chip carving on leather

[leatheroo]

i have often admired chip carved woodwork and wondered if it could be applied to leather....so i bought a chip carving knife this morning, watched a few youtube videos and set knife to leather.... i think the results maybe worth exploring a bit more...and a lot more practice!!

this is what i produced one hour later.... i really wanted to burnish the little triangles but couldnt work out how to do it....anyway just a quick practice piece.

Edited November 21, 2008 by leatheroo

[TwinOaks]

Seems kinda like cheating....not having to use the mallet to stamp the leather down, and all. Interesting idea, and I can see where it could be used in a limited way, utilizing the different texture for emphasis. I just have to wonder if that much removal of leather would negatively affect it in anyway.

[ClayB]

It's always fun to see new ideas used on leather. Your first try looks good. I hope you do some more work like this and let us see what you come up with.

[Rawhide]

Roo,

This is basically applique embossing, without the top layer of leather added. It may be easier for you to use a scalpel. Another thing to think about is burnishing the cutout areas to smooth out the finish.

Looks good, I hope to see more. Always love your work!

Marlon

[TomSwede]

I love a new take on things Roo!!

I'm sure you can come up with some great ideas with this technique because your ideas are allways good.

Tom

[MADMAX22]

i have often admired chip carved woodwork and wondered if it could be applied to leather....so i bought a chip carving knife this morning, watched a few youtube videos and set knife to leather.... i think the results maybe worth exploring a bit more...and a lot more practice!!

this is what i produced one hour later.... i really wanted to burnish the little triangles but couldnt work out how to do it....anyway just a quick practice piece.

Hey Roo I think for the triangles that a dremmel may be the trick. Not sure of what attachment would work best but thats about the only way I can think of getting those smaller spots burnished and not burnish everythign else around it.

Good idea by the way, I think it will look really cool when you get it applied to a project.

[WyomingSlick]

i have often admired chip carved woodwork and wondered if it could be applied to leather....so i bought a chip carving knife this morning, watched a few youtube videos and set knife to leather.... i think the results maybe worth exploring a bit more...and a lot more practice!!

this is what i produced one hour later.... i really wanted to burnish the little triangles but couldnt work out how to do it....anyway just a quick practice piece.

Honestly? I don't see the point. What you have produced there looks like a bad piece of tooling, or to be more generous; what they call in the art world; "primitive art". A much more attractive representation of the design could be created using regular leather tools. Much of what is produced in leatherwork is functional in nature, ie; saddles, tack, belts, etc.. For these, chip carving the leather would not be practical since you are cutting away from the top grain structure which is the strongest part of the leather. One of the main reasons we don't see too many filigreed cinch straps on bronc saddles! Hey, don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with creativity and experimenting, that is the way of progress. My sister, who teaches pottery, has used leather stamps for years to make designs on pottery. I just don't see that your hour of creativity produced anything that couldn't be better done in ten minutes.

[Hilly]

Hey Roo, it's always nice to see someone try something a little different. Thanks for sharing.

And don't listen to people who don't offer constructive criticism.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Hilly

[leatherman1457]

Roo.my leather sensei had a techanique where he chip carved the leather and then embossed it with a 1/2 or 2/3 oz and use it for his 3-d leather mirrors and boxes and it was amazing what he created. I wish I had pictures. Those who say it is no good for anything or it is too primative has never broke out of the al stolhman carving phase and are still doing the samething 30 years later and have never advanced beyong hobby leather work.. they have never looked out of the box and they read a 50 year old book that said that their way was the only way to do leather and they took it to heart. the leather greats thought out of the box and that is why they have gone on to become the masters and future masters. those who can only do al stolhman work or sheridan work only are only limited by there limited imaganition. don't listen to them and don't be discourged by them ,.they are just purist that have no clue as to what you can do with leather .I feel sorry for them for they are being left behind in the 19th century. keep up the good work and if I can get pictures I will post them. Gary

[Peter Ellis]

Honestly? I don't see the point. What you have produced there looks like a bad piece of tooling, or to be more generous; what they call in the art world; "primitive art". A much more attractive representation of the design could be created using regular leather tools. Much of what is produced in leatherwork is functional in nature, ie; saddles, tack, belts, etc.. For these, chip carving the leather would not be practical since you are cutting away from the top grain structure which is the strongest part of the leather. One of the main reasons we don't see too many filigreed cinch straps on bronc saddles! Hey, don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with creativity and experimenting, that is the way of progress. My sister, who teaches pottery, has used leather stamps for years to make designs on pottery. I just don't see that your hour of creativity produced anything that couldn't be better done in ten minutes.

That "primitive art" has quite a substantial following. It's your opinion that the design could be better presented with conventional tooling techniques. The thing is, you can't get the effect 'roo achieved with conventional tooling techniques.

She's done something different, adapting techniques from another medium to leather and exploring the possibilities, That's a good thing, something to be encouraged, not stomped on.

We wouldn't have the techniques we do if someone had not explored and experimented before us.

I look forward to some more experimentation along these lines.

Roo.my leather sensei had a techanique where he chip carved the leather and then embossed it with a 1/2 or 2/3 oz and use it for his 3-d leather mirrors and boxes and it was amazing what he created. I wish I had pictures. Those who say it is no good for anything or it is too primative has never broke out of the al stolhman carving phase and are still doing the samething 30 years later and have never advanced beyong hobby leather work.. they have never looked out of the box and they read a 50 year old book that said that their way was the only way to do leather and they took it to heart. the leather greats thought out of the box and that is why they have gone on to become the masters and future masters. those who can only do al stolhman work or sheridan work only are only limited by there limited imaganition. don't listen to them and don't be discourged by them ,.they are just purist that have no clue as to what you can do with leather .I feel sorry for them for they are being left behind in the 19th century. keep up the good work and if I can get pictures I will post them. Gary

Gary, what you're describing sounds like inlay work to me. Another technique brought over from working in wood

[UKRay]

I just don't see that your hour of creativity produced anything that couldn't be better done in ten minutes.

Slick, perhaps you didn't understand that the design was not the object of the exercise? I have a huge amount of respect for Roo and the stuff she produces - not because it is necessarily technically excellent or even that it is elegant or useful (although it is usually all those things) - simply because it makes me think of new ways to do things. I don't always make things that are functional - sometimes leatherwork is about the look and feel of something beautiful - not just about how many pounds of horseflesh it will hold down. Let me be explicit: from where I sit leatherworking isn't simply about the next bit of fancy-assed Sheridan carving (no matter how beautifully it is done) or yet another acanthus leaf belt clone - after a thousand identical craftaid inspired carvings the design becomes stale. Leather isn't just for western saddles, boots or the tops of rodeo chaps - I see western style leatherwork all the time and, because so much is simply duplicating old designs, a lot of it makes me yawn. IMHO, leatherwork is a living craft that is still developing world wide (yes, even in Australia and the UK). If you are prepared to open your mind to new ideas then there is a wealth of learning to be had here. Suggesting that creativity is all about using leather stamps for pottery is insulting at best. Ray

[Luke Hatley]

:

Slick, perhaps you didn't understand that the design was not the object of the exercise? I have a huge amount of respect for Roo and the stuff she produces - not because it is necessarily technically excellent or even that it is elegant or useful (although it is usually all those things) - simply because it makes me think of new ways to do things. I don't always make things that are functional - sometimes leatherwork is about the look and feel of something beautiful - not just about how many pounds of horseflesh it will hold down. Let me be explicit: from where I sit leatherworking isn't simply about the next bit of fancy-assed Sheridan carving (no matter how beautifully it is done) or yet another acanthus leaf belt clone - after a thousand identical craftaid carvings the design becomes stale. Leather isn't just for western saddles, boots or the tops of rodeo chaps - I see western style leatherwork all the time and, because so much is simply duplicating old designs, a lot of it makes me yawn. IMHO, leatherwork is a living craft that is still developing world wide (yes, even in Australia and the UK). If you are prepared to open your mind to new ideas then there is a wealth of learning to be had here. Suggesting that creativity is all about using leather stamps for pottery is insulting at best. Ray

[Hilly]

:

Edited January 18, 2010 by Hilly

[CitizenKate]

I don't know how I missed this when you originally posted it, Roo. Guess I've got Slick to thank for finally getting to notice it. I have been considering trying the same thing, and I am always excited to see something I haven't seen a million times already. Though there is always room for refinement, fresh ideas and new techniques will always be welcome here, even if some people fail to comprehend the value of them.

Kate

[WyomingSlick]

Oh dear, did I stir up a bunch of tincan knights to ride to the lady's defense. I believe the lady posted on here to get honest reactions. And I gave one. So what is the problem with that? The way you all come on, a person would think you know little or nothing about leatherwork through the ages. Basically what she did there is a geometric pattern which is about as old of a leatherworking decoration method as you can get once mankind progressed past painting simple depictions of nature on hides. Most all of the Moorish leatherwork is of a geometric desgn due to religious constrictions. As was their woodwork, where much of the roots of chip carving in wood lie. Those Moorish designs are also the root of where many of the tools we term "geometric" come from. Every element of her design can be found in leather stamps. The flower is nothing special, it is just the reverse of a McMillen pattern from the old days, and the triangles are to be found as a segment of other McMillen geometric stamps. See attachment. Peter is somewhat correct is saying I couldn't ptoduce the effect with conventional tooling. That is true since I would have to take a modeling tool and screw up the impressions some to make it as uneven and primitive as hers is. But I could produce an even and much more attractive representation of the design with stamping tools

Actually, I find it kind of amusing as I see some of the folks replying to this thread, are the same ones who went on and on about how they have to use high dollar custom basketweaves and other geometrics to produce that "crisp" impression and then they turn around and slam me for pointing out that this looks "primitive". Go soak your heads!

My point was and still remains: that the product of the lady's effort was not worth the time to produce it. I have been an admirer of many differant styles of wood carving since I was a small boy. I was born overseas in Afghanistan, and when my family returned to the States we brought many examples of Afghan and Indian craftwork home with us. Some of the woodcarved item would be classified as primitive but each still has an intrinsic beauty and is a fine example of what a man can do with simple tools. As for tooling leather by using a knife to incise a design into the leather; been there, tried that.....a long time ago. Several problems with the process besides the factor of it weakening the leather. The leather has to relatively thick for much of an effect. Knives have to be razor sharp, and even then, are still difficult to control. Leather has to be fastened down since the force used is a sideways one. And when you are all done, still not so attractive. It is not real hard to see why such a process has not "caught on". This lady was not the first to try this, and I am sure I wasn't the first. I wasn't putting the artist down here, I was just saying I think the process is not very workable for leather. I have eyes to see and most of her work is very admirable. Her dragon motorcycle seat was vey impressive. This doesn't fall in that category.

Then there seems to be some opinions that I don't know art or have no appreciation for "thinking outside the box."

I realize that some people think Andy Warhol's painting of a Campbell soup can is fine art, but I will take a Leonardo or a Renoir anyday over that kind of stuff. Picasso? Hah, I think the guy's brain was addled by too much Madeira.

LOL While I'm on the subject of appraising work by an artist, I see some leatherwork on here that is praised as good when it is actually as bad or worse then some 9 year olds first effort. There's nothing wrong with encouragement, but then there is no value in praise for it's own sake. In fact I would say it is harmful to praise something that is unworthy.

[RWB]

Oh dear, did I stir up a bunch of tincan knights to ride to the lady's defense. I believe the lady posted on here to get honest reactions. And I gave one. So what is the problem with that? The way you all come on, a person would think you know little or nothing about leatherwork through the ages. Basically what she did there is a geometric pattern which is about as old of a leatherworking decoration method as you can get once mankind progressed past painting simple depictions of nature on hides. Most all of the Moorish leatherwork is of a geometric desgn due to religious constrictions. As was their woodwork, where much of the roots of chip carving in wood lie. Those Moorish designs are also the root of where many of the tools we term "geometric" come from. Every element of her design can be found in leather stamps. The flower is nothing special, it is just the reverse of a McMillen pattern from the old days, and the triangles are to be found as a segment of other McMillen geometric stamps. See attachment. Peter is somewhat correct is saying I couldn't ptoduce the effect with conventional tooling. That is true since I would have to take a modeling tool and screw up the impressions some to make it as uneven and primitive as hers is. But I could produce an even and much more attractive representation of the design with stamping tools

Actually, I find it kind of amusing as I see some of the folks replying to this thread, are the same ones who went on and on about how they have to use high dollar custom basketweaves and other geometrics to produce that "crisp" impression and then they turn around and slam me for pointing out that this looks "primitive". Go soak your heads!

My point was and still remains: that the product of the lady's effort was not worth the time to produce it. I have been an admirer of many differant styles of wood carving since I was a small boy. I was born overseas in Afghanistan, and when my family returned to the States we brought many examples of Afghan and Indian craftwork home with us. Some of the woodcarved item would be classified as primitive but each still has an intrinsic beauty and is a fine example of what a man can do with simple tools. As for tooling leather by using a knife to incise a design into the leather; been there, tried that.....a long time ago. Several problems with the process besides the factor of it weakening the leather. The leather has to relatively thick for much of an effect. Knives have to be razor sharp, and even then, are still difficult to control. Leather has to be fastened down since the force used is a sideways one. And when you are all done, still not so attractive. It is not real hard to see why such a process has not "caught on". This lady was not the first to try this, and I am sure I wasn't the first. I wasn't putting the artist down here, I was just saying I think the process is not very workable for leather. I have eyes to see and most of her work is very admirable. Her dragon motorcycle seat was vey impressive. This doesn't fall in that category.

Then there seems to be some opinions that I don't know art or have no appreciation for "thinking outside the box."

I realize that some people think Andy Warhol's painting of a Campbell soup can is fine art, but I will take a Leonardo or a Renoir anyday over that kind of stuff. Picasso? Hah, I think the guy's brain was addled by too much Madeira.

LOL While I'm on the subject of appraising work by an artist, I see some leatherwork on here that is praised as good when it is actually as bad or worse then some 9 year olds first effort. There's nothing wrong with encouragement, but then there is no value in praise for it's own sake. In fact I would say it is harmful to praise something that is unworthy.

Wow. Maybe a little more tact next time would be in order. Al Stolman doesn't have the corner market on leather.

Ross

[UKRay]

Well, Slick, I'm impressed. I didn't think it was possible to be more opinionated, inconsiderate and condescending that you were in your first post but you have proven me wrong. Congratulations! Ray

[Hilly]

Well, Slick, I'm impressed. I didn't think it was possible to be more opinionated, inconsiderate and condescending that you were in your first post but you have proven me wrong. Congratulations! Ray

Ray, I believe the word you were looking for is TROLL.

[RWB]

Well, Slick, I'm impressed. I didn't think it was possible to be more opinionated, inconsiderate and condescending that you were in your first post but you have proven me wrong. Congratulations! Ray

It's amazing how people have a tendency of doing that, isn't it Ray? Just when you think a line has been crossed. BAM!! Someone jumps over it.

Ross

[leatheroo]

Wow...an old post comes back from the grave!!!! The point of the exercise was to try something different....to explore techniques.. .so it looked crappy....perfection was not the point.

Does the technique work....probable not...i havent tried it again....but this failed exercise wont stop me trying new techniques and exploring new ways to manipulate leather and then asking for constructive criticism and suggestions.

cheers to my knights in shining armour!!!!!

[Spence]

Why the hell is he still around ?

He has never contributed anything constructive.

He's single-handedly killed the desire for newcomers to show their work for critique or advice.

There's millions of lesser forums that he could migrate his happy ass to.

[terrahyd]

LEATHER ROO THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR WORK WITH US ,,,WHAT YOU TRIED WAS NEET,,AS YOU SAID YOU MAY NOT DO MORE AND THATS UP TO YOU..THOUGHT ABOUT DOING IT MYSELF ONCE,,HANG IT ON THE WALL WITH OTHER THINGS YOU THOUGH OF AND TRIED ,,(YOU WALK BLIND LEST YOU KNOW FROM WHITCH YOU CAME ) ....MY WALL IS GETTEN KIND'A FULL,,BEST TO YOU ,,Doc....

[rickeyfro]

Slick, do you ever get as tired of hearing what youve got to say as the rest of us do????????????

Oh dear, did I stir up a bunch of tincan knights to ride to the lady's defense. I believe the lady posted on here to get honest reactions. And I gave one. So what is the problem with that? The way you all come on, a person would think you know little or nothing about leatherwork through the ages. Basically what she did there is a geometric pattern which is about as old of a leatherworking decoration method as you can get once mankind progressed past painting simple depictions of nature on hides. Most all of the Moorish leatherwork is of a geometric desgn due to religious constrictions. As was their woodwork, where much of the roots of chip carving in wood lie. Those Moorish designs are also the root of where many of the tools we term "geometric" come from. Every element of her design can be found in leather stamps. The flower is nothing special, it is just the reverse of a McMillen pattern from the old days, and the triangles are to be found as a segment of other McMillen geometric stamps. See attachment. Peter is somewhat correct is saying I couldn't ptoduce the effect with conventional tooling. That is true since I would have to take a modeling tool and screw up the impressions some to make it as uneven and primitive as hers is. But I could produce an even and much more attractive representation of the design with stamping tools

Actually, I find it kind of amusing as I see some of the folks replying to this thread, are the same ones who went on and on about how they have to use high dollar custom basketweaves and other geometrics to produce that "crisp" impression and then they turn around and slam me for pointing out that this looks "primitive". Go soak your heads!

My point was and still remains: that the product of the lady's effort was not worth the time to produce it. I have been an admirer of many differant styles of wood carving since I was a small boy. I was born overseas in Afghanistan, and when my family returned to the States we brought many examples of Afghan and Indian craftwork home with us. Some of the woodcarved item would be classified as primitive but each still has an intrinsic beauty and is a fine example of what a man can do with simple tools. As for tooling leather by using a knife to incise a design into the leather; been there, tried that.....a long time ago. Several problems with the process besides the factor of it weakening the leather. The leather has to relatively thick for much of an effect. Knives have to be razor sharp, and even then, are still difficult to control. Leather has to be fastened down since the force used is a sideways one. And when you are all done, still not so attractive. It is not real hard to see why such a process has not "caught on". This lady was not the first to try this, and I am sure I wasn't the first. I wasn't putting the artist down here, I was just saying I think the process is not very workable for leather. I have eyes to see and most of her work is very admirable. Her dragon motorcycle seat was vey impressive. This doesn't fall in that category.

Then there seems to be some opinions that I don't know art or have no appreciation for "thinking outside the box."

I realize that some people think Andy Warhol's painting of a Campbell soup can is fine art, but I will take a Leonardo or a Renoir anyday over that kind of stuff. Picasso? Hah, I think the guy's brain was addled by too much Madeira.

LOL While I'm on the subject of appraising work by an artist, I see some leatherwork on here that is praised as good when it is actually as bad or worse then some 9 year olds first effort. There's nothing wrong with encouragement, but then there is no value in praise for it's own sake. In fact I would say it is harmful to praise something that is unworthy.

[MikeCahill]

Slick, do you ever get as tired of hearing what youve got to say as the rest of us do????????????

by starting the thread Roo was inviting comment, Slick made his comments and is entitled to his opinion. His comments didn't seem to be a personal attack on Roo to me, abrupt maybe but he wasn't getting at her, I haven't read any of his other posts, so I don't know if there is a back story, and I don't know if his comments will deter other people from posting, but some of the responses are rude to the point of bullying. in a flame war everybody loses. I would like to think that I could give an honest opinion without facing the sort of attack that he has been subjected to.

cheers

Mike

[Spence]

Mike, it would be a very good idea if you were to read ALL of his other comments.