Newbie Needs Help Picking A Machine

[Carrieanna1172]

I see from browsing this is a topic discussed often and it seems as though there are lots of different opinions but I will ask anyway.

I sew textiles a lot so I am not new to sewing but don't have much experience sewing leather.

I have several machines that say they are capable but they struggle with the thin stuff so will need t buy a new one

Anyhow I want to sew messenger bags, rucksacks backpacks that sort of thing maybe the occasional wallet and belt? tool belt , knife sheath etc no saddle work etc

I have recently used upholstery thread but am told the 3200 may not operate well with that small of a mil

Any suggestions I really like everything I have read and seen about the 3200 cowboy but probably overkill

anyone used know about the CB 227?

[JLSleather]

$2 says Bob Kovar can tell you exactly what the difference is (he sells both). The price is virtually the same either way. That said, I'd likely stick to the 3200. Reasoned ...

Price about the same either way.

The 227 has a top thread size of 207, which is likely heavy enough for you - at least most of the time. But on the low end of the scale, the 3200 will go down to a #18 needle and #69 thread, which is about as small as I get (I confess I used 10 yards of $46 - once - long time ago). If you have 'home' machines that 'struggle' with what you're sewing, the 18/69 is likely where you're headed. And the 3200 will bump up needles and thread size if you care to - where the 227 won't.

Belts are often sewn - at least up north here - with #138 or #207 thread, which either machine should handle. Further south, some o' them boys use thread that looks like it was made for towing my truck .. perhaps it's for emergency cow roping?

Bottom line -- you should talk to Bob ( http://www.tolindsewmach.com/ ) but my opinion, why spend money on a machine that will "just enough" do what you need, when the same money will get you what you need plus room for upgrades if you choose ...

[mlapaglia]

Well farther west we use #277 thread on belts and holsters. As stated we can use the thread for climbing and towing. I agree the 3200 is probably a better machine. I won a Boss but have tried a 3200 and its nice.

[Carrieanna1172]

I am leaning towards the 3200 , I spoke with Bob and he suggested the 227 but I also explained to him I am currently using upholstery thread. And am sewing bags etc . I guess I am just concerned I will want to start doing heavier projects that the smaller one can't handle

Watching then videos of the 3200 makes me o

Wants to do stronger heavier projects : )

Thanks for the input

[Carrieanna1172]

Ok one more There is a tech sew 302 considerably less pricey

Around $ 749 and opinions on this one or things I should know ?

[JLSleather]

You can walk down any city street and find two people who know more about that one than I do. Still, it LOOKS like a top thread size of 138, which alone would put it lighter duty than the 227. Someone else can give you more info on a "drop feed" machine (??).

Personally, I'd still be thinking about the 3200, but I'll leave this now to others with more knowledge than mine (meaning, nearly anyone at all)

[Gump]

The 302 comes with a clutch motor and you should really have a servo motor for leather work. If they are willing to change it over to a servo, it would be a decent machine but limited due to being a flatbed machine. My old Singer 153 w 103 cylinder arm machine gets a lot more use than my old 111 w 155 flatbed, although both have the same sewing capabilities. A flat bed attachment can be added to a cylinder arm machine to give you the best of both worlds. Gump

[Wizcrafts]

Carrie;

The CB3200, 2500, 4500 and 5500, as well as the Cobra Class 3 and 4 and Techsew 4100 and 5100, are known as "441" clones. This is deceptive, in that these machines are improvements on the Juki TSC-441 design and configuration. But, one thing they all have in common is the needle system they use. It is called either system 7x3, 7x4, or 794. This defines that particular needle architecture, which in this case has an overall length of about 2.75 inches. The "size" of the needle we often refer to is not the "system," but the diameter of the business end. Next, as leather sewers we prefer to use "leather point" needles, rather than standard sharp round points. Leather points slice neatly and can penetrate hard and thick leather with much greater ease than a same diameter round point. Round point needles often have some problems coming back up through tough leather. They often make an uncomfortable loud squeak on the way up. The 2.75 inch length is easily deflected if there are any misaligned edges between the layers. Pop goes a $1.00 needle.

I'm telling you this because the needles used in 441 clones are not commonly available in leather point under size 23, which is well balanced for #138 bonded nylon thread, top and bottom. Thus, if you have to sew a leather strap of about 1/8" thickness, but which is really dense stuff, you may be using a regular round point needle (size 22 or smaller) and thinner thread (size 138 and smaller). #138 thread is a tight fit in a #22 needle, but it's sometimes easier to balance the position of the knots in thinner leather than a #23 needle. Your needle may squeak and generate a lot of heat from friction and may even smoke the thread.

If your sacks and backpacks need a smaller thread, like #92 (T90), a #19 or 20 needle is best. But, they are not available in leather point is those small sizes.

This information is for the 441 clones. The 227 type machines are a step or two down in capacity. They use the same needles and presser feet as most of the commonly sold upholstery class walking foot machines. A 227 clone is built with #138 thread in mind. It can sew with a half size larger on top, if needed. But, if you have a thin project, or a pair of pants that need hemming, the 227 will be perfectly happy to sew with #69 (T70) bonded thread, or #80 jeans thread and even #40 button hole thread. All of the needle sizes I have seen can be had in leather point or round. We're talking small needles like size 14. Back off the thread tensions and you can even sew with standard home size 50 polycore or long grain Egyptian cotton thread. The needles are also much shorter that those used in the 441 and less likely to deflect and bend or break than a longer counterpart the same diameter.

Bottom line:

If 99% of your sewing will be under 3/8 inches of various materials, including leather and canvas and webbing, and the seams aren't normally subjected to a lot of tearing forces, #138 thread will probably hold it just fine. This is doubly true if you sew parallel stitch lines along critical seams. You can easily change to a #18 needle and #69 thread to sew the thin canvas parts, with just a twist of the top tension and just maybe a little tweaking of the bobbin "case" spring (for drop-in bobbin machines).

I have always maintained separate machines for thick and thin work.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Wizcrafts

[Carrieanna1172]

I'm sorry wiz craft I posted this question directly to you on a different page just disregard ? New to this dang it.

[Carrieanna1172]

Wow great info! Thanks Where is the one machine that does everything ? Looks like I still have a lot of learning to do

[machinehead]

Wiz, Thank you for posting this excellent treatise.

[billybopp]

Wiz:

I think the above post about needle systems would be a great addition to the pinned topic in sewing machines, as I don't remember seeing most of the info there.

Bill

[Techsew Ron]

I see from browsing this is a topic discussed often and it seems as though there are lots of different opinions but I will ask anyway.

I sew textiles a lot so I am not new to sewing but don't have much experience sewing leather.

I have several machines that say they are capable but they struggle with the thin stuff so will need t buy a new one

Anyhow I want to sew messenger bags, rucksacks backpacks that sort of thing maybe the occasional wallet and belt? tool belt , knife sheath etc no saddle work etc

I have recently used upholstery thread but am told the 3200 may not operate well with that small of a mil

Any suggestions I really like everything I have read and seen about the 3200 cowboy but probably overkill

anyone used know about the CB 227?

Hi Carrieanna, if most of what you're sewing will be thin leather for bags, backpacks, rucksacks and wallets, you should go with a light/medium machine. Your best choice would be a cylinder walking foot machine so you can sew into the insides of bags. This kind of machine can handle up to #210 thread and needles up to size #24, though you'll probably be using #20 needles with #69/#90 thread for most of your projects.

A machine like the 3200 or a 441 clone would probably be overkill and would limit you for sewing thin leather with smaller needle sizes. Your best bet is to go with the machine that will cover you for as many of the products you plan on sewing.

Feel free to give us a call with any questions!

Thanks,

Ron

Edited August 11, 2014 by Techsew Ron

[Carrieanna1172]

Just a quick update I bought a used consew 227 no reverse stitch

Thank you bob from cowboy machines ! So far so good! this is going to be a very good machine

For me to practice and learn on

I am really enjoying practicing

Maybe a dumb question idk but can u speed this machine up at all?

Quests I could call bob back and bug hi. Some more : )

[CowboyBob]

Just got it & it's to slow??There is a knob on the front of the motor you can turn to speed it up.

Please call anytime you have a question about your machine.

[mk1mad]

You could get a larger pulley for the end of the motor ,it's only 10 mins to swap it but you'll probably need a longer belt too , if it has a servo motor you can vary the speed with a knob usually on the motor or control box ,

Craig

[Carrieanna1172]

We'll I knew that was a dumb question I found the adjustment knob

And viola ! Plenty fast enough!

Thanks

[CowboyBob]

Carrie,there's no dumb questions...only dumb answers. LOL!!!

[Carrieanna1172]

Question Bob

I keep tripping the clutch safety ( thing)

I think that's what's happening

Anyway it stops walking? Is that normal when there is a slight thread jam?

Now I can't get it walking at all it was fine 5 minutes ago but I did turn the little knob on the

Tension wheel the one the belt is attached to? On accident really the knob has numbers

I don't know what it is called

[Carrieanna1172]

Ok I try to reset the clutch by pushing the button in and turning the the wheel clockwise and I have turned it both ways the button stay In a moment and then pops out? Not sure what it's supposed to do?

Ugh

[CowboyBob]

When you reset the clutch you need to push the button own,turn the handwheel backwards until you here a clicking noise(clutch popping in gear) then you can release the button.Is the clutch kicking out when you first start sewing?If so this can be cause because the needle thread needs to be held the first 3-stitches when you start sewing(so it doesn't wad up underneath the material)

[Carrieanna1172]

Ok I guess I'm working on the problem backwards and therefore am confusing myself and everyone else

*******The problem is the machine is not moving the leather though it's not pushing it through

********It sews ,moves and sounds fine but my leather won't walk or move

This happened before when I first got the machine and I think I caused it by turning the small knob I. The center of the big wheel the belt is attached to

Don't know how I fixed it the first time just jacked with it a lot and poof it worked again

**This time no luck and hours of turning it this way and that trying to reset clutch

Reading countless very confusing articles on timing and such

( I do not speak mechanic)

I don't believe the timing is off and I checked all the little screws under all the little face plates I could get to

But I don't know what to set that little knob to? There are numbers on it

And how to make it walk again?

Help! - Bob I am going to try to call during business hours while sitting in front of the machine

Perhaps you can walk me thru so adjustment on it

[Constabulary]

sounds like the set screws of the hand wheel are loose. There is a grove or flat sport on the shaft the hand wheel is attached to and one of the screws should sit in the grove.

[Wizcrafts]

...

********It sews ,moves and sounds fine but my leather won't walk or move

This happened before when I first got the machine and I think I caused it by turning the small knob I. The center of the big wheel the belt is attached to

The small knob in the center of the handwheel is the stitch length regulator. Turn it counterclockwise to lengthen the stitches and clockwise to shorten them. If you are unable to get the knob to turn ccw, open the metal plate on the top rear area of the machine. Inside you'll see a shaft that culminates in a circular plate with a movable assembly attached to it. Rotate the handwheel until you see a set screw inside a threaded hole. Caution: there are two threaded holes. One has a screwed on cover that holds a heavy coil spring against the shaft. You don't want to unscrew that cover, believe me.

Once you identify the hole with the set screw, use a narrow flat blade screwdriver to turn the screw in further, which increases the stitch length. Test a few stitches. If it isn't moving far enough, turn it in more.

Sometimes, the little knob gets cross threaded, or jams up and won't move freely. Oil may be your friend here.

While the steel cover plate is open, oil everything that has an oil hole or wick. Place oil in the gaps on the movable block parts that control the stitch length.

[Carrieanna1172]

Thank you so much wiz and bob!!!

you two are awesome!!!

Did as you said and then oiled everything then called Bob

He had me take out that little lock screw and the other longer one I there and re insert the thread length

Knob tube thingy

And then put the screws back in and viola !

Working like a brand new one ; )

Thank again!!