Support A Fellow Leathersmith Reach Her Goals

[HellfireJack]

You need to read all the posts, namely mine and Art's. Many of us have helped folks on this forum with material and tools. I won't send money to anyone that I do not know. That reminds me of the guy standing at an intersection wanting money instead of a job.

ferg

I have read all of the posts Ferg. I'm not saying anyone here isn't helpful to others. There's no finger pointing in any of my posts. I don't really get where you see me saying people here aren't helpful.

I respect your opinion but I've seen Kickstarter work exactly as intended just like this. I think you guys are only seeing the leather work and don't like that someone is trying to get up to speed faster than you all did.

It's just not the same as asking for a handout. This is really no different than buying Girl Scout cookies from a girl scout. She's not begging for money. She's selling you overpriced cookies so she can go do what she wants and you don't buy Girl Scout cookies because you need them even if Thin Mints are as addicting as crack. You buy them because you feel like it and you know it's helping someone.

Just because it took some of you 5+ years of work and waste to get a foot hold doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow your business model. If this was a tech forum and it was some person trying to start a niche for their own rep-rap machine to help drive down the prices of home fab labs I don't think anyone would be dogging her about how she's operating at all. I was into the Maker scene before I started leatherworking so I tend towards encouraging progress in Maker related things rather than hindering it.

The world changes all the time. The internet makes it change even faster. Gotta get used to it. The reed that does not bend in the wind eventually must break.

[DoubleC]

Jack I just don't get what you're saying. I'm not concerned she's starting a business in leather, and I don't mind if she gets up to speed faster than I do. It just ain't gonna be with my money, ;period. And I would be embarrassed to even ask.

I've seen those Kiva ads or something on TV for 3rd world countries to loan people 500 bucks or something so they can start a business. I'm not afraid of those ;people taking away my customers either. Operative word ,LOAN. Cheryl

[HellfireJack]

Jack I just don't get what you're saying. I'm not concerned she's starting a business in leather, and I don't mind if she gets up to speed faster than I do. It just ain't gonna be with my money, ;period. And I would be embarrassed to even ask.

I've seen those Kiva ads or something on TV for 3rd world countries to loan people 500 bucks or something so they can start a business. I'm not afraid of those ;people taking away my customers either. Operative word ,LOAN. Cheryl

snip...

I don't know whether to be angry, insulted or just laugh thinking you couldn't have thought this through or was given some really poor advice.

snip...

Well I wasn't exactly responding to you Cheryl but apparently you do care what she's doing though. I've never been angry or insulted by someone who am I not concerned about nor have I ever told someone whom I don't care about how their personal choices might have been made via bad advice.

Who here is really truly afraid she's going to steal your customers? Raise your hand.

If she does steal your customers do you all honestly think it's how she get there that caused them to bail on you or do you think it would be her products that made them switch?

Seems to me that possible future client theft is a bogus point entirely.

[DoubleC]

Absolutely bogus point. How can we be arguing on the same side?

[HellfireJack]

I agree Jack, every question answered does have that potential. And just to confirm, I'm not arguing either, just talking here.

So in response, asking a question on how to do something vs. kickstarter...asking how to fish vs. asking for help to create a new fish.

This is neither, it's asking for help to buy the fish store. This particular scenario is a request for venture capital to establish a business without providing the normal financials, qualifications or experience a VC proposal would normally contain.

Speaking of which, the question of whether or not this qualifies for Kickstarter came up earlier and based on the description compared to the Kickstarter project guidelines, it's a direct violation of Kickstarter's Guildelines in various areas. It's obvious the reviewer didn't read through the whole 'project' as Kickstarter is meant to finance individual projects or creative works, not start-up businesses. The fact that it's a Staff Pick just adds to the dubious nature of the "review" process. And yes, there are many so-called 'projects' like this on there...but that doesn't make any of them right or a non-violation. Kickstarter even states that they do miss some and they rely on the community to report violations that occur. http://www.kickstart...help/guidelines (see #1, 2.1 & 3.2 ...you have to expand the design & tech to see 2.1)

Now if this had been a request for say, "help me with this project, my goal is to design and create a new style of saddlebag never seen before" then I'd be all for it and probably contribute just to follow the effort and hear back on how it panned out.

I can't really speak to how Kickstarter approves their projects. But looking through her page it looks like she already had a business though and her project is to improve the quality and design of her products and improve the quality of her online store. You're right though, I see projects that are meant to be businesses all the time on Kickstarter. I don't think they care too much as long as it isn't blatent "GIVE ME MONEY FOR THIS FAKE THING I WANT TO TRY" bs. I'm pretty sure they know their site is about commerce. It's mentioned ALL OVER the thing.

Perhaps you should bring the issue to them?

Absolutely bogus point. How can we be arguing on the same side?

Even a broken clock is right at least twice a day.

[Spinner]

I can't really speak to how Kickstarter approves their projects. But looking through her page it looks like she already had a business though and her project is to improve the quality and design of her products and improve the quality of her online store. You're right though, I see projects that are meant to be businesses all the time on Kickstarter. I don't think they care too much as long as it isn't blatent "GIVE ME MONEY FOR THIS FAKE THING I WANT TO TRY" bs. I'm pretty sure they know their site is about commerce. It's mentioned ALL OVER the thing.

Perhaps you should bring the issue to them?

Even a broken clock is right at least twice a day.

Yeah, and I can't for all certainty say how they do either. Part of where I'm coming from is my background with this stuff. I read proposals for my boss (a local venture capitalist) and have to give a report on what they do and don't say.

While her request does discuss the right things like you mentioned, it includes 'fund my life' requests that kill the spirit of it like "buying a camera, building her own e-commerce website (versus using the pay to play prefab store she's in now), etc."

It's goals are also open-ended and immeasurable as the 'goal' is to have a successful business, but by whose metrics & timeframe? There isn't one stated so now the request becomes subjective which creates a disparity between her and her supporters due mainly to varying perceptions.

As for the commerce side of it, I'm sure that goes on. Kickstarter has been abused like that pretty much since inception. Which begs another question on the 'project'...if the goal is to improve quality and design, does that mean that folks supporting the project receive their reward based on the

existing inventory of designs (which is my assumption) or one of the new, improved designs that they are actually there to support?

You may have realized by now that at least for my part this is more educational now for folks, including Mia, who might read this versus bashing on the OP. All in all, I think the main issue folks here were having (going back to the original issue raised i the thread) isn't that they think she's trying to sell them something, it was the oddity of asking the very people she plans to compete with (directly or indirectly) for help in establishing/improving that competition for business. Now, it was mentioned that competition was a BS excuse and while geography and style may inhibit that competition, we're also talking about the internet. That means search engine rankings, pay per click advertisments, etc. all have to be considered. As an example, let's use Cheryl as vendor A (sorry Cheryl ) and Mia proposes her improvement project. Cheryl chips in and gets a token in return. For arguments sake, we'll say their products are of similar quality & execution & style so what we're left with is marketing. Cheryl has a good web presence so on and so forth. Mia, using her funds builds a web site of equal quality design but uses what's left to hire a good SEO firm which gets her site into higher rankings on Google, etc. thus directing traffic to her site before they'd see Cheryl's and ends up with the business. Now, I'm not saying that Mia couldn't do that on her own without the project, or that one donation by itself could kill a business and of course, Cheryl has access to the same resources if she has or can find the funding.

Long story short my point is simply that's where the consideration & hesitation comes from. Helping to improve another's business that will add a layer of dilution & competition to an already saturated market is not a sound business decision no matter how benevolent.

[DoubleC]

Oh thanks Chris Why can't YOU be vendor A? LOL. Seriously though, even though it's been pointed out to me that the local market will just handle so much it isn't my objection. I am on disability, and buy what I need a little at a time and do without some things to keep this business on the right track, and I'm not giving money to a stranger when I'd like to have exactly some of the same things she says she wants to get. And I will have them, but not using your money Chris, or Jack. Maybe I'm naive because I'm not afraid of competition. I think by the time I'm actually a business someone will have thought of every pitfall because I have some great people helping me, you included now :-)

[Mike516]

First of all, I buy girl scout cookies from my neighbors kids because I'm friendly with everyone on my block and their children are good kids so I don't mind. That and I don't want anyone to think I'm a cheap pr*&$ and they're goooood with coffee!

Second, I'm not worried about anyone stealing my customers. I'm just getting started myself, but I let my stuff speak for itself. People will buy it or they won't. If they like someone else's product more than mine, that's their choice and I don't let that kind of thing bother me.

Lastly, I never heard of kickstarter and agree with the camp that won't be mailing any checks. Sorry, but I didn't ask for help starting my small business because I feel it's necessary for me to always earn my own way with no handou...err sorry, what are we calling what she's asking for...permanent loans? Just stating my opinion, to each his own...send her money or don't, that's up to you...but that's my opinion and that's all I have to say about that.

[Mike516]

I have read all of the posts Ferg. I'm not saying anyone here isn't helpful to others. There's no finger pointing in any of my posts. I don't really get where you see me saying people here aren't helpful.

I respect your opinion but I've seen Kickstarter work exactly as intended just like this. I think you guys are only seeing the leather work and don't like that someone is trying to get up to speed faster than you all did.

It's just not the same as asking for a handout. This is really no different than buying Girl Scout cookies from a girl scout. She's not begging for money. She's selling you overpriced cookies so she can go do what she wants and you don't buy Girl Scout cookies because you need them even if Thin Mints are as addicting as crack. You buy them because you feel like it and you know it's helping someone.

Just because it took some of you 5+ years of work and waste to get a foot hold doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow your business model. If this was a tech forum and it was some person trying to start a niche for their own rep-rap machine to help drive down the prices of home fab labs I don't think anyone would be dogging her about how she's operating at all. I was into the Maker scene before I started leatherworking so I tend towards encouraging progress in Maker related things rather than hindering it.

The world changes all the time. The internet makes it change even faster. Gotta get used to it. The reed that does not bend in the wind eventually must break.

In case my girlscout cookie reference looked out of place because some of you didn't bother reading everyone's posts

[DoubleC]

Hey Chris, hate to shoot your theory full of holes, and the internet does even the playing field some, but I just got an order for and epi-pen holster prototype from Ohio when a man met a friend of mine in VA. at a conference that lives here in VT. Hows that for networking, LOL. Covered 1/2 the country in one fell swoop with not a penny paid on PPC :-)

[dirtclod]

You've been there and done it, plus have a financial background. I've been working on my start up since around January I think and I've gotten impatient at times, but I know all the pre work and paperwork will make things smoother when my grant goes through. Was it you who said you thought the number was a little inflated? Because I know my grant's going to be for $1500.00 and that's going to be plenty to get really started good, but of course I do get things myself as I can. It will be nice though to be able to relax just a couple months after the grant before I have to pick up the slack again if things aren't selling as projected. But I can't think that far ahead, LOL, with me it's honestly one foot in front of the other until I can breathe, then I'll look at the big picture :-) But I do appreciate it Chris, this is my weakest area. Cheryl

I don't understand why you upset with her getting money for a start up business. No i'm not send her or anybody else any money because i don't have any extra.

You getting $1500.00 from the state or somebody that you won't have to pay back unless the meaning of a grant has changed.

Edited July 13, 2012 by dirtclod

[DoubleC]

I don't understand why you upset with her getting money for a start up business. No i'm not send her or anybody else any money because i don't have any extra.

You getting $1500.00 from the state or somebody that you won't have to pay back unless the meaning of a grant has changed.

John, FIRST I'/m not upset about her getting money, she's just not getting mine. And the grants are there at Voc for anyone who wants to put in the time and work to get it. You know personally it/'s going on a year because you wrote my very first list of things I would need when I got it that I still happen. AND why are you on my ass all over this board. I said exactly what several other people said, more luck to her just not my money. and since the grant isn't your money I don't understand your point.

I'm simply spending my own money on disability. I paid into SS for years as a school psychologist and before. I'm not spending your money so that leaves you plenty to send her.

Edited July 13, 2012 by DoubleC

[Ken Nelson]

John, FIRST I'/m not upset about her getting money, she's just not getting mine. And the grants are there at Voc for anyone who wants to put in the time and work to get it. You know personally it/'s going on a year because you wrote my very first list of things I would need when I got it that I still happen. AND why are you on my ass all over this board. I said exactly what several other people said, more luck to her just not my money. and since the grant isn't your money I don't understand your point.

I'm simply spending my own money on disability. I paid into SS for years as a school psychologist and before. I'm not spending your money so that leaves you plenty to send her.

My experience 1. If you earn a chance, it is hard to quit without giving 110%

2. Give someone a chance, you will become a "sucker" before it is over

3. Struggle, seperates true dedication from fantasy

4. Every person I have given tools and instruction to has been a disappointment to me and ussually to themselves, the people that have earned

instruction and traded work or favors for tools have ussually done pretty well and are still friends. Some of them are better than I am and

I am proud of the them.

5. If you want to learn it as bad as you want your next breath, you will learn it. If you are dedicated in learning, starting a business and being a success, you will find a way without handouts. Mentoring, teaching, rewarding dedication, and encouraging is giving a helping hand. Sending money, tools, patterns (free) are handouts. Ussually you will be considered a "sucker". When people earn your help, they respect you for sharing it with them.

My 2 cents worth and I hope I don't offend anyone but I have been through this a lot of times since I started my first shop and experience has made it pretty hard to "help" very many people. I hate that but it is the truth. Ken

[bdt46]

Mia doesn't seem to have much rebuttal to everyone's posts. Makes you wonder if this was all on the up and up!

[cem]

Sigh, this is exactly what happens on the artist forum I mentioned in my first post every time a kickstarter campaign thread starts.

Clair

[Spinner]

Hey Chris, hate to shoot your theory full of holes, and the internet does even the playing field some, but I just got an order for and epi-pen holster prototype from Ohio when a man met a friend of mine in VA. at a conference that lives here in VT. Hows that for networking, LOL. Covered 1/2 the country in one fell swoop with not a penny paid on PPC :-)

Meh, no worries. It actually doesn't shoot it full of holes and it's not my theory. It was an actual test case at a seminar I attended a few years back just related it closer to home for the forum. It simply illustrates Jack's earlier point that some forms of sales wouldn't be affected by anything anyone else does.

Mia doesn't seem to have much rebuttal to everyone's posts. Makes you wonder if this was all on the up and up!

Or she could be working, in school, a sleep, in a country that is 12 hours ahead, etc. and just not have visited the site again yet to see the craziness that has ensued.

[HellfireJack]

Yeah, and I can't for all certainty say how they do either. Part of where I'm coming from is my background with this stuff. I read proposals for my boss (a local venture capitalist) and have to give a report on what they do and don't say.

While her request does discuss the right things like you mentioned, it includes 'fund my life' requests that kill the spirit of it like "buying a camera, building her own e-commerce website (versus using the pay to play prefab store she's in now), etc."

It's goals are also open-ended and immeasurable as the 'goal' is to have a successful business, but by whose metrics & timeframe? There isn't one stated so now the request becomes subjective which creates a disparity between her and her supporters due mainly to varying perceptions.

As for the commerce side of it, I'm sure that goes on. Kickstarter has been abused like that pretty much since inception. Which begs another question on the 'project'...if the goal is to improve quality and design, does that mean that folks supporting the project receive their reward based on the

existing inventory of designs (which is my assumption) or one of the new, improved designs that they are actually there to support?

You may have realized by now that at least for my part this is more educational now for folks, including Mia, who might read this versus bashing on the OP. All in all, I think the main issue folks here were having (going back to the original issue raised i the thread) isn't that they think she's trying to sell them something, it was the oddity of asking the very people she plans to compete with (directly or indirectly) for help in establishing/improving that competition for business. Now, it was mentioned that competition was a BS excuse and while geography and style may inhibit that competition, we're also talking about the internet. That means search engine rankings, pay per click advertisments, etc. all have to be considered. As an example, let's use Cheryl as vendor A (sorry Cheryl ) and Mia proposes her improvement project. Cheryl chips in and gets a token in return. For arguments sake, we'll say their products are of similar quality & execution & style so what we're left with is marketing. Cheryl has a good web presence so on and so forth. Mia, using her funds builds a web site of equal quality design but uses what's left to hire a good SEO firm which gets her site into higher rankings on Google, etc. thus directing traffic to her site before they'd see Cheryl's and ends up with the business. Now, I'm not saying that Mia couldn't do that on her own without the project, or that one donation by itself could kill a business and of course, Cheryl has access to the same resources if she has or can find the funding.

Long story short my point is simply that's where the consideration & hesitation comes from. Helping to improve another's business that will add a layer of dilution & competition to an already saturated market is not a sound business decision no matter how benevolent.

I can't speak to what quality the rewards will be. I'm not the person offering them. All I know is that the rewards are stated. If you want more information you'll have to contact her.

The other stuff is all pretty much moot. What ever the circumstances are you can "what if" it death. What if Mia didn't even know what SEO was? What if Cheryl is far more dedicated and hocks her wares at 20% more locations? What if their clients prefer steampunk to cowboy gear? Who wins the lions share? Moot.

Not helping someone simply because you don't like how they are asking for help is everyone's perogative. I, personally, can't see shooting someone down simply because they tried something new that I didn't understand. I say kudos to her. No one here is forced to support anyones effort. We do it out of kindness and that's the same reason people should support anyone in any endeavor they ask for help with. Giving her an earful about how disgusted you might be because you think she's a beggar is pointless and, in my opinion, a bit insulting.

[Ferg]

Obviously this is going nowhere. We all have our opinions and there is know point in dragging this out which does nothing but create some hard feelings.

Johanna, please lock this thread.

ferg

1342183251[/url]' post='256265']

I can't speak to what quality the rewards will be. I'm not the person offering them. All I know is that the rewards are stated. If you want more information you'll have to contact her.

The other stuff is all pretty much moot. What ever the circumstances are you can "what if" it death. What if Mia didn't even know what SEO was? What if Cheryl is far more dedicated and hocks her wares at 20% more locations? What if their clients prefer steampunk to cowboy gear? Who wins the lions share? Moot.

Not helping someone simply because you don't like how they are asking for help is everyone's perogative. I, personally, can't see shooting someone down simply because they tried something new that I didn't understand. I say kudos to her. No one here is forced to support anyones effort. We do it out of kindness and that's the same reason people should support anyone in any endeavor they ask for help with. Giving her an earful about how disgusted you might be because you think she's a beggar is pointless and, in my opinion, a bit insulting.

[Spinner]

I can't speak to what quality the rewards will be. I'm not the person offering them. All I know is that the rewards are stated. If you want more information you'll have to contact her.

The other stuff is all pretty much moot. What ever the circumstances are you can "what if" it death. What if Mia didn't even know what SEO was? What if Cheryl is far more dedicated and hocks her wares at 20% more locations? What if their clients prefer steampunk to cowboy gear? Who wins the lions share? Moot.

Not helping someone simply because you don't like how they are asking for help is everyone's perogative. I, personally, can't see shooting someone down simply because they tried something new that I didn't understand. I say kudos to her. No one here is forced to support anyones effort. We do it out of kindness and that's the same reason people should support anyone in any endeavor they ask for help with. Giving her an earful about how disgusted you might be because you think she's a beggar is pointless and, in my opinion, a bit insulting.

Just to be clear, I do understand Kickstarter and have supported projects I found to be worthwhile through it. And yes, I gave her a small earful in my original post but I never straight up called her a beggar or deemed the method as disgusting, I simply disagreed with the audience she chose to solicit. It is everyone's prerogative to make decisions whether they be from the heart or the head. Ferg's right though, I've been trying to discuss business scenarios and decision making using the thread details as examples to help enlighten those who may not have much business experience and you decided to bring it back around to "why does everyone have to bash poor Mia" so I'll just chalk this up to us having two different conversations and move on to something more interesting.

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Funny enough one of my daily web comic reads touched on the whole Kickstarter theory this morning so for those interested, here's the link.

Gutters - Issue 319 Warning, they don't censor the artist of the day's language, so if you have 4-letter word sensitivities here's the first line that sums it up:

"With Boom, Top Cow, Zenescope, Image and IDW all using Kickstarter for projects they don't believe in enough to put their own money into, we thought..."

<signing off>

Cheers,

Chris

[Art]

We will call that the final note and consider this topic well and truly closed.

Art

Moderator