also see them as a recycling initiative , as well as art.

Any thoughts??

HS

As long as you are using their product, re-purposing what they have sold, there isn't much they can do about it, even if they don't like it. The only caution I (not a lawyer) see is not to make something that defames the company. Heck, they probably want you to buy more so you can make more art!

CTG

Edited September 3, 2012 by northmount

[Handstitched]

G'Day again,

I agree ( I'm not a lawyer either) , I also see it as free advertising for the companies in a unique and creative way.

Who knows, they may even ask me for an order.

thanks for your reply.

Best regards,

HS

[JohnBarton]

I see this as an intellectual property issue. There is a loophole called "Fair Use". This poorly defined term is how people can make and sell unlicensed replicas. If the item is a "one off", there is usually no cause for concern. Most of the time, this falls into the realm of "Fair Use". If the item is part of your standard product line, you will get into trouble if caught.

It's not a loophole. Fair Use does not cover commercial works. It is 100% illegal to take a copyrighted image or a trademarked logo and use it commercially. Fair use is broad but it draws the line at reproduction and distribution. Fair use covers excerpting for commentary, use in satire, and personal reproduction as a backup.

Even one-off items are infringing if the copyrighted/trademarked images are used. That's the law. Now will someone come after you? Probably not unless you get a lot of attention for your work. I will admit right here and now that I use images and trademarks in my work when people request it. I don't see any harm in putting the logo of a football team on a case other than I find it tacky personally. I am not selling the case as a Colts case and the way I see it is that it's not really much different if I tool the Colts logo on the case or the customer goes and buys a Colts patch and glues it to the case. I guess one could argue that the Colts get some small revenue from the sale of that patch somehow and not any from my use of it. Well, that's offset well enough by the lifetime of advertising my $500 leather case is providing them. I will take my chances on being contacted about it.

Now we do agree that if I put up a page on my site with all the team logos and advertise I can and will do any "team" case that this is way over the line.

Regarding replicas. There is no copyright on utilitarian items. The design on a leather bag is not copyrightable. It can only be protected under a design patent which specifically covers the decorative look and style. This costs money and time to get and is usually worthless to the small maker as there is not enough money to defend this patent when it's infringed. Nothing about a created piece is copyrightable unless it's non-utilitarian art. So no loophole is needed to create replicas of anything. The only exception to this is called trade dress which is a sort of copyright that exists when a company's products become known for a particular style. This area is however the slipperiest to establish and defend. This is also why the big brands in fashion bags put their logos all over the bags. This makes it impossible to replicate the bag without infringing on the trademark. However the bag itself can be duplicated without any trademarks and this is perfectly legal in the USA and most countries. Not all countries though, the law varies slightly throughout the world.

That said on a general note copying is what has led us to where we are as a species. I mean individually we can be against it and I personally have lost millions in revenue to being copied. But the reality is that anything made that is useful or attractive is going to be copied. Biologically we are copies of our parents, socially we are copies of our societies norms. As makers most of us learned by copying the teacher's example.

Innovation only happens through copying and tinkering with what has come before. So while it hurts us individually when we see our work copied in the grander scale we have contributed to the ongoing evolution of the species by making something worth copying. Each of us has to make our own decisions as to how far we will go when making things in using other people's ideas. Hopefully instead of just aping what others have done we tweak it and instill some new perspective. If not then at least we spread good ideas hopefully attached to quality work.

I didn't go back and read the rest of the thread. Probably read it before but I am just rambling here......