Greystone Report post Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) while asking many questions ??,,,searching,,,endlessly many or which have been asked, repeatedly about sewing ? Various machines and looking for a quality end product. the 441 clones lead the list for $ spent vs value IMHO. what about work space, and easy of use, and if using a shorter arm machine ADVANTAGES OR DISADVAVTAGES of the short throat over the really long Holsters, tack repair and construction,saddle building ,,which fits most or least with 277 and larger thread Campbells 9" throat,,, best stitch,,,,, pricey but not out of budget Union lockstich 8-12"?? faster speed and stitch quality 441 clones 9"--- to the 25" arms good all around workhorse trying to make a smart choice to do, heavier work and not waste $ with a poor choice and end up with one of everything,,,, I have a consew 227 and singer 211/166 for the lighter duties and seem to be PUSHING it to the limit more than I should,,,, Edited June 14, 2012 by Greystone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted June 15, 2012 Until I got my 16.5" cylinder arm Cowboy CB4500, I used my Union Lockstitch for all heavy sewing. It has a 12" body depth, sews slow or fast and is modified to sew 7/8 inch. I use #277 most of the time, although it can sew with #554 with a #4 needle and #5 awl. It is needle feed, jumping foot. It's also for sale. The Cowboy is what is known as a 441 clone, a modified copy of a Juki TSC 441, with triple feed. Mine sews 7/8 inch, with up to #415 thread. I usually use #277, as that is what I stocked up on for the Union Lockstitch, but it handles #346 just as well. The 9" throat depth 441s are used by folks only sewing along edges, or rather narrow work, like small holsters and animal collars and harness. Most people buy the 16.5 " arm 441 machines. I sewed a saddle on one yesterday. They are great for wide patterns, like Western holsters, weight and gun belts with stitched designs, or other large items that have a lot of internal stitching. The 25" models would do just about anything you can imagine. You could sew buggy fenders and tops on them if you know Amish or Mennonites. Campbell Randall lockstitch machines are the Creme Dela Creme of harness stitchers; a step above my Union Lockstitch. They are awl feed, jump foot machines The Adler 205 can be modified to sew 3/4 inch and is a very smooth harness stitcher. It is available in 12" and 16" models and sews with #346 thread. The CB2500 and GA5-1 type machines, based on the Singer 45k25, are intermediate thickness stitchers, with bottom feed only. They handle #346 thread and sew to about 7/16 inch. The teeth leave marks on the bottom layer, but they are okay for flat straps and tack, where the bottom is not usually seen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greystone Report post Posted June 15, 2012 Thanks Wiz. you have the details and knowledge of these machines,I guess more where or what I'm asking is how people feel about their choice, NOT as much brand of machine, but ?? if you are a holster maker is a Addler 205 or 441 clone a acceptable choice or the campbell the only choice? a tack or harness repair shop/custom builder,, what works best for them Addler 205 or clone and maybe not as much a saddle builder, as a saddler repair shop both english and western whats the best fit??? AND WHY??? I'm personally leaning to the Addler 205, more the campbell but looking for experience and feed back as to pro and cons of the choices Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted June 15, 2012 Okay. I love the stitches laid down by the Union Lockstitch machines. They can be made as loose or tight as one wishes. It can be adjusted for a very light pull, to avoid splitting the cords on linen thread, setting them nicely on the surface. Change the presser foot to the one that has a blade on the front and the stitches lay below the surface. Change the needle bar to the S model and insert the blade and you get a recessed thread channel cut into the bottom. Set to the other extreme, the Union Lockstitch can pull bonded nylon thread so tightly, that it gets recessed into the top grain of the leather, with using a channeling foot. This is a true harness and saddlery machine. Add the fact that you can feather the clutch for one stitch at a time, up to 15 per second, and you have the World's fastest needle and awl stitcher, capable of the tightest stitch in the industry. Oh yeah, the bobbins are 2 1/2" diameter by 3/4" thick inside, tapering to about 3/8" at the top opening. A full bobbin holds about a football field of #277 thread. Operating and re-adjusting a Union Lockstitch requires a learning curve. Ditto for backtacking with one. I do it all the time, but it takes experimentation and some operator trickiness. It's an acquired technique. Then, there is the trick for ending the last stitch with the top thread looped under the work, but not around the bobbin. Baby steps... A weird comparison would be the Union Lockstitch is kind-a like driving a stick and clutch car, where you really need to understand the machine to use it successfully. By contrast, operating a Cobra or Cowboy or Techsew 441 clone, or Adler 205 is like driving a car with an automatic transmission. Set the tensions, choose the correct needle for the thread, load the bobbins, raise the feet, insert the work and sew. Wanna change stitch length? Turn a round nut in or out and the stitch lever moves up (shorter) or down (longer), making shorter or longer stitches. Wanna back-tack? Raise the stitch lever all the way up and voila, you are now sewing backwards, into the same holes. I have sewn on a Randall Lockstitch machine. I would describe it as a quasi religious experience. There was no edge guide, yet I had to maintain a fixed distance from the edges. Then, I had to sew a second row 1/8" in from the outside stitches. The only way to do this is to perform a Vulcan Mind-Meld with the machine and merge into it. I know this sounds like bullshit, but it isn't. It laid down the most perfect stitches I have ever seen, with liquid-waxed, 4 cord, yellow, Barbour's Irish linen thread. The machine makes a sound when it sews, like "tapokita, tapokita ... all day long, machines going tapokita, tapokita. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mogwild Report post Posted June 15, 2012 Because we just acquired a Randall harness machine, I've been feverishly absorbing information about them. I'm a visual learning so the DVD that Dan from Campbell sent me was a great help, and there youtube video's for threading helped me get the machine up and stitching for the first time. I literally stumbled across this YouTube video the other day, it shows what Wiz is talking about with the sound, and shows the control and finesse the machine seems to have (I'm not quite there yet with mine ) Thought I'd share, this seemed as good of thread as any: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Report post Posted June 27, 2012 Grey, I use an Adler 205 and LOVE it... I have used some of the clones, a few lockstiches and settled on the Adler for most of my needs. I am sure a clone would suffice for the $. Andy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steven Kelley Report post Posted June 28, 2012 I have a 441 clone (Cowboy 4500) and an Adler 205. I make holsters and occasionally belts. The fit and finish of the Adler is better than the clone, but when it gets down to performance, they are the same. The stitch quality, tension adjustments, etc, seem to be equal. You can buy a new clone for half the price of a new Adler 205. The clone will have a lifetime warranty, where the Adler most likely will not. In my opinion, owning and using both side by side, the Adler is not worth the extra money. I actually prefer to stitch on the Cowboy. The Cowboy is a little easier to thread and the area around the head/needle plate area is more open, so there is more room to see your work and move the piece around with your hands. The Adler is a bit "smoother" when sewing, but that could also be the difference in the stand, as the stand that came with the Adler is heavier. Having used both, if I were buying another machine right now, I would call Bob and order another Cowboy without a second thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Techsew Ron Report post Posted June 28, 2012 while asking many questions ??,,,searching,,,endlessly many or which have been asked, repeatedly about sewing ? Various machines and looking for a quality end product. the 441 clones lead the list for $ spent vs value IMHO. what about work space, and easy of use, and if using a shorter arm machine ADVANTAGES OR DISADVAVTAGES of the short throat over the really long Holsters, tack repair and construction,saddle building ,,which fits most or least with 277 and larger thread Campbells 9" throat,,, best stitch,,,,, pricey but not out of budget Union lockstich 8-12"?? faster speed and stitch quality 441 clones 9"--- to the 25" arms good all around workhorse trying to make a smart choice to do, heavier work and not waste $ with a poor choice and end up with one of everything,,,, I have a consew 227 and singer 211/166 for the lighter duties and seem to be PUSHING it to the limit more than I should,,,, In terms of cylinder bed length for 441 clones we usually recommend to go for the longest arm you can afford. You never know what kind of items you'll need to sew a few years from now and obviously you want to get the most out of your investment! On the other hand, we do understand that this is a significant investment and for this reason we also offer a more affordable shorter arm machine. You'll be more than happy with this kind of machine for sewing holsters, tack repair and saddle building. Thread size you can use is up to #415. Feel free to give us a call if you need any more advice! Ron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CowboyBob Report post Posted June 28, 2012 I'll have to agree w/Ronnie get the longest you can afford.I do have a saddle maker in Texas that's had our CB3500 for 4 yrs & he says he doesn't need the longer arm & that the little bit of sewing that needs to be done he just hand sews.But since there's just a couple hundred $$ difference most people buy our CB4500 161/2" arm. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted June 28, 2012 Until I got my CB4500, with its 16.5 inch arm, I was limited to 12" inside the harp, on my Union Lockstitch machine. That coincides with the space available on the standard Adler 205, until a few years ago. While 12" is plenty of clearance for most projects, it is not enough when you are sewing a double leather weight lifting belt, or a gun belt that has fishtail stitching. The leather is very stiff at 14 to 16 ounces combined and has a hard time bending to fit inside the 12" harp. A 16.5 inch area makes it much easier to turn the work around. The same applies to large Western holsters. I would definitely recommend that anybody pondering the savings of a few hundred dollars go for the most space they can afford. If you are building large double leather straps, with fancy inside stitching, go for a 25 inch arm machine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greystone Report post Posted July 9, 2012 Long arm it is,,,,,, looks like the King Cobra with the eps is the bomb,,,,working out the details,,, many thanks,,,,,, YA GOTTA LOVE THIS PLACE,,,,,,,,,, GREAT site and sharp members for info,,, David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
