What Is The Point Of A Head/round Knife?

[Trox]

Yes a round knife can do all the cutting techniques that is required in leather work, no other knife can do that.

Tor

[silverwingit]

Good thread!

Just a few quick points that I'd like to expand on. I'm in the right tool for the job camp. As a result I have a host of different leather blades, from a Stanley cutter to a couple round knives and most everything in between; clickers, curved and straight skivers, etc.

If I'm cutting a long straight line I get my best results with a freshly stropped Stanley blade and a good, thick straight edge. But that's the extent of my use of that style knife. For most other cuts I use one of my round knives. For detailed curves I use a freshly stropped CSO small round knife with the handle cut down and rounded to fit my palm perfectly. With two fingers on the blade and the handle nestled securely in my palm, the knife is no longer scary but a precision instrument over which I have very solid control. I have ~never~ cut myself with it. For less detail curved cuts I use my Weaver round knife. It holds an edge a bit better than the Osborne. For really detailed work I will revert to a clicker knife with a freshly stropped curved blade.

There are a few distinct advantages of a round knife over a Stanley cutter. One has been mentioned briefly -- round knifes are push blades. This is important for me with thin leather as the push blade and curved center portion can be put to use in ways that don't deform thin leather. It's also easier to cut around corner with the multiple pass method using a push blade. Someone also mentioned that just seeing where you are cutting is easier with round knives. The round knife is actually three blades in one. With a cut that contains combinations of straight and curved segments, a round knife makes the job much easier and more accurate -- with a single blade. Just tip the blade to use the pointed ends for fine cuts and back to the curved section for straight segments. When one point needs stropping you just use the other one instead of having to drop your project and grab the strop.

I feel like there are as many leatherworkers in the "he had a round knife so I had to get one as well" or have them as a badge courage or whatever camp as there are "well ~I~ don't need a round knife because ~I~ can to it all with my $5 Stanley knife" camps.

It's silly, learn to use them all well and to apply them to their best advantages!

Michelle

[Oldtoolsniper]

Whatever you use learn to sharpen the tool at hand.

Go on EBay and find a head knife for $20-30 and learn to sharpen it. I posted the picture of my pile waiting to be rehabbed in the box of chocolates for a reason. Forrest Gump said it. It's true with these knives, even from the same maker they can vary significantly and how they hold an edge and how hard they sharpen. Some of them have had a hard life, get those and learn so your mistakes in sharpening them won't cost you an expensive knife. Some are thick, some are thin, some are brittle and some just glide through whatever is in front of them. I rehab and sharpen old handsaws and the same thing applies to these. There were no computer controlled tempering ovens back then, a calibrated eyeball did the work and it might have had a few drinks the night before.

[Art]

Pay attention closely to any knife, especially those of questionable lineage. There are some toold that have been sharpened by someone with a trademaster (cheap) grinder who knows not a lot about knives/steel/heat treat. It is very easy to overheat or burn a spot on an edge and ruin the knife. I could do that then buff the evidence away. I won't or if I did (haven't killed an edge in decades), I will disassemble the knife and heat treat it, then sharpen. If you find a knife that's a little iffy, buy it for practice, and id you want to heat treat it, come on here and I will tell you how. There are a few of us on here that can help.

JLS said:

Oh, I don't go back quite all the way to the 70's (just a kid) - so nowadays 'round these parts we say 4140 and D2 for steel.

CSO is still using 1065 and 1075. I have D2 and BG-42 in addition a lot of tool and bearing steel in the shop, but there are a lot of knives that get great mileage out of steels of less than 1% carbon and no chrome at all.

Art.

[JLSleather]

But,,.. But.... but chrome is SHINY #$!@#!@$!~!!!

[oltoot]

I went through this whole thread quickly and only saw one brief hit on the "answer". It goes beyond the knives/tools comparisons to the total systems to be employed. 1) proper cutting surface; it takes two to fully enjoy the differences. For cutting there is much discussion and many different opinions on the best surface and I won't repeat all that, just say that a good surface must be somewhat penetrable by the point but not be too fragile and so then all cutting can be done away from the user with the point and connected one third of the blade and without blocking visibility. 2) for the other area of use , skiving and other related actions, the surface must be slick, hard and non staining. For most skiving the center third of the blade is used though the whole blade is employed for some tasks. So an experienced user of round/head knives never cuts toward him/herself and never obscures the cutting activity with hands, fingers or other body parts. Now, of course, accidents/slips do happen and a little blood is drawn once in awhile. It does take a little practice to learn to sharpen them and there will be a few cases where a straight knife is called for but once they are learned there is no need to consider abandoning them in favor of anything else. All this from the perspective of one who is 70+ years old and has been at this for 50+ years. My day job was cowboy and I wore out a lot of ropes and PTL I still have all my digits and have never passed out from blood loss.

Edited September 15, 2015 by oltoot

[electrathon]

This is a video of a round knife cutting through a stack of leather.

https://instagram.com/p/svqvXNogvV/

[natenaaron]

ooooooooOOOOOOoooooo sharp. I would have liked to get a wider shot to maybe see how much pressure he was putting on the blade. I don't think it was much though.

[JLSleather]

A video? Of course there is

[DoubleC]

You ask a question on here and you get mostly help and then a joker (sometimes more) that tells you, 'I taint never needed no rounded knife so taint no one needs no rounded knife. ' and scoffs at you for even asking. I remember when this use to happen to me when I was new and I wonder why some people are allowed to continually scoff at questions and treat real answers with disdain. I hope you found your answer in among all the noise and cruel jokes. Cheryl

[zuludog]

Well. DoubleC, I hope I'm not guilty of your criticism

I tried to point out in my post that I haven't had the time or experience to learn how to use a round knife, nor the money to buy one, so for the work that I do a Stanley knife is good enough; though I try to use it as well as I can

A round knife is a better all-round tool, but trickier to use, and I respect anyone who can master it, or is trying to.

If that didn't come across very well, and if I've offended anyone, I apologise

I try to help anyone with what knowledge and experience I've picked up, but I admit that I tend to drone on a bit.

[JLSleather]

If someone can find where I said the OTHER guy shouldn't get a round knife.. I'll kiss yer... uhh.. nevermind. I did make light (twice) of the idea of a video about having a round knife (which it turns out is exactly correct). SO, IF someone was to want to go back and find where I said --- whatever they thought they heard -- here's what I said.. save ya some time. My mistake for getting anywhere near a conversation that doesn't concern me anyway.

________________

Post 2

Actually, I'm sure you'll have some folks liniin' up here to tell you all about so many wonderful needs for the things, but I've never owned one.

Sept 7

There's nothing wrong with tradition -- each his own. But I'm not getting a round knife to do what I already do without one.

Post 15

But if the original question wasn't what I thought, then I'll ask it myself .. what can you do with a round knife that you couldn't do with something else?

Post 22

Everything on my site -- and 100 times more --- all done without a round blade, or head knife, whatchacallit. Good news... those who like 'em, can take the last one on the shelf.. don't wait for me!

Post 24

What is important is the finished appearance of the wall.

Post 26

I don't see anybody "anti- round knife. In fact, I view them like golf... no problem if the OTHER guy does it..

Post 30

The guy's question (in case it got lost)... was IF there was a significant advantage over other types of blades. For me, there is not.

Post 33

What exactly DID they say it will do, that something else wouldn't?

Post 48

So, IF I ever have any reason at all to cut an inch of leather, I'll certainly be back to ask if anyone recommends a good one.

Post 49

I think you have hit SMACK on the issue here, Art

Post 55

But,,.. But.... but chrome is SHINY #$!@#!@$!~!!!

Post 59

A video? Of course there is

[DoubleC]

Zulu you didn't say anything. And I shouldn't have either. If people want to think theey know everything there is to know, it's none of my business.

[Art]

You ask a question on here and you get mostly help and then a joker (sometimes more) that tells you, 'I taint never needed no rounded knife so taint no one needs no rounded knife. ' and scoffs at you for even asking. I remember when this use to happen to me when I was new and I wonder why some people are allowed to continually scoff at questions and treat real answers with disdain. I hope you found your answer in among all the noise and cruel jokes. Cheryl

Cheryl,

I didn't see a lot of that here. The gist of most of the content is you don't NEED a head knife or round knife if you can't afford it. Some who CAN afford one simply got used to using a utility knife or a clicker knife, and basically do excellent work with them. If anyone can afford a head knife, I can; I've got a whole drawer full of them, well two or three drawers actually. Still, most of my work (at least small or thin stuff) is done with a clicker knife or a scalpel, and I will admit two very small head knives that were experimental ones by Bill are used a lot. I haven't seen many jokers here, except maybe a humorous story that has some final point. I do remember stories of Someone who talked in parables quite often. I read back looking for someone scoffing at questions and treating real answers with disdain, but reading with a critical eye, couldn't find any. I did find acceptable answers among the songs of praise for everyone's favorite knife, although it was a loooong read. If the OP stuck with the thread, the answer is there, but please remember that this IS a somewhat social network, and personalities are like night and day, serious, not so serious, serious as a heart attack, and one flew over the cuckoo's nest. Try to remember that if you really need an answer, say "guys, I really need an answer", and usually someone who gave a lighthearted reply will come back with a serious answer or solution. If one of the mods see this happening, they will answer if nobody else does, or find someone who knows but might not have been listening. Leatherworker.net is a community, we all try to help.

Art

[seabee]

JLSLeather, I use both. The Stanley and a small round knife. You either like a round knife, or you don't. So, go kick the can down the road.

Howard

God Be With You

[Windrider30]

Yep Cheryl I did get the info I was looking for, learned about a few things and even learned about a new knife (the Japenese leather knife) that I had not even thought of or heard of, there is a bit of a pissing contest on what is the " better" knife which I did not ask but it is good to know what the whole point behind the head knife is other then to scare the ever liveing crap out of people lol.

[Thor]

... but it is good to know what the whole point behind the head knife is other then to scare the ever liveing crap out of people lol.

Head knife and round knife are two different knifes. A round knife looks more like a half-moon and a head knife like a quarter of a circle kinda...

[DoubleC]

Windrider I'm glad you got an answer. Cheryl

[Trox]

A head knife is 180 degrees from tip to tip or less. A round knife is larger than 180 degrees.

I do not see the point of wasting more time answering this topic, when JLSLeather have already decided his mind that the tool can be replaced by a utility knife. I will turn the question around and ask: what knife can to the same as a round knife? Referring to post # 15. He is not talking about "without one" he is talking about "something else". I understand that to be another knife and not several other tools. I know you will have a hard time doing all those different cuts with another type of knife. Unless it's not a type of Swiss pocket knife with hundred different blades, included a roller blade.

Tor

[Tannin]

I'm still a relative beginner myself but I enjoy the challenge of using my large NOS George Barnsley "round knife". I use mine mainly for cutting out larger pieces of leather currently & I have tried skiving with it. I strongly recommend that you read Al Stohlman's book Leathercraft Tools first, it has a lot of safety/technique info. that may save your finger tips. It also provides sharpening advice.

... The other reason I really do like the Stanley as mentioned, no sharpening needed.

Using a round knife and blade sharpening both require skills/experience, which no doubt presents yet another hurdle to beginners. But once beyond the basics, learning news skills like this could be looked on as a welcome challenge - an opportunity to improve & grow. And sharpening especially is such a useful skill: Embrace blade sharpening

[Of course, for professionals, time is money, so whatever makes most effective use of your time. Don't let tradition hold you back.]

Edited October 8, 2015 by Tannin

[Tannin]

BTW I also have a fancy-looking clicker's knife (the"industrial knife" from Tandy I believe), with walnut & brass handle - but I do not recommend it: although the blades are sharp & well shaped, they are much, much shorter than the very long (and therefore longer lasting) ones of a traditional English clicker's knife, which costs half the price. Also the fancy handle is not good: the wood was split when it arrived, the brass-lock mechanism is crudely held together inside and its design prevents the use of the longer traditional blades. The lock mechanism doesn't work well: it sticks when you need it to move and moves when you need it to stick. It seems weak too. The brass has also become incredibly tarnished despite being kept alongside many other tools (mostly rust-prone carbon steel) which are fine. It was a bad purchase all round, very disappointing (although it cuts well enough).

If you like this style of knife (they are very good for cutting around patterns, especially smaller patterns), I would suggest getting one of the cheaper, plainer looking, traditional black handled ones (such as the one sold by Dixons & others) that take the longer blades; they have stood the test of time. I did see a similar one with a blue plastic handle, that might be even better (less chance of the handle splitting) but I could not find a supplier. Or get a vintage fixed blade clicker's knife if you can find one (I couldn't, they might have been used only/mainly in France).

Or simply use broad concave curved blades in your Stanley knife (I got some good, thick, single ended, made-in-Sheffield blades like this on ebay). And strop them! :^D

Edited October 8, 2015 by Tannin

[zuludog]

As I've mentioned before, I mainly use a Stanley knife but re - sharpen the blades on an oilstone & strop, which I think improves them.

I also have a 4" chef's knife, and as it 's carbon steel I no longer use it in the kitchen, but I'm gradually sharpening and re - shaping the blade slightly to use it as a clicker knife.

Soon I'll probably bind the plastic handle in linen thread to get a better grip. If I feel keen I might remove the plastic handle altogether and fit a fatter wooden handle

[TinkerTailor]

This is a really cool round knife trick. It gets to the point of a round knife. I don't think you can do this faster any other way,

https://youtu.be/J5GqItjXtRI

there are quite a few good tricks on this channel from a real pro.

Like this sharpening video. The strop is a 4 foot 2x6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OTSNhCePno

Edited October 9, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[JLSleather]

That guy makes it look simple. I suppose we have to have another 5 pages if I say that what he did could have been done with about any kind of knife? I usually use a #11 x-acto for that

[Art]

Jeff,

You know darned well that only a "head" knife can be used to make the strap-point ends. You have to use a "round" knife for them round strap ends.

Before everyone pulls the trigger on me, this is a joke son.

Art