evaengineer Report post Posted June 24, 2013 Hello! So, this is my first post on leatherworker.net, and I have quite a few questions regarding leather weight, purchase inquiries, leather types, and copper rivets. But first, some background... My name is Caracal Keithrafferty, and I'm located right by Milwaukee, WI. I made my first large purchase of leather tools, dyes, and hardware late last summer. The tools I have are: Knives V-Gouge Awl Edge Beveler (Sz. 3) Parallel Stitch Groover 2 Overstitch Wheels (Sz. 5 + 6) Bone Folder Edge Slicker Wood Hammer (I was considering an epoxy or rubber hammer; can't afford a good rawhide one) 2 cutting mats Dyes and liquids (and related items) I have are: Wool Daubers EvoStik Time Bond Contact Adhesive (haven't used it; not really sure when, how, or where one would use it) Carnauba Creme Gum Tragacanth Tan-Kote Neatsfoot Oil (Never used it, not quite sure what it's for) Leather Sheen 8 different dyes Hardware (and related items) I have are: Lots of scrap leather from Hobby Lobby; mostly small pieces. A couple different hammering tools 2 small anvils (one is damaged) O-Rings D-Rings TIny buckles Various rivets *Note: To describe the rivets and other hardware further might be challenging. I know I have some snaps, and I can set those properly. I have many tiny eyelets (the ones that mushroom out; one piece). I have a couple of grommets (2 pieces, brass look to them), but I don't believe I have any of the necessary setting tools. I have some single cap rivets I believe, but they are missing the male end I believe. I used all my copper rivets; even with improper tools, I made use of them (and I plan to purchase many more in the future. Any suggestions on what I'd want?). Aside from those, I have some other ones I'll call mystery rivets... I've got some that are long tubes (7/16 inch or so) that are unthreaded on the inside. I'm not sure how they're used. I've got other ones that look like grommets, but are non-flowering like the eyelets, and have a short shaft. I don't know if they're part of something. There's another kind that seems similar in for to the snaps, but is missing a 4th piece. They are definitely different from the standard ones; one cap has a little piece of metal lifted up, another part has tiny holes and grooves on it, maybe implying that it's supposed to change shape when tooled. Another kind I have are only few in number, but they're flat-bottomed, have a moderate/small sized shaft, and have a tiny hole at the end of the shaft. Lastly, I've got some solid ones that I have no idea how to set. They have long shafts, end in a dome on one end, and about 2/3 of the way down from the dome have a disc solidly on the item. It may be related to a Sam Brown rivet, but I am unsure. I also have several split pins, but I don't know if they're related to leatherworking at all. Those are all the leatherworking related items I have at my disposal currently. I do not know how to sew leather, and I am not quite sure where to start. All the items I've seen sewn so far have been with very thin leather, and I hardly to never work with thin leather. Can anyone suggest some hand tools for me to use? I did some brief research and though about buying, but I have no idea where to start. I cannot afford machinery, but hand tools might work. I have dyed some leather a fair amount, and I've learned how to smooth edges and backs of leather well enough. So, as far as that goes, I have down the technique, just not the perfection. I can hammer rivets well, and I can cut leather just fine. But what I need now is information on leather weight, proper leather types, and other items needed for making basic armor for LARPing. I've got a friend who wants me to make him some armor. It doesn't need to protect much, and he's seeking form over function. I also want to sell at other LARPing conventions. More details on armor: My friend Geoff has commissioned me to make him a set of armor consisting of: pauldrons (shoulder armor) that go from arm-to-arm over the shoulders, covering the arms up to the elbows; greaves (shin armor) that go up to the knees, but don't cover them too much (I have this part mostly done, should I post photos?); sabatons (foot armor) that cover the instep of the foot, and covers the ankle bone on either side; and that largest part being the breastplate (front body armor), which only needs to cover the chest, the belly, part of the sides, the collarbone, and little to none of the lower back. He also told me that a long term project I could do with him would be a plumed helmet. Another one would be a Romanesque skirt. The overall look he's going for would be somewhat similar to a roman soldier with a mix of some medieval aspects. It does not need to be historically correct, just similar in its look. What I'm not worried about is making the whole project aesthetically pleasing. Geoff said he doesn't mind nicks and damages to the leather, as long as the overall product is good. It can be made of lots of straps and things on it without much worry. What matters is that it looks good, fits semi-comfortably, and is thick enough to protect against foam swords (they can actually hit fairly hard, should I get 7-8, 8-9, or 9-10 oz leather?) For reference, Geoff is a pretty big guy; he's about 6' 2" and weighs around 230 lbs. What I seek to learn: What I really need to know now is what kind of leather I should purchase. To cover the pauldrons, sabatons, and breastplate, I hope to spend less than $175 on leather. I'd like to purchase leather that's bleached or white so I can dye it easily to my liking. So, what suggested weight (oz) leather should I grab, what specific type of leather should I grab (rawhide?), and where should I get it? I have a Federal Tax ID #, so I can purchase from wholesale suppliers, but I don't know if I'd be purchasing enough for the venture to be worth it, or if I should just stick with eBay or wherever you guys suggest. I currently have only a catalog from Weaver (thoughts on the company?), and I'm curious where I should go from here. Overall list of questions: Important: What leather weight do I want for making pauldrons, sabatons, and a breastplate? What type of leather do I want for making pauldrons, sabatons, and a breastplate? What amount of leather would I want for making pauldrons, sabatons, and a breastplate? Where should I purchase my leather? What other leather related items should I purchase? Not as important, but still curious: Should I post pictures of my leather progress and various works? Should I post pictures of the mystery rivets? What tools should I get for copper rivets? When is leather adhesive used? When is stitching used in leatherwork? Is stitching the same as sewing (if not, when is sewing used in leatherwork?)? Any ideas on what the mystery rivets were? (Sorry if some questions seem like they can just be googled; I really prefer to ask people because it allows me to respond for clarification.) Thanks much for reading all this. If any parts need clarifying, please let me know! This is a large project for me, and I hope to learn a lot from it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silverwingit Report post Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) Better break this down, evaengineer. Too much to digest in one helping. You'll get better response if you ask specific questions. Edited June 24, 2013 by silverwingit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evaengineer Report post Posted June 24, 2013 Well, I guess what I'm mostly trying to learn are the answers these questions: What leather weight do I want for making pauldrons, sabatons, and a breastplate? What type of leather do I want for making pauldrons, sabatons, and a breastplate? What amount of leather would I want for making pauldrons, sabatons, and a breastplate? Where should I purchase my leather? What other leather related items should I purchase? I'm not sure if that's good enough, but any suggestions on what I should say to clarify would be appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evaengineer Report post Posted June 24, 2013 Any suggestions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Blea Report post Posted June 24, 2013 I've never made armor but if you are molding or carving this leather, you will need Veg Tan leather. I don't know how much leather you will need, but I would guess you will need more than a side of leather to cover this much area. Plus, you will probably need some extra leather to work out your process, bugs and techniques before you can make finished products. As far as a good source, Springfield Leather (a sponsor here) would be a good source to work with for any of your needs. Hope this helps, bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silverwingit Report post Posted June 24, 2013 OK, I'm not into armor, but...1) go to the Re-enactment forum and search. A very rich resource. 2) Good leather sources: Springfield Leather (forum sponsor), Zack White (forum sponsor) or if you have a tax ID, Weaver Leather. I think you want veg-tan leather (suggest either Hermann Oak or Wickett & Craig). 3) You'll need a better hammer or even better a maul (I suggest Barry King mauls, also a forum sponsor). 4) You will want a solid, weighty surface on which to do your pounding. Most use a marble slab or granite surface plate. 5) You didn't say what knives you have but if you get serious about leatherwork you will want a round or head knife (Suggest Weaver or CS Osborne). 6) You will be cutting a lot of leather so you will need to get some good sharpening equipment and to learn how to use it (suggest diamond stones, and make your own strop -- there's a Sticky note for that in the How do I do that? forum)). Hope that helps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evaengineer Report post Posted June 24, 2013 Thank you guys so much. I'll probably be doing some ordering from Weaver soon then, considering I already have the catalog. I'm excited! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwight Report post Posted June 24, 2013 The easy way is to find out what other folks used, . . . go to a "meet" where they are, . . . take a set of calipers with you, . . . ask some of the participants if you could measure the thickness of their armor. Leather is measured in ounces, . . . 1 ounce = 1/64th of an inch, . . . or .0156 inches. 4 oz = .0625 8 oz = .1250 etc. My armor for the Salvatorus Antonio, Centurion of Capernaum, of the 6th Legion of Rome is about 10 oz, . . . but is only used for costume, . . . no war games. Use vegetable tanned, . . . buy it from Tandy for the better price, . . . it is kind of a waste to use good leather on armor, . . . IMHO. When wetted, veggie tan can be molded just about any way you want to do it, within reason, . . . and armor looks good made from leather. May God bless, Dwight Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evaengineer Report post Posted June 24, 2013 Would it be against the rules to post this same topic in the Historical Reenactment forum too? I'm not sure on the status of double-posts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Blea Report post Posted June 24, 2013 I don't think the repost would be a problem, and I think they would be the best people here to talk to. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WinterBear Report post Posted June 24, 2013 You also might state what the owner will be doing with this armor so the people who frequent the forum can give you the best advice. For instance, I know that SCA has very specific requirements for the weights of leather used depending on the weapons that will be used (e.g., blunted blades vs. staves), and if it is not the correct weight, it will not be permitted. SCA armor may also be required to be hardened, and may require very robust hardware, attachments, and straps. Some LARP and reenactment groups also have specific requirements, while others have less stringent requirements. Then there is just pure costuming--some convention gear, most cosplay, and almost all masquerade costumes do not have restrictions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evaengineer Report post Posted June 25, 2013 Well, as far as requirements go, he can have any kind of leather. The chapter he's in is fairly lax in its rules (it's trying to recruit more casual people in), so as long as the leather is generally closer to 7 oz or more, he's in the clear. This is not requiring anything fancy really. I've seen people there dress in steampunk attire, and do many other non-traditional things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lividya Report post Posted June 25, 2013 I made a couple of armors and pauldrons myself. The main question here is what use will it be put to?If it needs to be combat ready, to be used with real blades, then go for armor leather (14 oz +). If it is for re enactment, and mostly just for show, then you can easily go for 8-9 oz. (This is what I use, mostly) it is a lot lighther, eaisier to cut, and way less expensive. It is heavy enough to give a convincing look but easier to work with. You can go with either veg tan lether, or not, depending on what shape and design you want to give it. If you want to Harden it and make it very hard, or if you want to mold it, that you need veg tan leather. But if you want to just cut it to fit someone and still be a bit supple, and maybe just rivet other pices of leather to it to make the design, then you can go for chrome or oïl tan. hope this was usefull for you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evaengineer Report post Posted June 25, 2013 Lividya, I'm thinking of probably going for 8-9 oz leather (Definitely saving me a ton of money). Geoff (guy I'm working for) said he's fine with any results really, as long as it's light enough to run around it. He'll be being whacked with foam swords, so I think he'll be okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lividya Report post Posted June 25, 2013 Definetly ok. I get wacked with foam sword all the time, and my armor is made with 8-9 oz leather. don't forget to show us the result! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
