Questions About Design And Balance...

[CAVE]

I am new to this and just finished my first for this ruger sr22. I am very happy with the results for a first, but have some questions. I get a little "bounce" from the gun on the belt if I walk fast or jog. I attribute this to the high carry (conceal style) holster. I assume that if I raise my belt slots on the holster body, dropping the gun a little on the belt, this will balance out the weight a little. Do you all have some advice about fitting holster style and balance to gun weight and shape? I realize there are probably an infinite number of combos. I'm just looking for some things to try. Can I get a rock solid hold/balance on the gun but keep the high carry of the conceal style pancake? This gun is pretty light, but I'm going to start one for my taurus pt24/7 next and want to make some improvements to make it ride just right.

Criticism encouraged beyond just the style or cut. I still haven't applied oil or finish, just dye. I'm working on some different burnishing methods too and then dye the edges again.

Edited November 10, 2013 by CAVE

[camano ridge]

First off I believe that the foundation for a good carry system is the belt. If you don't have a good belt that fits the holster well you will not have a good carry system. That can lead to some of the problems you described regardless of how good the holster is. The belt should be of heavy leather not belly. I do most of my belts double thickness equaling close to a quarte inch total thickness. I cut my belts from backs. Over all the design of you holster does not look to bad. Personal preference I would have brought the front of the holster up just a little and put a down ward curve or arc toward the trigger guard. The overall appearance of the holster would be greatly improved by burnishing your edges and the belt slots.

Edited November 10, 2013 by camano ridge

[CAVE]

Personal preference I would have brought the front of the holster up just a little and put a down ward curve or arc toward the trigger guard.

Is this an aesthetic change or a functional change? I would love to see a picture or photoshop version of your change. I don't quite understand the downward arc idea. Concave or convex?

Thank you for the comments.

This holster's belt loops were designed around a duty belt that I have. It seems to be sturdy, but maybe I will look into some other types. I really don't know the difference between a good one and a poor one.

Are there things I can do to the style to increase balance and stability other than a heavier belt?

I am working on burnishing still. I hope it will clean up my edges some. I had a hard time with my utility knife cutting the belt slots. I have limited tools, but was considering chucking up a dowel in the drill press for the belt slots..?

Edited November 10, 2013 by CAVE

[camano ridge]

Cave, here is a picture more or less depicting what I ma talking about. It is primarily form and not so much function although I believe it adds a little bit more stability. Again it is just my persaonal preferenc I am sharing with you not telling you it is the way you have to do it.

[Red Cent]

I agree with a strong belt. I make mine with a 8-9 outer and a 4-5 liner. If your holster twists the belt away from the body it will waggle back and forth and slap the body. And the belt should fit the slots. A secure handgun drawn quickly should not move the holster up and down.

[Dwight]

A strong belt is the first thing I would look at, . . . mine are 1 7/16 wide, . . . and anywhere between .180 and .250 thick, . . . depending on several factors I take into account in the belt process.

Secondly though, . . . will be a serious critique of the holster design. Quite frankly, I would consider it a bad, poorly thought out design.

Your holster should come up (on the top of the slide) to the front of the rear sight at least. For a VERY secure holster, . . . cover the rear sight also.

It should also come up almost to the grip, . . . covering the trigger guard. I realize that you are trying to stay clear of the mag release, . . . and that can be handily done with some interior work.

Personally, . . . I would not carry a pistol in a holster of that design. The center of gravity for the weapon is way too high, . . . it WILL flop back and forth, . . . and it will come out, . . . and if Murphy gets in there, it will come out when you least need it to do that.

Making that style for a full size all steel weapon would be in my opinion, and exercise in futility.

And the reason I feel confident in my opinion, . . . I envisioned a similar style holster some years back, . . . and after some wasted leather and effort, . . . I said to heck with it, . . . went back to what works.

May God bless,

Dwight

[CAVE]

Making that style for a full size all steel weapon would be in my opinion, and exercise in futility.

. . . and after some wasted leather and effort, . . . I said to heck with it, . . . went back to what works.

May God bless,

Dwight

Maybe I missed it, but what style works? Adding leather to the upper part of the slide wouldn't lower the center of gravity so I must assume you mean to lower the carry position? Or is it something with the pancake style? The extra leather is to keep the weapon more secure correct? So my design is flawed two fold. Not secure enough and too high of a carry right? When on the belt the gun is actually pretty tight in the holster. Should I expect it to loosen too much as it breaks in (without the extra leather)? I'm connecting the dots, but I can be slow sometimes.

I'm sorry for the ignorance, but I just went for it and this is what I came up with. Poorly thought out is very true. I didn't have any patterns or holster knowledge to go on so I just jumped in. I have searched this site quite a bit and have found great info on the process, but very little on the design of auto holsters (other than pictures). I'm appreciative of the help and comments. Keep them coming please.

[camano ridge]

Cave there is know ignorance you are folowing the path we all folowed trying out holster making and learning from are experience. I was trying to be gentle, Dwight was more to the point. I think Katsass will probably be offering you some sage advice as well. We are not hammering what you did only trying to help you improve it. More leather wrapped around the holster does give a more secure holster. There is nothing wrong with a high ride holster, however there is such thing as too high of a ride. The picture makes it look like the bottom of the belt slot is only about 1/2 to 3/4" higher then the muzzle that puts alot of gun above the belt loop. you said the holster fits tight however you also said you get bounce, that is probably because the gun rides too high. So yes bringing your belt slots up a little and extending the holster as Dwight pointed out should help stabilize the holster considerably and if you have a good foundation ie a good belt then you should end up just about rock solid.

Edited November 11, 2013 by camano ridge

[katsass]

Cave; just my $.02 worth. You have received a pot-load of good information from experienced leather workers here. I suspect that you are currently involved in some form of law enforcement. I also feel that you are attempting to design a holster to carry a specific handgun -- concealed. With those in mind, one thing to remember is that a 'duty' (garrison) belt, be it with basket weave or not, is a poor measure of quality for carrying a shooter, concealed or not. It IS suitable ONLY for holding up your trousers. Many in law enforcement feel that the garrison belt is great for off duty wear when carrying almost any handgun, it 'feels' heavier that your 'normal' belt. That may well come from the fact that it's generally 1 5/8" wide -- not the normal 1 1/2" belt. They also feel that the Sam Browne rig is optimal. Wrong on both counts IMO. The heaviest of Sam Browne belts I have seen or worn consists of about 9oz leather lined (sometime only partially) with about 3oz. stuff. My garrison style gunbelt is made from 14oz leather cut from the back - lined with 2/3oz and fully stitched. Any form of gunbelt is required to provide a solid platform from which to do your handgun work, and combined with a holster suitable for your specific needs. I'll not go into your holster design other than to say listen to what Dwight and camano ridge have stated. If I'm correct in suspecting that you are setting up a fully concealed rig, my initial advice is; DRESS TO CONCEAL -- to attempt to conceal a weapon while in what is your "normal" attire is generally a loosing proposition. Look around and see what attire 'fits' your area, in the current weather, and find clothes that allow you to conceal. Then -- practice. (I've popped a LOT of buttons and torn a number of shirts and jackets "practicing") A second consideration most folks look at is "printing". Printing is not as much a problem as most think it is. What IS a problem is that the true bad guy, one that has spent time in lockup (I'm not just talking 10 days in the county jail) are observers. They WILL notice the inadvertent movements that you do because YOU know that YOU are carrying. It's unconscious, and it takes a pot-load of time to get to the point that wearing a gun on the hip feels so natural that you don't realize that it's there, BUT, knowing it's there all the time. Kind of an oxymoron ain't it? Well, I'm off the soapbox that I sort of tripped over and climbed up on. You have started on a great craft, and as in all things, you learn constantly. We all do. Mike

Edited November 11, 2013 by katsass

[CAVE]

For the new belt loop postition, I'm leaning towards about 1/2-3/4" higher. Does this seem like enough?

From some reading, retention straps seem to be a personal preference. I like the idea of no strap/snap, but would like to hear more ideas. What happends to this style of holster over the long haul? Will it loosen up quite bit to where it may be needed?

I did all the forming on the front piece, and the back leather is just flat. It that ok? Is some forming of the rear piece important? It seems more comfortable flat than a friends that has some forming of the back piece.

Thanks for the advice, keep it coming. I am working on the finish details of this one and then I will start another. I think I will try another with this same gun and change the position a little. I think it will be helpful to compare once I make a few changes. This sr22 is just a gun I will carry around for fun when out exploring the woods or hiking. Just a fun shooter to pack around for entertainment. I am just hoping to learn some things about the design before working on a conceal gun. I'm am new not only to holster making, but also to gun carry. I don't have a lot of experience to even know what to ask (hence the ignorance statement).

I probably won't be building a belt any time soon, but I am looking into some before the next holster build.

I have thick skin so I prefer blunt and to the point like Dwight. I'm just trying to fully understand the advice I'm recieving and maybe need the dumbed-down solution to go with the problem. The changes I feel are needed are somewhat intuitive, but I'm hoping I can bypass some trial and error by getting some answers here. Bring it on. If I thought it was perfect I wouldn't ask.

Edited November 11, 2013 by CAVE

[camano ridge]

Cave, I think you are on the right track now. Get some manila file folders many people use them for drawing patterns. I also use them to make file folder versions of my holsters. Instead of stitches I use a stpler on the file folder cutout to seal my seams I then put the gun in the paper holster. You can make a couple of versions with the belt slots in different locations. You will actually get a feel for the balance of the holster and be able to make adjustments. There are peolple that frequent this forum that only do flat back holsters, there is nothing wrong with that. Which ever way you do it the importatnt thing is a tight stitch line. If properly molded (does not have to be extreme detail molding to be properly molded) and a good tight stitch line you should not have a problem with your holster loosening up.

I know you said you were working on burnishing the edges. You may have already figured this out after the first one. Burnish the edges of the holster mouth and toe before assembling then once it is stitched burnish the main seams.

As to the belt one cheaper and easier way to try out a good belt is Old Faithful Holsters. They have a belt kit double stitched (stitching already done) comes with hardware including a roller belt buckle. You dye it and put on the hardware. cost is about 39.00 for the kit. If you go to Tandy a single layer belt strip without nuckle is almost 20.00.

[CAVE]

You can make a couple of versions with the belt slots in different locations. You will actually get a feel for the balance of the holster and be able to make adjustments...

Burnish the edges of the holster mouth and toe before assembling then once it is stitched burnish the main seams...

Old Faithful Holsters... cost is about 39.00 for the kit...

Awesome, thanks so much. I don't know why I didn't think of the mock up cardboard holster idea. I like this!

Burnishing, yep, I forgot that step and had a heck of a time burnishing those spots.

Keep it coming if anyone has some good info for me. I'm still reading and searching, but this is really helping.

[Dwight]

For the new belt loop postition, I'm leaning towards about 1/2-3/4" higher. Does this seem like enough?

The ideal placement for maximum stability is low, . . . just enough opening between the belt top and the grip front to get your fingers to get a really good hold onto the grip of the weapon. And when you cut your belt slots, . . . do not be generous. They need to fit the belt with no real sloppiness, . . . loosen enough to slide on, . . . but tight enough not to move afterwards.

From some reading, retention straps seem to be a personal preference. I like the idea of no strap/snap, but would like to hear more ideas. What happends to this style of holster over the long haul? Will it loosen up quite bit to where it may be needed?

I counsel against retention if it is an IWB, . . . belt and body pressure should make it so it won't cough up and out, . . . along with proper molding.

For a pancake, . . . sometimes (some LEO depts mandate them) they are needed, . . . if I put one on, . . . 99% of them are thumb breaks.

I did all the forming on the front piece, and the back leather is just flat. It that ok? Is some forming of the rear piece important? It seems more comfortable flat than a friends that has some forming of the back piece.

A pancake properly molded will not be uncomfortable when worn as an OWB, . . . all my IWB pancakes and the vast majority of my other IWB holsters have a flat back as a comfort aid.

I probably won't be building a belt any time soon, but I am looking into some before the next holster build.

Not having a proper belt, . . . it's like trying to figure out what these new style tires will look like on my car, . . . without first having rims to fit them. Take a time out and build a basic belt, . . . glue two 7 oz pieces together, . . . punch some holes, . . . put on a buckle, . . . dye and finish it, . . . even if you don't sew it (following katsass directions for proper Weldwood application) you'll have something that will give you a real good idea of where you really need to go with the holster.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited November 12, 2013 by Dwight

[camano ridge]

Cave here are a couple of examples of my mock holsters and the finished product. It helps me especially when I am making my own pattern for a hoster style I have not made before. Almost always the final holster comes out a little diferent then the mock up because I find things to adjust and refine. It only take about a half hour to build a mock up and can save hours on a holster you may end up throwing in the scrap box.

[camano ridge]

Cave here are a couple of examples of my mock holsters and the finished product. It helps me especially when I am making my own pattern for a hoster style I have not made before. Almost always the final holster comes out a little diferent then the mock up because I find things to adjust and refine. making a mock up helps me adjust belt slots, fit, overall appearance before I make those mistakes in leather. I keep a pice of belt strap around that I can slide through the belt slots to give me an idea of fit and cant. It only take about a half hour to build a mock up and can save hours on a holster you may end up throwing in the scrap box.

Edited November 12, 2013 by camano ridge

[bugboy449]

Cave, I'm new at this also and what I do sometimes is draw my belt on the pattern paper and then mess with the gun to find the center of gravity of the gun. I like the balance point of the gun to be somewhere on the belt line. It can be at the top of the belt line but I usually shoot for the middle.

[Red Cent]

I would suggest the belt never goes below the trigger guard's lowest horizontal line.

[Jumpout]

I agree with Red Cent. The rear slot on your holster is too low. Find the balance point of the pistol you are working with. It will be different without the loaded magazine in the gun. Be extremely cautious and ensure there is not a round in the chamber then find your balance. Because you have that extra weight in the grip of the pistol when you put the belt loop as low as you did on that holster, probably 80% of the weight of the gun is above the belt line and it will definitely flop. Like Kat said, the holster can only do so much for concealed carry with the primary goal being a secure rig and fast access to the weapon when needed. You have to dress around your method of carry.

[malabar]

You can certainly make high-ride holsters -- most of mine ride a good 3/4-1-inch higher than the average pancake -- but you must design the holster so that t has the structural strength to ride up there without "bouncing." For example, the back on my high-ride pancake holster is laminated out of two layers of (fairly thick) leather. That gives the holster the stiffness it needs to ride high, like this...

http://www.malabargunleather.com/holsters/high-ride

BTW: It sure looks like you have a lot of forward cant on the pistol. That's kind of counterproductive for the vertical draw technique that is taught at most places today.

tk

[CAVE]

Again thank you for the comments. I did some balance testing with a few guns. 40 cal bullets obviously made a much bigger difference than the 22, but having the clip in and full did change it up for both guns. High cap mags vs standard were surprisingly much different too. I am really enjoying this process and all the practical advice is helping a lot. I hope to start the improved sr22 holster in the next few days. Hopefully I can also improve on the craftsmanship a little.

Is there a relation to belt position (vertically) and ease of drawing the weapon? I don't mean me being able to reach, grip, and draw. I mean how the belt acts on the holster and how the holster acts on the gun. How does the leather surrounding the gun stretch, collapse, or move during drawing the weapon and can this be affected by belt position or cant? Does leather thickness play a big role in this? Is this even something you can explain over the internet without trail and error?

[CAVE]

You can certainly make high-ride holsters -- most of mine ride a good 3/4-1-inch higher than the average pancake -- but you must design the holster so that t has the structural strength to ride up there without "bouncing." For example, the back on my high-ride pancake holster is laminated out of two layers of (fairly thick) leather. That gives the holster the stiffness it needs to ride high, like this...

http://www.malabargu...sters/high-ride

BTW: It sure looks like you have a lot of forward cant on the pistol. That's kind of counterproductive for the vertical draw technique that is taught at most places today.

tk

This is somewhat encouraging. I was intending this holster to be "high ride" with my initial design. I didn't know what I wanted or anything, but I looked at a lot of pictures...after this thread I compared mine to even more pictures (even drawing lines across other designs for belt position) and didn't see a huge difference to what seemed like a very popular holster design. What was so different about all these high rides that seemed sometimes even more off balance than mine? I think now I am understanding some of the differences and trade offs better. What I really want (now that I've practiced a little) is a better balanced and comfortable carry. This may be somewhat routine for some of you guys, but being new I feel like this is great and very useable information that I didn't have.

As to cant, I have more to learn. This position came from mock drawing and reholstering with an effort to find comfort.

Edited November 13, 2013 by CAVE

[malabar]

Cave,

Fundamentally, holsters are very simple items -- just a couple of pieces of leather folded and sewn together. But as you suggest, the difference between a great holster and a crappy holster can often be in details that are hard for the uninitiated to discern. There aren't necessarily pat answer to some of the questions you're asking. Understanding how those elements work together is part of your development as a holstermaker.

There are a a lot of elements that go into the making of a first-rate concealment holster. As a firearms instructor, one of my gripes is that students often train one way (1911 in a 3-oclock, strong side presentation, drop-holster), and carry an entirely different way (Ruger LC9 in a behind-the-hip IWB). This is really counter productive, because all the skills and muscle-memory they build up runs counter to their daily practice.

A good concealment holster should be designed from the very start for a particular type of presentation and a particular location on the belt. Many can be moved around, but they are generally ideal in only a limited range of locations.

The FBI was the group most responsible for requiring significant cant in a holstered pistol, thinking that the cant made it faster to bring the gun onto target. This is pretty much an outmoded concept today. The growth of action shooting sports and tactical police teams has led widespread acceptance of a vertical draw and punch-out technique. If you can get a copy of the NRA's guide to Personal Protection in the Home, it's really well-explained there.

Leather thickness plays a major role in how the holster works, but even more so, the "tempering" of the leather is critical. There are folks who sell sell leather holsters that are hardened like kydex, and folks who sell holsters that are as soft as limp noodles. Most are somewhere in between -- but the hardness of the holster is a critical part of the overall design.

A high ride on the belt is chiefly a feature of concealment holsters -- it brings the pistol into the hollow of the body. This also aids with retention.

This is my take on the elements of a good holster...

http://www.malabargunleather.com/which-holster

Other might have different ideas, but I've seen several of the oldtimers around here espouse similar ideas.

tk

Again thank you for the comments. I did some balance testing with a few guns. 40 cal bullets obviously made a much bigger difference than the 22, but having the clip in and full did change it up for both guns. High cap mags vs standard were surprisingly much different too. I am really enjoying this process and all the practical advice is helping a lot. I hope to start the improved sr22 holster in the next few days. Hopefully I can also improve on the craftsmanship a little.

Is there a relation to belt position (vertically) and ease of drawing the weapon? I don't mean me being able to reach, grip, and draw. I mean how the belt acts on the holster and how the holster acts on the gun. How does the leather surrounding the gun stretch, collapse, or move during drawing the weapon and can this be affected by belt position or cant? Does leather thickness play a big role in this? Is this even something you can explain over the internet without trail and error?

[CAVE]

I am still practicing. This one is the first version for my pt24/7 in 40cal. I am actually thrilled with it for what it is. I'm sure there are some things I can improve on which is why I'm posting it here for critique. The stitching and finish could be much better so I continue to practice. I am pretty happy with the balance, but it isn't perfect.

I really would like to move the gun down on the belt another 1/4"-3/8". As it sits, my small hands can fit to grip the gun fine, but I don't have much room to play with if I want to move the belt location. Are there any designs or ideas that can do this without adding more cant to the holster?

Also, a question on sight channels. You can see I have a molded channel that is tapered on the front half of the gun. I have seen a few designs where this is molded all the way to the rear of the gun (top of the holster). Are there any benefits of problems with one design or the other? My half length seems to work fine, but I don't have anything to compare to.

I used a stiffer leather on this one too, and am much happier with the end product. So far I have just been using leather I got from a retired leather worker. I haven't ordered any of my own so that is the next step (I'm almost out of practice leather). I have been reading some threads on choosing leather, but I would love to hear some further opinions on weight and cuts to order. Thanks for the critiques.

Edited November 25, 2013 by CAVE

[chiefjason]

I run the top of the belt at about the rear of the ejection port. About everyone that has one likes the way it rides, from an LC9 to a full size 1911.

I do a full length sight channel on most. Pros, no drag on front sight. Cons, if you don't roll over the slide the gun can get looser.

And be sure you are leaving the mag release uncovered. Can't tell from here, other than the front is over what would be an ambi release. I try to leave it open on the front and back.

[camano ridge]

Cave, that is an improvement over the first one pictured in this post. I can't tell is there a stitch line right above the slide? As chiefjason said you might want to cut away a little leather right behind the trigger guard to uncover the mag release. If you don't depending on the gun there is a chance that in holstering the weapon you could hit the mag release against the holster. Nothing more embarassing then pulling out your pistol and having the mag hit the floor at your feet. Keep working on it, with each one you will see an improvement and as you learn the basics you will become your own worse critic and continue to find things to improve.