Buying Keestar Sewing Machine 441 Directly From China..

[korokan]

You didn't understand. You still will need a broker and file customs forms regardless of the duty. Find out what those charges are. You WILL pay fees to the customs and fees to the broker but no duty.

Cya!

Bob

Yes . I will do that tomorrow. Thanks for pointing this thing out..

[korokan]

Yes . I will do that tomorrow. Thanks for pointing this thing out..

UPS custom Brokerage fees imports

will have to inquire the exact fee

Edited July 9, 2014 by korokan

[BDAZ]

My other company exports 5-6 shipments a month from Europe. We have a speial deal on fees but if UPS screws up they can bill as much as $150 on a $200 duty free item.

Cya!

Bob

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

There is no warranty on an imported machine.

The importer owns the warranty and you will be the importer.

You will also have to manufacture your own linkages for the motor and presser foot lift.

The table supplied at that price is very basic.

You will still need a roller guide and additional feet.

It takes a day to check everything out and set it up properly so if a mechanic is going to visit your home - and he needs to know how to set up an imported 441 - then you will be paying hundreds.

[oldtimer]

I bought a no name JUKI 441 clone from a Chinese company, built a machine from chinese parts, i e motor , speed reducer and all. IIt was perfectly functioning from day one, no extra set ups needed, I have used it in my saddlery for more than a year, and I get a smile on my face every time I use it!

[DrmCa]

FWIW, I recently bought a plasma cutter directly from China. It works fine and cuts well without wasting too much consumables, but the power switch stopped working after 2 or 3 uses. It simply does not want to stay off. Guess that is how they are expected to work under the communist regime. Ended up pulling the plug from the wall to turn it off.

But the ebay seller was nice and shipped me 2 or 3 spare power buttons free of charge when I contacted them.

Having said that, buying directly from China is a hit and miss game. Once a few years back I bought some overstock notions from a company in Ningbo and it was good quality. But similarly looking stuff at the local fabric and notion suppliers may be utter crap. Also had to throw away some computer hardware that simply did not work as expected or was outright DOA.

[mikesc]

The Chinese ( like any industrials who make OEM ) build to the "price point" that the companies that buy from them negotiate and then set..

They can and do build very high quality..if the buyer is very good at negotiating and willing to pay for quality build..iphones and the top end Samsungs and nearly everything electronic that you have( including whatever device you are using to post and read here ) are probably made in China..

If the most common use of a particular sewing machine that they make is not for sewing leather, then they are not going to set up a special production run for just one machine to sew leather, but they will set up a side run for someone ( like the dealers here ) who are buying tens or hundreds per month..and even then "getting the machines right" will take a few trips to China to iron out little things, and some tweaking when they arrive to whoever the importing dealer is..plus only the dealers keep the spares on hand, and their contacts at the manufacturer are the ones who speak and read and write and understand English..The dealers also do all the customs stuff..goods are shipped according to what customs agents call "points" each item is a "point"..

An example from garment importing ( applies to any importing of any objects or goods , from anywhere, to anywhere )..


Let's say I want a manufacturer in China to make me some women's jackets..as long as the style is identical for each, and as long as the material is identical for each, then whether I buy 1 or 100 or 1000..the agent charges me for "1 point" ..at ( X dollars ) to clear jackets through customs..so let us say I pay $150.oo per "point"..I bring in one jacket, I pay $150.oo ( plus whatever duties or taxes there may be on one jacket , depends on the materials, condition etc etc etc )..If I bring in 100 jackets ( all the same, apart from their sizes ), I'll still pay the customs agent $150.oo plus 100 x whatever duties or taxes there may be on one jacket..and if it is 1000 jackets, then I pay the customs agent $150.oo ( plus 1000 times whatever duties or taxes there may be for 1 jacket )..and if I'm bringing in 100 or a 1000 jackets, I'll also be bringing in plenty of spare buttons and zips etc that are used in them so as to have the ability to replace and repair ( or give to my "final customers" in the pockets ) ..Now..if I also want them to take something that they already make, say a jacket, but change it to my specifications ( say make the sleeves 3/4 length and use a contrast lining, and widen the lapels , and make 50 in denim and 50 in metallic silver finished lambskin )..the I'll have "2 points" ( one applies to denim jackets, and one applies to lambskin leather jackets )..so for 100 jackets shipped, I'll now have to pay the customs agent 2 x $150.oo ( plus whatever duties or taxes there may be on one jacket, and the duties and taxes will not be the same for denim as for lambskin )..the more your items differ, the more complex and expensive it can get..

It is quite possible, even probable that sewing machines for textile are considered by customs as different from those for leather , and thus attract different rates of taxes and duties upon import..It is late here now , so I'm not going to look it up..but as a "f'rinstance"..women's denim jeans do not attract the same taxes and duties as men's denim jeans ( women's denim jeans are considered to be a "fashion item" and men's denim jeans are "work clothes" ..men's motorcycle leather pants do not attract the same duties and taxes as women's leather motorcycle pants..and then there is / are "gloves"..and and and....

The dealers here will know what I mean..their "markup" is not just "profit for box shifting"..it is for what they know, the sweat and the late nights and travel and phone calls and visits etc etc ( and orders that the "manufacturer" got wrong on the way to getting it right ) , their "backup" stock of spares, and all the other overheads..

Their headaches as importers, dealers, manufacturers, are what gives you your peace of mind..

[BDAZ]

Another issue is that there is a range of QC available from the Chinese. Who is going to get the best quality machines, a foreign importer buying hundreds or even thousands of machines a year or Joe Bloggs buying one. If there's one that is dubious, guess who get it!!

My experience with Toledo is that they earned every penny of the markup. I had the bearing on the speed reducer fail on a new machine and I had a replacement days later at no cost and very little down time. If you live in BFE (If you don't know what BFE is or have never been there..congrats!), then a direct import may be your only option. 

My attitude is that I am in the leather products business, not the sewing machine set up business and it costs me money if my machine isn't performing.

 

Bob

Edited April 14, 2016 by BDAZ

[dikman]

I too bought a plasma cutter some time ago. There are many for sale on ebay, locally and direct from China. I ended up buying one from a company in another state, turns out the owner went to the trouble of finding a factory in China who could build to his specs and had excellent QC. He regularly visits to follow up production. I found that the power cord was too short for my needs (I suggested to the seller that they consider making them longer) so opened it up to change the cord. I was pleasantly surprised at the build quality, it was very well put together. As Mike SC said, they can make excellent gear.

[DrmCa]

We both probably bought the same machine CUT50? Mine too has a short cable. I was able to replace it with a cable from a donor microwave oven.

[kwalk20]

This is an interesting thread. I learned a lot. I had no clue of all the complexities that are involved. I'm so glad I went with reputable dealers for my industrials. My Seiko compound flatbed from Campbell-Randall, and awaiting my Cowboy 3200 from Bob @ Toledo. 

[Darren Brosowski]

Just to clarify....

My earlier post was not to have a go at Keestar as I have done plenty of business with them and they have proved to be very reliable. The machines are generally well set up from the factory and they are very professional. My issue is that importing your own machine is fraught with pitfalls and is not overall cheaper than buying a machine from a local dealer. 

By Chinese standards the 441 is a very low volume machine and there are not multiple factories making the parts and assembling the machines. The difference is the expertise and support of your local dealer.

 

 

[brmax]

Well said Darren, I find in these past years since 90 the information we have on pc in front of us if wanted can be a great boost with projects. Myself an old professional in the mechanic repair field needs to use the auxiliary gears many times, meaning the option of another professionals training and advantages. Again I kindly say to the young ones ( experience matters ) 

Good day

Floyd

[RusticLeatherShop]

Hi,

Yeah I just ran over an Webpage which offered copies of the Juki 441 as well. See here: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/441-single-lockstitch-cylinder-bed-extremely_60479210003.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.14.200e9bd9EtEXwW

This is the JL-441 model from Juki (copy) while the Cowboy 4500 are a copy of the Juki TSC 441. I have seen on alibaba.de (german. I seems not to appear in their english webpage for some reason) as well and Toledo branded Cowboy (eighter 3500 or 4500) for a Little over 1500 US$.

The JL 441 copy above is around 1200 US$. It doesnt specify if it's only the machine or if it Comes with Motor, tables and what not else. It's most likely the machine )head) ONLY and other mentions of Motor voltage is probably the Setup the machine is INTENDED FOR. Very tricky.

Shipping from China may surpass the final US pricing as some members very correctly have mentioned here.

Well I got my CB4500 with Speed reducer and Motor + accesoires for 1970 US$ + the obicuous shipping.

Most likely there are 100's of sewing machine factories in Shenzhen China alone and all are willing to fabricate you same Quality an CB 4500. Put your Name on the machine, and "off ya go with your own brand of TSC 441 machine" very same Quality as Toledos or other US representatives machines.

But like Smartphones ordered directly from alibaba, you are screwed if it doesnt work. No warranty from China, and they expect you to send the machine in to China for repairs. Shipping costs which can be as high as often the machines Price alone (700 US$ maybe, + 700 $ shipping back for a whooping 1400$ shipping). You must be on the factories gates personally to receive and inspect the machine - otherwise that could be a very sorrow buy.

Warranty is mandatory for These things which you will NOT get by buying directly from China.

[RusticLeatherShop]

On ‎07‎.‎07‎.‎2014 at 5:02 AM, korokan said:

Thanks guys for all your valuable and honest opinions. I did not even think that a 441 has to be adjusted to sew leather or other materials. I always thought that since it is a 441 , it will automatically sew harness since I presumed they are built to do so. It never occur to my mind that you will have to adjust the timing of this machine to sew your harness leather. I will have to be a mechanical engineer to understand those technicalities which I am not.

Yes, if you have to time the machine yourself, then that can become problematic. I would not trust myself to do that from scratch. Since you can not open the machines Body to look at the innards to learn by seeing how it works and has to be adjusted. If it is not pre threaded some people are lost eve with that.

You could as well play russian roulette with an alibaba.com China ordered Revolver which may or may not turn even the cylinder lest to speak about being timed correctly!

[BDAZ]

Years ago you could fly to Germany and pick up a Mercedes, drive it around Europe on a vacation and ship it home. The car would arrive as a used vehicle and not subject to the duties that have recently been reimposed by our fearless leader. My dad did this every few years and used the car for business in Europe, brought it back and then sold it at a profit a couple of years later, and then bought another. Many of the European luxury car manufacturers offered a complete package.

I started doing business  in Shenzhen in the 80s. Senzhen is a pretty interesting place to visit. If you had the inclination to visit China, you could probably purchase your machine at the factory and make sure it was set up and working properly and you would probably get  a tour of the factory and be treated to a nice meal. In addition you could write off the trip as a business expense.There is a cultural theme park there, definitely worth a visit and you would offset your expenses a bit by saving a few bucks on your machine.

I would NOT purchase it sight unseen unless you are looking for a huge paperweight.

Bob

Edited September 30, 2018 by BDAZ

[RusticLeatherShop]

BDAZ,

Thats about a as a realistic answer as it can get. Nothing beats first Hand info and real life info.

I get my Infos mostly from serpentZA Youtube Videos who is residing for 10 years in Shenzhen or Ghuangdhon China and learned a lot. Similar to Latinamerica in many ways. The mentality to rip off the foreigner seems to be the same in Latinamerica as in China (you better receive and inspect personally the item since it can be DOA when they suspect nobody is checking it).

There are many Smartphone companies who importet smrtphones directly from China to Europe. Looks like a good percentage of those electronics are faulty and lots of the remaining are starting to fail with components a few months after purchase. Dead On Arrival is common.

For sewing machines, it's maybe harder to screw up the manufacturing since it's steel and cast iron, but still common faults can be

stripped threads,

screws who shear off their heads on Arrival (I have had this with my brandnew CB4500 and Hightex USA took care of me but they had the tendency to suggest as well to look for them on local hardstores which was a Little strange to me),

missaligned optical eye on the Motor (which I have had as well and Hightex took care of me with instructions so I myself adjusted the optical eye as such as the machine does now stop precisely "when taking the foot off the gas pedal"),

there can be cracked or split cast iron parts (which will be affecting the machines Operation),

badly made threads on the cast iron (Which afterwards is allmost not to fix by the endconsumer himself),

low Quality bearings,

bearings who fail after some use due to Shoddy Quality workmanship (this is a Mayor part which can fail which renders the machine useless). I would not dare to hammer out an faulty bearing from an cast iron machine (hits will most likely split the cast iron) so the bearing better never fail. Thats why the CB4500 IMHO does only use 1 or 2 needle bearings and the rest is an steel ring where a steel rod Comes through which turns inside the ring which has to be oiled allways to reduce friction thus wear and tear.

[BDAZ]

What you have to remember is that you are dealing with a communist country where state controlled production was all about quantity, not quality. It has always been a sellers market, never enough consumer goods to meet demand and no profit motive. Generally they took their costs and added a small fixed percentage for "profit" and that was it.

Things are changing but some of the more industrial products are a victim of their history. If you manage the Chinese , especially QC by having a US or other foreign representative in the factory, thing go quite well. Also they will always sell the best production domestically as there is less blow back from faulty products.

It is changing and the better they get the more business they will attract.

Bob

[RusticLeatherShop]

3 minutes ago, BDAZ said:

and no profit motive. Generally they took their costs and added a small fixed percentage for "profit" and that was it.

Well I guess those small profits translate to luckily for the american consumer, but bad for the american industry as "our great leader" already has realised. I guess it's a good move Trump makes to stop production in China and produce those items in the USA, but he should not Forget to bring down the margins as well. If the Profit margins in the USA fall lets say from 12$ labour costs per hour to 1.8$ labour costs /h like in Latinamerica, then very well These clones can be made in the USA for about 1500$ as well. People really dont Need to earn that much since they "throw the Money out of the window for luxury goods anyways". Like if the iPhone costs Apple 385$ to produce the US governement should apply a haircut to pricing for an end consumer Price of no more that 550 US$. Locally (Southamerica) the governement has applyed a haircut to the Banks for top interest rates charges for credit Cards. The cry of the banksters was great but now things have improved showing up more an more prepaid credit Cards and debt Levels of people has fallen drastically. Banks said they will not "be able" to offer more credit Cards, but lo and behold the prepaid credit Card showed up allowing for me as well to have one. So not all socialist regulatory measures are bad. Somehow the greedyness has to be limited.

Lover the labour costs as well living costs within the USA, and then bring back all industries from China by taxing heavily all imports. Then things got straighten out again. That means an Juki TSC 441 clone has to be offered for about 1500 US$ (head + all accesoires) + Motor + reducer and table and very well the whole set will be availlable for below 2000 US$ but made in an Quality way from american workers.

[RusticLeatherShop]

20 minutes ago, BDAZ said:

It is changing and the better they get the more business they will attract.

IMHO not really. If they go past a Limit (they are on right now), the labour costs are just to expensive and business will leave.

If labour costs would rise in China costing now the CB4500 near 3000 US$, I would have not bought one. Simple as that. One can make a great Quality product but if the Price is skyhigh, no customers will buy it. Look at Sony Laptops made in Japan. What today is made in Germany or Japan? Nothing really, because of high pricing despite the high Quality.

[BDAZ]

2 hours ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

 

Lover the labour costs as well living costs within the USA, and then bring back all industries from China by taxing heavily all imports. Then things got straighten out again. That means an Juki TSC 441 clone has to be offered for about 1500 US$ (head + all accesoires) + Motor + reducer and table and very well the whole set will be availlable for below 2000 US$ but made in an Quality way from american workers.

I was really referring to the China of the 80s. Things have changed in many industries and are becoming more profit oriented with better QC. Garment and shoe production has already strated leaving China for cheaper countries like Vietnam and Cambodia.

 Unfortunately Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand that we now live in a global economy and his tariffs have already generated $12B in welfare for farmers after he trashed the soy export market and well on his way to trashing the US automotive, and many other export sensitive industries that will get hammered by reciprocating tariffs. Trump is focused on the next election, the Chinese on the next Generation!  Who do you think will come out on top?

 

Bob

Edited September 30, 2018 by BDAZ

[CowboyBob]

One more fly in the ointment,starting 9/24/18 there's a 10% tariff  on many goods from China & sewing machines & thread are on the list & it will be going up to 25% after 1/1/19.

[RusticLeatherShop]

1 hour ago, CowboyBob said:

One more fly in the ointment,starting 9/24/18 there's a 10% tariff  on many goods from China & sewing machines & thread are on the list & it will be going up to 25% after 1/1/19.

I buy thread at Amazon.com and most likely that Comes from China as well? So in the next few months I have to order some more to avoid high pricing. Just make the stuff for cheap in the US and you are on the right path. BTW, the latin Country I live in has put an 10% of Tax as well on ALL Amazon imports (even buying theoretically in the US, they Charge ALL items). But still better than the rip off mentality of local Shops (since international online Shopping is possible here, Prices have dropped considerably up to sometimes 500%. Example: local gunshops Charge about 300 to 400% more for gun imports from the USA, while some US-and here registred FFL Dealers Charge only 100% more of the US Price all included).

[RusticLeatherShop]

1 hour ago, BDAZ said:

Unfortunately Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand that we now live in a global economy and his tariffs have already generated $12B in welfare for farmers after he trashed the soy export market and well on his way to trashing the US automotive, and many other export sensitive industries that will get hammered by reciprocating tariffs. Trump is focused on the next election, the Chinese on the next Generation!  Who do you think will come out on top?

Global economy is a good Thing for the exporter, but an bad Thing for the importer. Where do you think Comes the whole US dept from? Because the US is a net IMPORTER while China is making the stuff the US made before.

It takes a thief to deal with another thief! Trumps University scandal and his croocked business models (Kind of rip off housing construction, charging high rents to poor americans, his granddaddy was a Pimp, etc) makes him the correct man to look through the comunists thieving scheemes and rip off trade models. Something has to be done to produce things again in the US instead abroad. For that wages have to come down drastically in the US in order to produce again within the Country. Same Thing in Germany. Buy an CB4500 in Germany: they cost there 3495 Euros that is about 4000+ US$. Insane! I told them thats a rip off but they claimed they have in Germany more stringent "Quality laws" which makes them of "higher Quality". Whatever Gimmick and excuse serves to jack the Prices up. So pricing is very much an reflection of the greedyness and Money addict of Dealers and the whole Society as well as cost of living. Bring down the wagens about 1000% as well as cost of living 1500% and every Country produces again things for their own economy.

300 Million consumers is much enough for US automobile industry. Satisfy the local market and do it the comunist way to shut slow down the factory till old cars have to be changed for new ones and turn the machines back on to full power. Meanwhile fix an Minimum income for EVERYBODY regardless they work or not. The whole US depth is a direct result from Globalism (global economy). BTW I am an Economist and lawyer. Chinese have retaliated already during 30 years by now.

Satisfy your own market, and if the Basics are covered like food, housing, education, security, car (tractor, truck) and work then your Basic Needs are covered. The rest is greedyness and tends to inflate the wages. That road the comunists went. We should learn some things from them but not all things. Refute the bad and Keep the good. Even the Bible says it. Have you ever noticed that the economic System of the Old Testament capitalistic was but the economy of the New Testament (church) was comunistic? So the good of both Systems have to be joined in order that it works Long Lasting. It's even in the Bible.

[strathmoredesigns]

On 9/30/2018 at 5:18 PM, CowboyBob said:

One more fly in the ointment,starting 9/24/18 there's a 10% tariff  on many goods from China & sewing machines & thread are on the list & it will be going up to 25% after 1/1/19.

@CowboyBob are you able to comment at all on how these will impact your business? I see Springfield is advertising a pre-tariff sale on their sewing machines. I can only assume all of the sellers will have to increase their prices at least a little. (Also, selfishly wondering if it makes sense to splurge on a big piece of metal before the new year).