I Guess If It Helps Sell Your Stuff...

[TXAG]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thebillfolder/the-billfolder?ref=live

"We have adopted our slogan "machine made by people with hands," because we think it is kind of funny when people tout hand cut and stitched leather as superior. We believe that a true craftsman and the right machine will always produce better quality and consistency."

Emphasis mine.

I happen to think hand-cut and hand-stitched items are superior to machine sewn, from what I've seen...but...I wonder how many people think the way those guys do...

I mean seriously...do most buyers just not care whether something is hand-stitched or not? Or is this just marketing propaganda to justify their use of machines to make these things?

[SteelcityK9Cop]

Code words for mass produced goods trying to look a little less mass produced.

[JLSleather]

Yeah, most don't know the difference, and some of the ones who know don't care. I'm with you .. saddle stitched is better where stress and strain is involved. If you're making flat goods - wallets, notebooks, etc - run 'em through the machine for the speed, whatever.

I actually saw one guys' 'marketing pitch' that machine sewed was better because the stitches are more even and consistent. HUH?

BUT, not all 'handmade' is better. I mean, if I need a belt, and have to choose between a beat-down, poorly cut, badly tooled, blotchy dye piece of crap somebody destroyed with their own hands, then give me the cheap crap from Walmart that I'll have to replace in a few months. The hand made crap is NOT worth more than the mass produced crap.

IF you can get a machine that does what the "handmade" does, faster and/or for less money, then do it. If you make hundreds of wallets (for example) then by all means get a die to cut them out. Makes sense. But the stichers you see around here are NOT makig the same thing as a saddle stitch.

[veedub3]

I mean seriously...do most buyers just not care whether something is hand-stitched or not?

I think it depends on the person and there experience. If they like it - they will buy it , and hand sewn vs machine sewn I think wouldn't even be a consideration if it's well made.

I have a Cole Haan leather vintage style postal/messenger bag I purchased at least 15 years ago that is machine stitched and still looks as awesome as the day I bought it. I am passing it on to my son when he goes off to College next year. I also have a Hermes clutch bag that is completely hand sewn by a master craftsman and is amazing. The wait time for this clutch was 7 months. Both are wonderful pieces, but were sewn using different methods. If the person knows what they are doing, I personally don't care which method is used. Well made is well made. (JMO)

Put two identical items in front of me - one hand sewn and the other machine stitched, and I will pick the one that is well crafted every time. Maybe it's the hand sewn item, maybe not. It all depends on the skill set of the person that made it.

Look at some of the wallets on Etsy that are hand sewn. The hand stitching on some of them is terrible and is unacceptable to me. Crooked stitch lines, huge stitch holes, wrong thread size, fraying thread. etc. Everyone that hand sews, don't have the same work ethic and don't strive for perfection, so to just say hand sewing is superior to machine sewing, I am going to have to say it depends on the craftsman. If every person that hand sews, sewed their items like Nigel or Hunio, It wouldn't be any question, but lets face it, it's a lot of people out their selling leather goods that needs a boat load of practice when it comes to hand sewing - just as there are a lot of people using machines that's cranking out crap. I look at quality first, then the price, everything else follows. (Again JMO)

Karrina

[TXAG]

Yeah, I guess I should've clarified that I meant items that were hand-sewn that are good quality...a piece of junk is a piece of junk.

It just seems to me that most craftsmen that take the time and effort to hand stitch (and are good at it) will take more care in other aspects of the build too...

Edited October 17, 2013 by TXAG

[sheathmaker]

I've been working leather, since 1951, everything from belts and key fobs to intricate saddles and everything in between. Some hand cut, some clicked, some hand sewn and now most machine stitched. I'll put my machine work up against anyone's hand work for durability, looks and overall quality. I believe from my personal experience that's there isn't 10 cents difference between the two......IF the person doing each discipline KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING. It's not the method, it's the expertise of the individual doing the method that makes the difference.

Anyone who has picked machine stitches from an old saddle skirt to put on new shearling can attest machine stitch holds just as well and just as long as hand saddle stitched.

As far as superior overall quality due to the hand worker taking more time or what ever.....well, that's just BS. I refer you back to my first paragraph. This goes back to work ethic and pride of accomplishment and protecting a good reputation.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Paul

Edited October 17, 2013 by sheathmaker

[dkbutcher]

I agree, crap is crap, but when they both look good I will always lean towards the hand made version. If someone goes to the effort of doing it by hand AND puts in the effort to do it really well... then that would suggest that they will probably do higher quality in other places (not always but I'm biased to thinking that way at least) . One of the main reasons I started working in leather in the first place (I've just started and am a babe in the woods) is because the "leather" goods that I might buy looked nice and looked perfect, but give it a month or two and the crappiness would show itself either in the leather, the construction, or both.

Dave

[Dwight]

My leather work for the most part is a product of my company motto:

Affordable Gunleather For Those Who Can’t Afford To Be Without Their Gunleather

I simply cannot afford to offer the gunleather I offer if I have to hand stitch the holsters and belts. Not that I do not occasionally do that, . . . but I only do it when it has to be done, . . . and is VERY infrequent.

My customers safety, . . . comfort, . . . and budget comes before something as esoteric as "hand made", . . "hand stitched", . . . etc.

That does not say that no one else should do it, . . . by all means if there is a niche market out there for hand stitched goods, . . . go for it.

May God bless,

Dwight

[dirtclod]

TXAG how many of your clothes are handmade / hand sewn. I'm guessing they were all made in a factory someplace where they used every piece of machine they could find to make them quicker to keep cost down so they could actually sell them to the general public.

I make a lot of stuff and i call it handmade because everything about it is done by hand except for the sewing and i tell them i sew on a machine. Now if people want to pay three / four of five times the price i'd hand sew it but in my world it's not going to happen. Their not going to pay 250.00 for something they can buy for 50.00 .

Looking at the billfold people they had somebody write a bunch of well worded writing that appeals to a lot of people. Like buying leather by the barrel. Now anybody that has bought any leather knows that's BS but most people don't know any better, they just think their buying something special. In other words a bunch of BS and people eat it up. If you read what they say the people

wanting the money aint going to anything but inspect the finished product.

IMO most of the people saying hand sewing is better just want a machine and haven't turned the money loose yet. I've seen a few people that can sew a real nice hand stitch but i have seen a whole more that look like crap ! On the other hand i have seen a lot of poor machine things to. The big thing is to take pride in what you make and do the best job you can and cut the junk pieces up.

Edited October 18, 2013 by dirtclod

[Tina]

I'll put my machine work up against anyone's hand work for durability, looks and overall quality.

IMO most of the people saying hand sewing is better just want a machine and haven't turned the money loose yet.

Timestrap...IMO, maybe people with a machine is just to lacy to handstich?

sheathmaker...just had to jump in here. The stiching, hand or machine will never be better than the quallity of the thread. Now with that said there's also the difference in how the stiches are made and here I'm just talking about the technique differences between them both, not someones individual skills in handsewing. A pictures says a thousen words :-)

[JLSleather]

TXAG how many of your clothes are handmade / hand sewn.....they used every piece of machine they could find to make them quicker to keep cost down so they could actually sell them ...

I make a lot of stuff and i call it handmade because everything about it is done by hand except for the sewing and i tell them i sew on a machine. Now if people want to pay three / four of five times the price i'd hand sew it but in my world it's not going to happen. Their not going to pay 250.00 for something they can buy for 50.00 .

Everybody saying the same thing, just different words. It MAKES ME MONEY. Machines are used for SPEED to be PRICE COMPETITIVE. Always somebody with a 'spin'.

Tina's pic is what I was talking about.. NOT the same thing.

[Tex Shooter]

Wow, opinions are like noses! Everybody has one! I hand stitch because I have the time and it is very therapeutic. I have noticed that when I put a little video of me hand stitching with ads that my sales doubled! I need to make a better one now. -- Tex

[dirtclod]

I hear people talk about the stitching breaking just like in Tina's picture. My answer is the same one i have had several times on here and it's ( how many necked people did you see at work or around town ? ) because somebody you seen today had broke stitches in their clothes . The way yall act is if a stitch breaks and it was sewed with a machine it's going unravel. NEWS FLASH it doesn't just unravel ! If you want to hand sew knock your self out you will never be able to make a living hand sewing unless like i said you get 4 to 5 times what you have to charge machine sewing. This is what i do for a living and have for done the last 30 years.

[Northmount]

The picture comparing lock-stitch with saddle stitch omits some reality. It is rare that only one stitch is abraded or cut. Usually several stitches are abraded, so the integrity of both threads is lost. Anybody do repairs on old tack and harness? If not, take the time to look at what happens to the surface stitching on well used and worn equipment. I realize most tack is machine sewn, but my point is the abrasion the tack and harness is subjected to.

I do appreciate the skill and time that saddle stitching takes. I also love the same appearance on both sides of a well done quality job. I'll use a machine where I can, and hand stitch where the machine can't reach. Though in many of those cases I would lace the project.

It all comes done to personal opinion and experience. Many customers have little experience. They just want the cheapest handmade item, some regardless of appearance. To them, the ratty look is a mark of pride in owning something handmade. They support the underdog.

Tom

Edited October 18, 2013 by northmount

[sheathmaker]

The picture comparing lock-stitch with saddle stitch omits some reality. It is rare that only one stitch is abraded or cut. Usually several stitches are abraded, so the integrity of both threads is lost. Anybody do repairs on old tack and harness? If not, take the time to look at what happens to the surface stitching on well used and worn equipment. I realize most tack is machine sewn, but my point is the abrasion the tack and harness is subjected to.

I do appreciate the skill and time that saddle stitching takes. I also love the same appearance on both sides of a well done quality job. I'll use a machine where I can, and hand stitch where the machine can't reach. Though in many of those cases I would lace the project.

It all comes done to personal opinion and experience. Many customers have little experience. They just want the cheapest handmade item, some regardless of appearance. To them, the ratty look is a mark of pride in owning something handmade. They support the underdog.

Tom

This post pretty well sums up my opinion. The picture does not take in reality of the situation. In theory it's right, in actual day to day fact it is not. Take the time to pull a stitch line done on a machine. It does not just unravel.

Paul

[Macca]

Can machines replicate the slanted, hand stitched look ? I see a lot of machine stitched articles with large stitch holes and straight stitching, like the wallet in the OP

just wondering if its possible to get the same look with a machine ?

to be fair, just because its hand stitched doesn't mean it looks good, I think a lot of hand stitched goods could do with much smaller stitches and thread, maybe its just a Euro taste thing..

[dirtclod]

It's not just a Euro thing. I travel around quite a bit selling my things. One guys web site said that everthing was hand sewn for strength and looks. When i got the event i was looking at what other people had for sale and seen his stuff. It was hand sewn but the stitches were a 1/2 inch long and it looked pretty durn rough. In my travels i see things like his 1/2 inch stitches quite a bit.

[Go2Tex]

If there was a machine to stitch cantle and horn bindings I'd get one. Well, if it looked as good as hand stitched, I'd surely get one. But, there are things that just can't be machine stitched and that's why I keep the ol' stitching horse around, mostly taking up space, but on occasion, it really comes in handy. And, it's also a good conversation piece.... and foot rest.

[Cyberthrasher]

All the hype aside, I want to know who all these backers are that don't know how to do the most basic research, like look up what a finished wallet should actually look like.

[Macca]

All the hype aside, I want to know who all these backers are that don't know how to do the most basic research, like look up what a finished wallet should actually look like.

Social network marketing at its finest.

[dirtclod]

All the hype aside, I want to know who all these backers are that don't know how to do the most basic research, like look up what a finished wallet should actually look like.

Like i said before either they did or they they found somebody that could write something all fancy and flowery that is a bunch of BS and people are eating it up. Their billfold is like a bunch of stuff that is really simply made and sold for a really high price. I had a guy come in my shop one day wanting his billfold sewn in a couple of places where it was starting to tear. I looked at it and told hime i couldn't help him out because the billfold was made of plastic. That really PHO and proceeded to tell me that it was a 400.00 some name i don't remember bilfold and that it wasn't made of plastic that it leather. Personally i think he didn't want admitt that he got took buying some big name designer junk.

[Cyberthrasher]

yeah, that's what I don't understand. All the BS in the world shouldn't obscure from what's obviously visible in the pictures - a POS wallet that might last a year before it looks even worse off then it does now. And, all that BS sounds like just that. Any logical person who's wanting to support a business venture should see through that crap. But, apparently logical people aren't the one's using kickstart.

[EquusCustomLeathers]

I have been looking around on Kickstarter lately, just to see what it's all about. It's incredible that some of these folks are managing to get thousands of dollars from people. I hear a lot of grumbling about the economy, but somebody out there obviously has money to throw away! Are the businesses held accountable for the money they receive, or is it just a free for all, and they don't have to show where backers' money went? It looks more like a roundabout way of selling items, and calling it "backing" to me..

[veedub3]

Are the businesses held accountable for the money they receive, or is it just a free for all, and they don't have to show where backers' money went?

Kickstarter policy says that ..."if a funded campaign is not able to fulfill the order for whatever reason, they are required to refund the backers money, then they go on to say....."Kickstarter is not liable for any damages or loss related to rewards, is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between parties, they do not oversee the delivery of goods, and that Kickstarter users release them from any damages, demands arising from disputes......"

Basically...I take this as use at your own risk. Once the campaign has been funded, Kickstarter will deduct their fees, then transfer the funds to the Company. If the company fails to deliver the goods, Kickstater has nothing in place to recoup backers funds, but relying on the company to act accordingly, and are pretty much saying "My name is Bennett and I ain't in it!"

Karina

[EquusCustomLeathers]

Wow! I was just curious, because I have been watching one shop in particular (not leather related) that seems to really be having trouble following through with what they are selling..They received funding as of March of last year, and still haven't provided the service they got $22,000 for! Backers tolerance amazes me LOL