Stitch Quality On Sewing Machines

[fenceguy1984]

Hi everyone, new to the forums here but have been doing leather work for 3-4 years now. Mainly heavy/thick items like sheaths, holsters and other odds and ends. Over the past year I've had much interest in some leather cases I make and I honestly can't keep up with the demand while hand stitching and hand cutting everything. I'm planning to get some clicker dies made and using my shop press to help speed up cutting. For sewing, I'm going through 4 layers of 7/8 OZ so just about 1/2 inch. Hand sewing is very beautiful and strong but It simply takes me too long, maybe an hour per piece now that I've gotten pretty good at it and use my drill press to pilot the holes.

Questions for you guys:

What sewing machine would you recommend that gives a good looking stitch? I've been having the typical tippmann boss vs power machine debate myself. Leaning towards a powered machine. In your experience does something like a Cowboy 3200 or similar machines give a nice clean stitch? How does it compare to hand sewing? How does the Tippmann Boss compare to these in terms of stitch quality? I'm planning to call the shop in Toledo, OH to get their ideas and see what used machines are in stock. Since I live close by I may road trip there one day soon.

Thanks everyone! Any tips would be much appreciated!

Jon

[fenceguy1984]

Would anyone be willing to post some close up photos of the stitching (front and back please) they're getting with a properly tuned machine, Cowboy 3200, 4500 ect, others electrics, tippmann boss, needle / awl machines?

Thanks!

[Dwight]

Look at the stuff on my website ( www.dwightsgunleather.com ) everything done there is on a Tippmann Boss.

Secondarily, . . . if you are making a road trip to Toledo, . . . you may as well add the east side of Ft. Wayne, . . . ask for Ben, . . . at the Tippmann company. Ben has always been MORE than helpful to me.

Personally, . . . I like my boss (guess it is obvious) and for what you are doing, . . . but any machine sewing will punch out the bottom side, . . . it WILL look like it was done on a machine, . . . which you will not get by hand sewing.

However, . . . having said that, . . . I see only two choices for you, . . . get a machine so you can keep up, . . . or raise your prices so you can stand the volume loss because you cannot keep up.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Cobra Steve]

Hello fenceguy1984. Contact all of he advertisers on this site. We all are knowledgeable, and will give you our best advice.

[johnv474]

The post you replied to might be older than you thought.

 

That said, I too would like to compare handsewn vs machine-sewn... but a fair comparison. There is little value in comparing Hermes' hand sewing vs sweatshop wallets sewn with 46 thread. For one thing, the products made in those environments aren't direct competitors. Likewise, there is little value in comparing novice craft-type sewing using hobby store materials with high-end machine sewn using nicer materials.

 

Out of interest, do you have specifics on what you consider properly trained, for hand sewing?

[JLSleather]

Hand sewing -- despite long winded videos and a bunch of people who want to use stories of their "vast training" to inflate the price of simple goods -- doesn't take that long to learn.  Years ago, I bought Stohlman's book, got the tools recommended in it, and went to stitchin'.

These days, most of my sewing is done with a machine - except those times where it's simply easier to sew than to set up the machine, or if someone should request that (which never happens, almost), or if there is something which simply won't fit in a machine.

I've seen both machine and hand sewn projects which look great.  And I've also seen both which were clearly sub-par (pronounced krap).

Bob (Kovar) can no doubt fix you up (in teh Toledo shop you mentioned).  4 layers of 9 oz sounds like 1/2" thick, which may be at the top end of teh 3200, but--- ask Bob to confirm.

My opinion -- pay no attention to those on about "hand sewn" or "machine sewn", and look instead for WELL sewn!

 

[Wizcrafts]

6 hours ago, Sticks said:

Bravo,,exactly my point..The machine can already do it ,,,well assuming its timed ,right needle, thread etc but putting these things in place is a lot easier than getting the right sized awl assuming you manage to find out it was the awl in the first place...finding the video that actually troubleshoots, etc etc etc.

This reminds me about the differences between modern lockstitch sewing machines and old fashioned needle and awl harness stitchers of yesteryear. The goal of sewing is sometimes just a straight top stitch line with well buried knots to keep the materials from falling apart. Other times the stitching becomes part of the design and the bottom stitches must resemble the top ones, which are sometimes slanted, not straight. This is a problem for most modern sewing machines. Those are times when independent craftsmen (and women) can charge extra for hand sewing for a perfect top and bottom appearance. By properly angling the stabbing awl, one can hand sew slanted stitch lines that match on the top and bottom.

Back in the late 1880s through early 1900s, a few harness machinery builders came up with some ingenious sewing machine designs that were able to closely approximate the visual appearance of hand saddle stitched leather goods (mostly on harness and tack). They created "needle and awl machines." This isn't the place to go into great depth about this type of sewing machinery. Perhaps someone will be interested in starting a new thread about them. Suffice it to say that the machines that are still available and have parts made tend to cost double or triple what one would pay for a brand new "441" clone. Learning curves can be strenuous and there is lots of room for error and serious injuries with some of these machines (I know).

If one wants a close to perfect top and bottom stitch, one can either locate and finance a working or rebuilt condition needle and awl machine (with very expensive needles, awls, bobbins and accessories), or hunt down an elusive Number 9 or Luberto Classic, or a Ferdinand Bull jump foot, needle feed machine. These machines have one thing in common: no feed dog, a jumping foot and either needle or awl feeding of the leather. Lacking an inside alternating foot (standard on walking foot machines), they don't suffer from the obvious oval or round depressions surrounding the needle holes on the bottom stitch line.

I have been able to come close to this appearance on my Cowboy CB4500 by removing the feed dog and swapping out the standard throat plate for one with a long narrow slot, a little wider than a #27 needle. Others have had custom plates milled out with even narrower slots, more suited to a #25 needle. By operating with the lowest spring pressure needed to hold the leather down, this minimizes the puckering on the bottom of the needle holes. Not as nice as a Union Lockstitch, Campbell Lockstitch, or Landis 3, but nice enough to please most buyers of the sewn goods.

IHTH

[MADMAX22]

Wiz I dont know about the 441s being even close to the awl machines in stitch appearance. Maybe the top layer but the bottom is no where close to what I have scene. The slotted needle plate seems to make the bottom even worse IMHO, it makes the bottom deformities even more defined plus it removes the ability to do a decent reverse stitch.

Now if we could just get a decent awl machine cloned.  

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, MADMAX22 said:

Wiz I dont know about the 441s being even close to the awl machines in stitch appearance. Maybe the top layer but the bottom is no where close to what I have scene. The slotted needle plate seems to make the bottom even worse IMHO, it makes the bottom deformities even more defined plus it removes the ability to do a decent reverse stitch.

Now if we could just get a decent awl machine cloned.  

Backing off the top tensions and pressures is the key here. What's missing is metal behind the inside foot (the harness outer feet are open behind the inner foot). That is as good as it gets for a two footed machine. Maybe somebody with a machine shop can come up with an outside 441 presser foot with solid steel inline with the needlebar and the same narrow profile as the ones shipping with the machines.

The different feed in reverse is a penalty. But, none of the needle and awl machines have reverse.

[MADMAX22]

1 minute ago, Wizcrafts said:

Backing off the top tensions and pressures is the key here. What's missing is metal behind the inside foot (the harness outer feet are open behind the inner foot). That is as good as it gets for a two footed machine. Maybe somebody with a machine shop can come up with an outside 441 presser foot with solid steel inline with the needlebar and the same narrow profile as the ones shipping with the machines.

The different feed in reverse is a penalty. But, none of the needle and awl machines have reverse.

Have scene a few different custom jobs but nobody is really selling them for some reason, personally dont have the time to be making them but hopefully will at some point. I have not used the reverse on my 4500 in a long while, got tired of the back becoming a mess or the mismatching alignment. It does turn out alot nicer just flipping it around to back stitch. 

Did get the inline ones Bob carries or use to carry, it works good with the holster/stirrup/slotted plates but is harder to get to play correctly when the feed dog is underneath. 

[dikman]

Sticks, I doubt very much if a high-end fashion house is going to be very interested in a beautiful row of saddle stitches. It's doubtful if their customers would know the difference between a saddle stitch and a machine stitch anyway (or even care), so I don't think it's a valid comparison. Besides, I think we all know that much of the high end stuff is churned out of the same factories as the budget stuff, so little difference in the type of stitching (=machine). As for learning to stitch, like JLS I got the books, watched some youtube vids and away I went. It's not that hard once you understand the mechanics of it but like most things does require some practice.

The main reason for using machines is one of economics - if it's your livelihood then it's all about getting a return for your time and hand stitching can make that almost impossible. I just made a couple of small knife sheaths and a couple of cartridge-loop strips (for Cowboy Action stuff). Because they are smallish items I chose to hand stitch but this was my choice and there's no way I can charge the guy for the extra time, but because it's just a hobby for me that doesn't matter. In my opinion the hand stitching looks much better anyway (and he'll no doubt show them to others so I want them looking good).