Pancake holster construction

[JLSleather]

Stumbled across this picture on the web somewhere.. guy claiming that one is thicker than the other and thus his was "better".  In under a minute, let me show you why it doesn't matter

Here's the picture.  

Somebody was claiming that the one on the right was somehow "thinner" and thus "more concealable" (and it's debated on a number of gun  forums).  BUT ...

In both 'versions', the gun is the same thickness.  And there are two layers of leather, one front and one back.  And that's it.  The gun thickness plus two layers of leather, is the same either way.  While they can be made to RIDE differently, just changing which piece gets the molding will obviously NOT change the thickness of the holster.

When worn, there could be a little air space between teh wearer and the holster, especially close to the firearm.  But the holster where the gun is will be against the hip (in both cases) and the thickness is the same, so they protrude the same amount.

So what's the point?  Molding in the front panel, or molding both panels to the middle, SAME thickness.

 

[Albob]

Agreed the thickness is the same. I like molding only the front panel because I feel it is more comfortable and looks better. Of course this is all conjecture because I live in San Diego CA. The chances of the average good guy getting a permit is slim to none. Thanks to our sheriff who feels citizens with guns is a bad thing. Unless you are a big donor to his campaign.

[JLSleather]

I agree with the comfort of a (mostly) flat back holster.  A bit more time to make, perhaps, but not much.  TOO many of the pancakes I see molded "in the middle" or "50/50" have slots too close to the weapon (like an extra 1" of belt space would kill)) which can cause binding of the weapon on a pancake.  With a flat (or near flat) back, this is eliminated.  Darn.. did I just let out another tip for free?@@!  I have GOT to quit that ...

 

[Dwight]

I've found the one on the right is a bit more uncomfortable for me, . . . mainly because I'm one bony guy.  Not much lard or meat on these bones, . . . maybe a bit hanging over the buckle out front, . . . but even that is not much.

All that said, . . . the one on the right is a "pain cake" for me, . . . much prefer the one on the left.  But also, . . . though it is the same thickness, . . . because it does not get pulled in next to my bony old self, . . . it does protrude a bit more.  Not much, . . . but then you don't need much to look out of place.

But that's just my take on the discussion, . . . YMMV

May God bless,

Dwight

[OLDNSLOW]

I understand the sheriff up in Riverside is all for issuing permits, and what about the court case about a year ago didn't that make a difference on the issuance of permits in San Diego and being next to the border you would think it would.  But I digress, Jeff is it more or less a guess when adding a little bit more leather to get to a flat back, or is it trial and error to get the amounts correct?

Thanks

[chiefjason]

I've built a cult following making flat back holsters.  I find them much more comfortable, to the point I can sleep in the recliner wearing a CZ75b.  Or ride around in the car with it on all day.  I even do my IWB holsters flat unless they are single clip fold over styles.  And then I try to mold as little as possible on the back.  I think OWB they ride tighter to the body too.  The gun still stands off, and thickness is the same, but overall the back and loops ride tighter since the holster is not offset from the belt by the back mold.  

[JLSleather]

12 hours ago, OLDNSLOW said:

Jeff is it more or less a guess when adding a little bit more leather to get to a flat back, or is it trial and error to get the amounts correct?

Thanks

Done all sorts o ways.  Some 'rough cut' the front piece wider and trim after forming.  Others refine their pattern so they mold like that but no trimming required later.  One advantage is that the holster need not be as wide - the slots can be closer to the weapon.

 

[JLSleather]

6 hours ago, chiefjason said:

I think OWB they ride tighter to the body too.  The gun still stands off, and thickness is the same, but overall the back and loops ride tighter since the holster is not offset from the belt by the back mold.  

I think that's 3 of us saying the same thing a different way (I think Dwight was meaning the same thing here).  It's the same amount of leather, inside to outside, but the 'air space' with the "flat back" (mine are about 80/20 with a curve, not true "flat") is on the outside.  Which is a rather long way of saying that the "back and loops ride tighter"

 

[Josh Ashman]

I stitch my pancake holsters while flat then form them. I start forming on the front then finish up on the back. I use my thumbs to get started then finish with a smooth face hammer to add any boning lines, which I am not very good at. I'd guess mine end up about 60% formed on the front and 40% on the back, which is easy to do as cased leather is pretty pliable. Before I had a sewing machine I'd stitch the top line, form and then sew the bottom side, just like Dwight does and they were probably more like 80% formed on the front. With the machine I think it's easier to stitch them up 100% then form so they are closer to 50/50.

Anyway, I don't think there is much difference at all. I wish I had a picture of a finished holster from the same view as the sketch above to illustrate but I don't so your left to your imagination. To me the holster shown on the right isn't drawn correct, the "wings" should be formed in a curve. Even if the maker builds it flat when it's put on and a belt is tightened it will curve around. Most makers I know pre-curve them like I do. So once you imagine the one on the right with the wings curved the difference between the two is minimal. 

I drive to Utah from Missouri and back ever summer, it's a 20 hour one way drive that my wife and I drive straight through. We switch off the actual driving occasionally and I generally spend 15 or so hours of it behind the wheel. I carry a 5" 1911 at 3 o clock the whole time I'm driving. I usually take it off when I switch over to the passenger seat but not always. Does this mean my holsters are somehow "better"? I say it absolutely does not, it just means that I am used to carrying my gun in my holster and to me it's either comfortable or at least what I perceive as normal. 

I say put them together the way you like best and call it good. Saying one is better or worse than the other to me is just silly.

All the best, Josh

[chiefjason]

On April 21, 2016 at 8:41 AM, JLSleather said:

I think that's 3 of us saying the same thing a different way (I think Dwight was meaning the same thing here).  It's the same amount of leather, inside to outside, but the 'air space' with the "flat back" (mine are about 80/20 with a curve, not true "flat") is on the outside.  Which is a rather long way of saying that the "back and loops ride tighter"

 

So you are saying they ride tighter?  That's crazy talk.  lol

[Josh Ashman]

I think holsters built with quality leather that are designed and assembled with solid principles ride tighter. I think this applies to the flat backed holsters that Chiefjason builds as well as the 80/20 holsters that JLS makes and I believe it is equally true of a 50/50 molded holster. If you make it out of quality leather and you have a solid design and good construction it will ride tight, hold the grip in close and hold up to use very well. I don't see the flat back or molded back as being that big of a determining factor, although I certainly could be wrong. To me the more important issues would be the location of the belt slots, the cant, the weight of the leather and the location on the hide the leather came from. Add to all of this a healthy amount of attention to detail and some sewing skills (whether by hand or machine) and you'll have a great holster. You each make great holsters, I don't attribute it to whether the back is flat or not.

All the best, Josh

[chiefjason]

1 hour ago, Josh Ashman said:

You each make great holsters, I don't attribute it to whether the back is flat or not.

All the best, Josh

That first part is absolutely correct.  I've learned tons here regardless of style.  The second part is the subjective part.  And it gets into personal preferences.  I have repeat that come back because they prefer the flat back style over 50/50.  I've got some that come back mainly because I can do custom work on their odd guns, but stay because they like the holsters.  And I probably have a few that didn't like them and will not tell me.  Gotta be a couple out there.  

On the maker side, they are different to deal with.  Probably slightly more labor intensive.  And tougher to make on a production level.  Not impossible, but not as easy as a 50/50.  I think that in itself accounts for why there is a smaller number of guys making them and the cult following.  Then the cool factor of having something different.  Never count that out.  

 

IN the end, if it holds the gun safe and secure and is easy to carry; that's what a holster is supposed to be.  

[JLSleather]

On the lighter side, I don't mind sayin' what I don't like the idear of 'appendix carry'.  Somethin' bout a gun pointed at my 'pendix' that i just kaint git useta

 

[Josh Ashman]

I know everybody is built different but it seems like the gun poking into your 'pendix' when you sat down would be pretty awkward too. Sure the kind of pistol you carry could make this better or worse, but at it's best it still seems awkward to me. 

[Red Cent]

I use a vacuum to mold the outer in making a pancake holster. I have found that I can "kick" the grip out when I mold and when sewed  tight will remain that way. And I can make the grip kick in to touch the body. By kick I mean rotate in or out. Not kick the grip in and the barrel comes out. It will depend upon the attitude of the gun positioned in the leather. First, I always elevate the gun about 1/2" with a thin piece of plastic under the gun. I also use "chocks" to get the right attitude/position that I want. Second, it depends heavily on a tight to the gun stitch. I always wet mold and make a gun fit rather than drop in.

[JLSleather]

On 4/21/2016 at 9:03 AM, Josh Ashman said:

With the machine I think it's easier to stitch them up 100% then form so they are closer to 50/50.

'50/50' or curved, I stitch them both on a machine before forming

 

[Dwight]

40 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

'50/50' or curved, I stitch them both on a machine before forming

 

'50/50' or curved, I form them both, then stitch them, . . . funny thing is, . . . both ways work.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Dwight

[JLSleather]

Yep.  My  buddy Robert made holsters for 10 years before he ever used a pattern 

 

[malabar]

On 4/20/2016 at 9:37 AM, JLSleather said:

Stumbled across this picture on the web somewhere.. guy claiming that one is thicker than the other and thus his was "better".  In under a minute, let me show you why it doesn't matter

Here's the picture.  

Somebody was claiming that the one on the right was somehow "thinner" and thus "more concealable" (and it's debated on a number of gun  forums).  BUT ...

In both 'versions', the gun is the same thickness.  And there are two layers of leather, one front and one back.  And that's it.  The gun thickness plus two layers of leather, is the same either way.  While they can be made to RIDE differently, just changing which piece gets the molding will obviously NOT change the thickness of the holster.

When worn, there could be a little air space between teh wearer and the holster, especially close to the firearm.  But the holster where the gun is will be against the hip (in both cases) and the thickness is the same, so they protrude the same amount.

So what's the point?  Molding in the front panel, or molding both panels to the middle, SAME thickness.

 

Absolutely right.

The difference is the way the holster behaves.  The flat-backed holster maintains its shape better, will be more comfortable, and has better reholstering.

[Dorado]

I've heard that where the backing and the front meet makes a difference in shoulder holsters. 50/50 being more desirable. But I see little advantage to one or the other for an OWB holster in actual use. I could see that the left one would be more comfortable and possibly less likely to collapse when empty. The right one could possibly hold it tighter to the body by making the front slightly smaller. Still, I think it's six of one, and half-dozen of the other.

[JLSleather]

1 hour ago, Dorado said:

Still, I think it's six of one, and half-dozen of the other.

Having made both, I can tell you they are not the same.  

[Dwight]

Yep, . . . what he ^^^^^ said, . . . a lot of things they might be, . . . but the ain't the same.

Double down on that if you are wearing it.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Dorado]

19 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Having made both, I can tell you they are not the same.  

I was meaning in personal opinion. You'll have proponents of both. It's down to personal taste and what the user perceives as better. Of course there'll be differences in the way they feel, and the way they'll operate. It's a matter of what works for the person, how they're carrying, what they're carrying, how they dress and various other variables. It's all subjective.

[Josh Ashman]

Yep, what he said. All subjective.