Clone Machines - 205 Or 441?

[amuckart]

I've read quite a few threads on Adler 205-370s and figure they're the ne plus ultra of machines in their class, but I'm curious about the clones. Most manufacturers seem to have gone with 441 clones except for Cowboy/Hightex who make both 441 and 205 clones. is there a particular reason for that?

The only difference I can spot on spec is that the 441s will do a couple more mm than the 205s and the 205s are a bit more finnicky to time and set the hook than the 441s. Either will probably be an excellent machine for what I want to do but I'd be interested in whether there's much in the way of practical difference between a 441 clone and a 205 clone. For me, the extra couple of mm of capacity isn't a major thing since I have a No.6 for the really big stuff.

Thanks.

[Leather Guru]

I've read quite a few threads on Adler 205-370s and figure they're the ne plus ultra of machines in their class, but I'm curious about the clones. Most manufacturers seem to have gone with 441 clones except for Cowboy/Hightex who make both 441 and 205 clones. is there a particular reason for that?

The only difference I can spot on spec is that the 441s will do a couple more mm than the 205s and the 205s are a bit more finnicky to time and set the hook than the 441s. Either will probably be an excellent machine for what I want to do but I'd be interested in whether there's much in the way of practical difference between a 441 clone and a 205 clone. For me, the extra couple of mm of capacity isn't a major thing since I have a No.6 for the really big stuff.

Thanks.

Good morning,

I bought a techsew 5100 some years ago and it's supposed to be a copy of a 441. The 205 is similar in function as the 441 . You know triple entrainment . But the main difference is the lenght of the arm. You could drive a truck through the opening. Anyway all those machines are made in china these days. I changed the type of needle on mine (put in a shorter one cause the shorter the needle the less flexible and better regularity in the stitch lenght when using finer needles)

[jimsaddler]

Hi Al

There is a difference in the two Machines. Price. The 441 is less complicated than the 205 Clone. I use both in my workshop as a comparison. the 205 is a nicer looking Machine but it will not do as many tasks as the 441. The Head is too bulky to get close to a lot of Aussie Jobs. Where the 441 is able to get up close to Knee Pads and Bulky items. Plus there are more attachments come with the 441s.

That said experienced 205 operators who have used the Cowboy 205 have remarked that they can not pick and difference between the original and the Clone.

The 441 clone is more user friendly if things go wrong also as the Timing is easier to set (over the phone to a user with a little Mechanical knowledge) in the event of a problem. The 205 needs to return to base. These things aside it comes down to bang for buck. 441 is cheaper and does more with the long Arm as standard.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

I've read quite a few threads on Adler 205-370s and figure they're the ne plus ultra of machines in their class, but I'm curious about the clones. Most manufacturers seem to have gone with 441 clones except for Cowboy/Hightex who make both 441 and 205 clones. is there a particular reason for that?

The only difference I can spot on spec is that the 441s will do a couple more mm than the 205s and the 205s are a bit more finnicky to time and set the hook than the 441s. Either will probably be an excellent machine for what I want to do but I'd be interested in whether there's much in the way of practical difference between a 441 clone and a 205 clone. For me, the extra couple of mm of capacity isn't a major thing since I have a No.6 for the really big stuff.

Thanks.

[CowboyBob]

I have to agree with Jim,the 205 might look a little nicer but it doesn't sew any different than the 441's,also when you change needle size on a 205 you have to change the shim on the shuttle,which can get annoying after while.

Bob

[oldtimer]

I have to agree with Jim,the 205 might look a little nicer but it doesn't sew any different than the 441's,also when you change needle size on a 205 you have to change the shim on the shuttle,which can get annoying after while.

Bob

I have an Adler 205-374 and I have changed the needle size without changing those shims and the machine has never skipped a stitch so far !? ( Maybe it is because I´ve never been aware of the existance of these shims ?? )

I have seen them in the Weaver catalog but never figured out what they were used for !

/ Knut

[CowboyBob]

Knut,

If your machine has the larger one like a #230 in it & you put in a smaller needle you'll be ok except it might skip on thicker material.Now if you have a #180 shim in your machine it only has the clearance or opening for the 180 needle & when you go larger like a #230 you'll damage the point of your hook real quick because it wider than the gap.SO you might want to take the 2-screws out & see what # of shim you have they have the # on them.

Adler uses a slotted head screw for the shim screws this pic is from a Cowboy 205

Bob

[amuckart]

Thanks all, I appreciate the info.

[oldtimer]

Thanks all, I appreciate the info.

It seems that what you don´ty know doesn´t bother you !

/ Knut

[hidepounder]

I've read quite a few threads on Adler 205-370s and figure they're the ne plus ultra of machines in their class, but I'm curious about the clones. Most manufacturers seem to have gone with 441 clones except for Cowboy/Hightex who make both 441 and 205 clones. is there a particular reason for that?

The only difference I can spot on spec is that the 441s will do a couple more mm than the 205s and the 205s are a bit more finnicky to time and set the hook than the 441s. Either will probably be an excellent machine for what I want to do but I'd be interested in whether there's much in the way of practical difference between a 441 clone and a 205 clone. For me, the extra couple of mm of capacity isn't a major thing since I have a No.6 for the really big stuff.

Thanks.

I can't comment on the 441's, but I've had a 205-370 for ten years and I've never had to touch the timing. And while it's typical to sew from 138 to 415, I also sew with 69 thread without much adjustment, regularly, in spite of everyone telling me it's impossible. I think it's a great machine.........

Bobby

[Ken Nelson]

I can't comment on the 441's, but I've had a 205-370 for ten years and I've never had to touch the timing. And while it's typical to sew from 138 to 415, I also sew with 69 thread without much adjustment, regularly, in spite of everyone telling me it's impossible. I think it's a great machine.........

Bobby

Do you change shims when changing needle size? Ken

[amuckart]

Good morning,

I bought a techsew 5100 some years ago and it's supposed to be a copy of a 441. The 205 is similar in function as the 441 . You know triple entrainment . But the main difference is the lenght of the arm. You could drive a truck through the opening. Anyway all those machines are made in china these days. I changed the type of needle on mine (put in a shorter one cause the shorter the needle the less flexible and better regularity in the stitch lenght when using finer needles)

Do you have more photos of the roller guide on your machine? I like the style that swings down a whole lot more than the ones that bolt on next to the needle plate, but I've never seen one on a 441 before.

Cheers.

[evandailey]

Do you have more photos of the roller guide on your machine? I like the style that swings down a whole lot more than the ones that bolt on next to the needle plate, but I've never seen one on a 441 before.

Cheers.

That's the style that Weaver Leather is selling for their new 441 Clone Machine. I was at their showroom a couple of weeks ago and Vernon Weaver spent a good 45 mins showing the machine to me.

[amuckart]

Neat, I hope they become available for other 441 clones too.

[Leather Guru]

Do you have more photos of the roller guide on your machine? I like the style that swings down a whole lot more than the ones that bolt on next to the needle plate, but I've never seen one on a 441 before.

Cheers.

Hello Man,

Sorry for the delay in sending the pics but my PC was funky after I tried to install software for a printer and I'm just now back up . When I ordered the machine I asked the guy to make sure it had a swing up guide and alas it was so delivered . I'll be doing a blog soon with Luke Hattley about what I think are some definet musts for a sewing guide.

Good luck in finding one .

By the way I also ordered 3 extra sets of what you guys call blanket feet and made my own left and right and double. I also ground off the teeth on the big one . Now two years later I see them feet can be ordered but I don't like a small foot with a hole in it , can't see where the needle is going to hit

Edited September 3, 2011 by Leather Guru

[amuckart]

Thanks for the extra pictures. Now to find out who else has those or if they're a weaver exclusive.

[leatherkind]

I just received and installed a drop down roller fabric guide for Cowboy 4500 from Bob Kovar. Thank you Bob for great advise and speedy shipment.

I am not sure i did it perfectly but it works great and it is surprisingly rigid.

I have attached it with 6mm bolts for which holes were drilled and tapped.

It is installed as low as possible so that I did not have to change the angle of the manual presser foot lift handle.

There are two modifications to existing parts however.

1. The ball handle of the manual presser foot lift is grinded by about 1/4" so it would not hit the roller guide mechanism.

2. Roller guide altitude limiting bolt is shortened and the nut that secures it is put on the other side of that back fixture. That too was done to avoid it being an obstacle.

[Leather Guru]

I just received and installed a drop down roller fabric guide for Cowboy 4500 from Bob Kovar. Thank you Bob for great advise and speedy shipment.

I am not sure i did it perfectly but it works great and it is surprisingly rigid.

I have attached it with 6mm bolts for which holes were drilled and tapped.

It is installed as low as possible so that I did not have to change the angle of the manual presser foot lift handle.

There are two modifications to existing parts however.

1. The ball handle of the manual presser foot lift is grinded by about 1/4" so it would not hit the roller guide mechanism.

2. Roller guide altitude limiting bolt is shortened and the nut that secures it is put on the other side of that back fixture. That too was done to avoid it being an obstacle.

Nice job man ,

I think Bob is gonna be selling a lot of guides . In my opinion these guides should be standard equipment on those machines !

You should now make yourself a straight guide ( without roller ) which will ride better on top of the leather as in your picture .

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Thanks for the extra pictures. Now to find out who else has those or if they're a weaver exclusive.

There is a similar style available for the 205. Hopefully I can get them from my contacts in Taiwan and try them on a 441.

[KAYAK45]

OK. Now you guys have me confused and I don't like that.

Why won't the ""weaver 441 clone", "swing down guide", work on the "Other 441 clones"?

Or does it?

Looks like a better guide than the lower plate guides.

Kevin

EDIT. Sorry i hadn't gone to second page. Now I grock. Will order Bob's today!!!

Edited September 27, 2011 by KAYAK45

[hidepounder]

Do you change shims when changing needle size? Ken

Ken I didn't mean to be un-responsive....I just missed your question. The answer is no, I don't change the shims. Vernon says that's pretty unusual, that I shouldn't be able to use 69 thread...especially without having skipping problems. When I bought this machine I was told it was the very last model which was imported from where ever the hell they were manufacturing them (Czechoslovakia? ), before they began making them wherever the hell they're making them now Anyway according to Vernon I should change the shims because his are metal and much more accurate than what I have. I'm a little concerned about messing with them. My philosophy is usually "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I will confess, however, that I am limited to certain stitch lengths. In other words I can't use 69 thread and sew at 6 spi. I have to sew at 9 -12spi, which is fine fore me because I prefer a harness looking stitch to the more common "western" stitch anyway. Conversely I cannot sew with 207 at 12spi....I must increase the length to about 6-8spi. So however my machine was made, it allows to do things I shouldn't be able to and yet I am not able to do some things which others can. Heck I didn't even know my machine had shims until I spoke with Vernon at Sheridan this summer, LOL!

The first photo is of a belt sewn with 92 thread @ 12spi. The second is of a purse sewn with 69 thread @ 10-12 spi (I don't remember which). Both were sewn on 205/370 Adler.

Edited September 27, 2011 by hidepounder

[Wizcrafts]

Ken I didn't mean to be un-responsive....I just missed your question. The answer is no, I don't change the shims. Vernon says that's pretty unusual, that I shouldn't be able to use 69 thread...especially without having skipping problems. When I bought this machine I was told it was the very last model which was imported from where ever the hell they were manufacturing them (Czechoslovakia? ), before they began making them wherever the hell they're making them now Anyway according to Vernon I should change the shims because his are metal and much more accurate than what I have. I'm a little concerned about messing with them. My philosophy is usually "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I will confess, however, that I am limited to certain stitch lengths. In other words I can't use 69 thread and sew at 6 spi. I have to sew at 9 -12spi, which is fine fore me because I prefer a harness looking stitch to the more common "western" stitch anyway. Conversely I cannot sew with 207 at 12spi....I must increase the length to about 6-8spi. So however my machine was made, it allows to do things I shouldn't be able to and yet I am not able to do some things which others can. Heck I didn't even know my machine had shims until I spoke with Vernon at Sheridan this summer, LOL!

Here is a photo of 92 thread @ 12spi on my Adler 205/370.

I have mentioned this before, but will do so again. It is possible to create a bigger loop for the point to pic up. There is a combination of thigs that can improve the loop size. Most notably, is to try using Schmetz needles, which are made to push more of the loop to the right side of the needle.

Next, try reducing the travel of the check spring, which holds the top thread under tension as the take up lever descends.

Finally, try using one needle size smaller than usual. So, instead of using a #18, try a #16 needle, if you can find any. It will pass #69 thread quite nicely, but with less slack.

Lastly, alter the timing of the needle bar to ascend a bit more before the point passes the cutout above the eye. Make sure that the point is well above the actual eye.

Applying these changes may improve the small thread sew-ability, without sacrificing large thread stitch sizes. The increased travel in the needle may allow you to lengthen the stitches with thin tread, should you ever want to. The bigger loops would allow you to reduce or lengthen the stitches for bigger thread. This will also make the machine sew more reliably in reverse.

The above are my opinions. But, they have worked for me.

[Ken Nelson]

Ken I didn't mean to be un-responsive....I just missed your question. The answer is no, I don't change the shims. Vernon says that's pretty unusual, that I shouldn't be able to use 69 thread...especially without having skipping problems. When I bought this machine I was told it was the very last model which was imported from where ever the hell they were manufacturing them (Czechoslovakia? ), before they began making them wherever the hell they're making them now Anyway according to Vernon I should change the shims because his are metal and much more accurate than what I have. I'm a little concerned about messing with them. My philosophy is usually "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I will confess, however, that I am limited to certain stitch lengths. In other words I can't use 69 thread and sew at 6 spi. I have to sew at 9 -12spi, which is fine fore me because I prefer a harness looking stitch to the more common "western" stitch anyway. Conversely I cannot sew with 207 at 12spi....I must increase the length to about 6-8spi. So however my machine was made, it allows to do things I shouldn't be able to and yet I am not able to do some things which others can. Heck I didn't even know my machine had shims until I spoke with Vernon at Sheridan this summer, LOL!

The first photo is of a belt sewn with 92 thread @ 12spi. The second is of a purse sewn with 69 thread @ 10-12 spi (I don't remember which). Both were sewn on 205/370 Adler.

That is some NICE stitching. Thank you for the information. Ken

[RockyAussie]

On 29/08/2011 at 6:01 PM, Leather Guru said:

Good morning,

I bought a techsew 5100 some years ago and it's supposed to be a copy of a 441. The 205 is similar in function as the 441 . You know triple entrainment . But the main difference is the lenght of the arm. You could drive a truck through the opening. Anyway all those machines are made in china these days. I changed the type of needle on mine (put in a shorter one cause the shorter the needle the less flexible and better regularity in the stitch lenght when using finer needles)

Just wondering what needle system would be the next size shorter than the standard 794 for the 441? I can't find a chart of needle lengths with diameters etc.

[Constabulary]

2 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Just wondering what needle system would be the next size shorter than the standard 794 for the 441? I can't find a chart of needle lengths with diameters etc.

System 328 / 214x2  I´d say

[RockyAussie]

Thanks Constabulary. Would you know how to find the length measurements on that system? I believe that this one fits the 45k Singer but I don't have one to check.