Budget starter machines

[Dave4]

This board gets a lot of threads where newbies ask about budget vintage light-leather starter machines or budget vintage WF machines.  I'm one of them!

With so many machines on the planet, knowing what to look for is half the battle.  Especially for newbs!

If I've learned one thing here already, it's that this board has a lot of folks who know models and specs and capabilities of sewing machines!

It'd be great to have a list assembled in one place of viable budget starter leather machines with relevant info and comments for each.  Perhaps two classes:  Non-WF models that can be made to work, and purpose-built WF Models that sometimes pop up at lower price levels.  A few possible examples: 15-91, 31-15, old Japanese makes, etc.  WF's - 111', etc, etc.  

Non-WF models: Brand & Model, Years Made, Type and Thickness of leather that can be sewn, Even-feed or WF available?, expected Clearance Loss from installed WF, Clutch-Motor?, Servo-Motor adaptable?, Needle Size range, Thread Size range, expected Price to pay at a garage or estate sale, expected Cost for Modifications (WF, Servo, etc), Comments on duty-level, Top-3 Items to check when first looking at the machine, SPM Comments, Other Comments.

Older WF models: Brand & Model, Years Made, Type and Thickness of leather that can be sewn, Feed Type, Clutch-Motor?, Servo-Motor adaptable?, Needle Size range, Thread Size range, SPM Comments, expected Price to pay at a garage or estate sale, Other Comments, Top-3 Items to check when first looking at the machine.

Let's limit the total expected machine cost to a range of $100 to $600, including mods.  Let's exclude the TuffSew genre.

If the membership is willing, fire away!  I'll compose and maintain a pdf chart of the info provided, and link it right here on this post.  

Also, please suggest changes or additions to my spec list.  It was compiled by a newb!

We will assume that machine buyers will take responsibility for learning about required maintenance & lubrication after purchase, and will start new threads to ask about parts or repairs.  

Thanks.  All input or feedback is welcome!

SewRev1.pdf

[mikesc]

Price depends entirely on where each member is, ( used machines in Europe can cost 2 to 3 times the US price, likewise new machines ) better not to restrict price to $100 to $600..if you do restrict it to that price range, the thread, list and pdf will only be of any real relevance / interest to US members..

Edited June 5, 2016 by mikesc

[Colt W Knight]

I paid for $ 400 for my Consew 206 rb-1, then upgraded to a servo motor total cost with new needles around $550

Flat Bed

Reverse

Sews 3/8"

Up to #138 thread, Ive read that it will sew 206, but I can't get mine to do it.

Ive used up to #25 leather point needles

~4.3 SPI is as large as it will go, but it prefers 5-6 SPI

M size bobbin

Edited June 5, 2016 by Colt W Knight
picture

[brmax]

I think your on to something there, as the general search I typed in "budget machines" and 16 pages popped up with 391 results and so glancing over the 1st page I recall 211, 1341, 545, 441 and more so this chart will surely expedite a grouping you could say.

But I will say we may very well miss a great deal of historical education, and the need to offer another form of self generated experience.

As many things we do in the movement towards the goal, the sometimes unknowns on the path result in a better understanding in further steps.

In ways of efficient selection in a professional world we make choices of "new" because many older things have been proven and redesigned in so many ways to be easier and within new materials.

It should be drilled that though very good machines of design each may need professional work in basic and could also be at a cost. These cost are most likely first talents of interest and pursued towards professional trained techniques gained at cost and time. This can be seen as another very important and in the same feeling from the Old School and termed experience matters.

Good day and lets enjoy this what you started, thanks Dave

Floyd

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

A decent condition walking foot machine can usually be found for sale by the owner in the $600 to $800 range. Check your local and nearby Craigslist, under Sewing Machines > Business. But, they are usually upholstery machines with clutch motors and 1:1 pulleys. You will probably have to change to a 2" motor pulley and a 2" shorter v-belt, or buy a new servo motor with a 50mm pulley and matching shorter belt. This will drive your cost up by about $150 or $160. At this point you are better off buying a brand new Consew P-1206RB.

[mikesc]

My 211U166a ( WF compound feed )<= 'cos there is top and bottom feed sometimes also called ( WF)   and WF compound feed <= the best ..was advertised at €450.00 ( about $600.00 ) normally here in France they go for €700.00 to €1200.00 ( about $900.00 to $1500.00 ..and that is used ! )..I "haggled" and paid cash €350.00 ( about $450.00 ish ) came with a clutch motor, I built a 5:1 speed reducer..sews 8 to 9mm of veg tan easy..runs upto 138 thread, might run 207 , but I figure it wouldn't run it for long before something expensive broke..so I don't make it do what it wasn't built to handle easily..

 

My Juki DLU 490-4 came with an  older EFKA clutch motor with EPS..is not normally suited for leather ( it is a high speed, oil bath, garment machine ), it is sometimes described as WF ( but is actually top and bottom differential feed ) no needle feed..can be sued fro leather ( it will punch through 8 to 9mm veg tan ) but it wasn't designed to run slow or to go around corners, but for heavy tarps and canvas it is ideal ( thanks again to Eric "gottaknow" for pointing me to a manual for the differential feed system ) , bought it from someone who had no idea what it was or how to use an industrial machine, paid her around $150.00 , she was very eager to take the money, for her it was a "boat anchor"..it ran, but had not been looked after correctly.

 

I also have a 29K51 patcher, paid about the same as the Juki , needs a restore when I have the time, runs OK though.

Have a semi domestic Kachiran 4048D..superb for light leather , lambskin, goatskin etc up to about 4 to 5oz total..goes for €650.00 to €800.00, I bought mine used , but with a 10 year guarantee still to run, for half that lower price, owner had no idea how to use it, have seen them go on ebay in the UK for about what I paid for mine..and also for much more..

Last Friday bought A Singer 15K88 treadle ( with drop feed and reverse , it is clean, runs smooth, I'll strip and clean and oil etc it anyway ) for freehand embroidery on lambskin, Darren mentioned them as good for embroidery, I watched few Youtube videos about them, especially Marilyn Lee's work, drove 100kms each way and bought one the next day..Paid €50.00..

Today, Sunday, someone is advertising another 15K treadle ( without the drop feed, or the reverse ) at less than 1Km from me, it looks clean, sews, and they want only €20.00 .no real use to me ( can't drop the feed dogs , but could cover them for embroidery )..that is cheap..usual price here is more like €100.00..a 15K can run lambskin and light garment leather..and Singer made millions of them..

Edited June 5, 2016 by mikesc

[mikesc]

The new Consew that Wiz mentioned would be at least twice that price here in France, if one could find one, and would probably involve driving at least 500kms each way to see one..and I've commented in other thread about the non existent French after sales services.."once the machine is out the door and the cash banked or the cheque cashed, the customer is forgotten"..and the price of spares..Oi!!!..<= applies to all brands, all dealers here..:( ..every and any dispute , even getting them to respect legal guarantees, has to go to court, at the customers cost, with lawyers, in the area where the dealer is based..

[MADMAX22]

3 hours ago, mikesc said:

The new Consew that Wiz mentioned would be at least twice that price here in France, if one could find one, and would probably involve driving at least 500kms each way to see one..and I've commented in other thread about the non existent French after sales services.."once the machine is out the door and the cash banked or the cheque cashed, the customer is forgotten"..and the price of spares..Oi!!!..<= applies to all brands, all dealers here..:( ..every and any dispute , even getting them to respect legal guarantees, has to go to court, at the customers cost, with lawyers, in the area where the dealer is based..

Have you talked to anyone in the states about shipping you one? Even if shipping saved you a quarter of the price the support you could get would be much better even if you have to wake up early to get ahold of someone. 

[Dave4]

Hey - thanks for the replies!  I can include international prices whenever they are provided.  So far Mike, it looks like all your machines were less than $600.

brmax, i see your point & thanks for the feedback.  If I buy a machine, I intend to use the board and other resources to learn about it.  I don't think a shopping list for newbs will interfere with the learning process of those who still wish to learn.  

4-yr old thread: http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/40710-fabric-sewing-machines-for-leather/ : Sylvia sews 4oz with an easy feed on a Brother; Cheryl 15-91, CowboyBob praises 15-91 and 31-15, Nick 201K, Spinner Husky 315, Anne mentions 15's, pfaff 30's, 1950's Jap, Art says 15, 31, 201, 66, 301, and a few others will work fine for lite duty up to 10oz of chrome or soft handed veg sewing with up to 45 and sometimes 69 thread, Wiz talks 15-91, Hooligan echos +201.

7-yr old thread: http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/20945-singer-201/ : guy asks about a 201, Art says NO!, Wiz recommends $1000+ rigs, guys asks about budget machines, Wiz sez 111, Art says "There are literally 100s of posts on this very subject on this forum.", Wiz writes an excellent essay, Particle says 'We need a sticky because these are very common questions', etc.  

So people have been asking the same questions here for at least 7 yrs.

And lots of people have been buying various old-iron machines at yard sales for $100 and dropping another $200 into them and then sewing their butts off on garment or upholstery leather and making cool stuff and never thinking of spending $1500 on a machine.    

That's what I'm after.  As a newb, I have no idea what to look for on craigslist or at yardsales.  No newb does, but they always ask.  

Let's make a list!

What are the 1950's Jap machines?  What brand, what model, what color, what size, what the heck are they?  

What's a 15, 30, 201, 111, 211?

What's a 78-3?

What's a 144WSV33? 

145W103?

Which pfaff's?  What are they?  

What else is out there in old iron that can be used for light-leather?  

What are the big ol WF industrials to keep your lucky eye peeled for?

Take your time.  Pick one machine, spec it out, I'll add it to the list.  Wait a week, do another.  

Colt - thanks for a great start!  SPM, not spi.  How fast are you running it?

Thanks everyone!

The spreadsheet link is at the bottom of the OP.  Just click the link.  

 

 

[mikesc]

Quote

So far Mike, it looks like all your machines were less than $600.

I was lucky / good at haggling Guy in the UK in a recent thread was looking at, and asking questions about a 211U166 in UK ebay at £599.00, which is below the usual price I've seen them at there or here..

[Wizcrafts]

Dave4;

I know this can be a confusing topic. Sewing machines have so many different designs and capabilities. I started sewing leather in 1984. It started with just a vest, which was a challenges in itself, due to topstitched fringes and thick seams from the 5 ounce leather I used. I tried three different sewing machines before finding the right one. Then I decided to try sewing belts, then other items that pushed the limits of the machines I had. This led to more heavier sewing machines, some of which didn't pan out, despite their size. In fact, I still go after sewing machines when one presents itself as different and is affordable.

The old iron Singer sewing machines of yesteryear were built to last a century and then some. I have a rack in from of my leather shop and it has 6 old machines for sale; two of which are aluminum bodied and the rest cast iron. I have rebuilt them and test sew each one with 4-5 ounce leather or suede. One in particular, a 1902 Singer 27, has sewn into 8 ounces of bridle leather with #69 bonded thread. It is a small piece from my scrap drawer and I used it to demo the machine. The customer was amazed, but didn't buy the machine. Go figure.

When it comes to golden oldies, here's what I've found.

• The models with built in motors are to be avoided. They have only the torque left in that pod motor and cannot be ramped up. Overloading them with tough leather makes the motor groan and it starts smelling bad.
• Models with external motors can be refitted with a 1 or 1.5 amp motor that can punch through leather without bogging down or smoking.
• The old bullet shuttle 27 types stay in time under load and can sew a little thicker.
• Almost all these machines max out at 5 stitches to the inch, with most giving only 6 or 7 (a Model 66).
• None can handle over #69 bonded thread, with some refusing to handle even that.
• None can sew over 1/4 inch of material effectively. Most are lucky to sew 3/16 inch of cloth.
• They don't do a good job of transporting leather, except for suede or veg-tan with a rough flesh side. All feed is on the bottom.
• Domestic sewing machines have fairly weak tension and pressure springs. The pressure spring over the presser foot sometimes has to be cranked down almost all the way to hold down veg-tan leather belts as the needle rises. If the leather lifts with the needle, there are skipped stitches.
• Increasing the pressure on the foot makes it harder to feed some leathers. People often use a Teflon foot in these situation.
• Teflon feet are deep top to bottom and take away from the usable sewing clearance. If you forget what the foot is made of and drop it down onto the feed dogs, the teeth leave a lasting impression.
• The so called walking foot, or even feed attachments are useless on most leathers, other than garment leather. they basically only follow the top layer, without any feed action of their own. They also take away from the clearance under the foot.

These are some of the things I have learned about the old domestic sewing machines. They are nice to look at and collectors love them. But, when it comes to sewing leather for a living, they cannot be trusted and cannot be tweaked to exceed their physical limitations.

Bottom line: if you are going to sew leather things and get paid, buy a proper leather sewing machine. There are lots of dealers representing our forum, either with banner ads, or simply with their freely givin technical advice. Call them and pose your questions. Most will tell you which machine types will handle your anticipated projects without being at their limits all the time. Some may be too heavy duty for light work and thin thread. There is no all in one sews it all machine that handles from a couple ounces to 3/4 inch, with thread sizes 69 through 415, that doesn't require a lot of readjustment to go between those extremes. Heavy 441 clones are not so good under 6 ounces and may actually eat thin soft leather. Straight stitch industrial machines max out at 1/4 inch or less. Only the heavy duty machines made for upholstery, tents, harness, and webbing are capable of sewing holsters and sheathes, using big needles and thick thread.

I hope this helps!

[Tulsaman]

From what I've read the Vertical hook machine in the 226 or 111w etc. are a stronger machine then the newer 206, etc  horizontal hooks... I'm not talking about any other classes just these... I wonder what that is about? I know the horizontals' are less money to buy...new any way.. I've always bought vertical hooks to be sure of no issues. 

[graywolf]

On 6/5/2016 at 8:51 PM, MADMAX22 said:

Have you talked to anyone in the states about shipping you one? Even if shipping saved you a quarter of the price the support you could get would be much better even if you have to wake up early to get ahold of someone. 

I sometimes wonder what people are thinking support is? Talking to someone on the telephone? Sending the the machine back to have it repaired? If the first, there are folks who did not even sell you the machine that are happy to provide it. If the second, international shipping would be ridiculous, and even if you are here in the US it may not be worthwhile $225 each way x 3 adds $650 to the price of the machine.

Now, it may be worthwhile using a particular dealer who will set the machine up for your particular use. But, the fact he is a nice guy 800 miles away is not going to get you much in the way of physical after sales support.

Ideally, you ought o buy from a great dealer within a hour of you, but a lot of us do not have that choice. So the next best, seems to me, is to buy from the cheapest delivered, reputable source.

[MADMAX22]

True Greywolf, I was just saying if the machines are rediculously expensive that it is worth looking into the initial cost of ownership by having one shipped out. I have no idea of the shipping charges so it would be something the OP would have to look into. 

I agree its nice to have physical support when available but even here in the states that is difficult. The closest physical person that sells a 441 clone in my case is well over 1000 miles away. I depend  entirely on phone or forum support to resolve my issues. I would have spent more money to buy locally if one was available at the time but no such luck and to have one of the "seattle" shops order one of these machines basically would have been difficult/lack knowledgeable support/ and cost an arm and a leg.  

[dikman]

Dave, it's a great idea but I wonder if you realise just how big a job compiling this list this would be? Singer alone has a huge number of models, not all of which have information available (you mentioned an SV model, they made an awful lot of SV models but no-one appears to know exactly what the SV models are). For your idea to work it really needs to be a searchable database, and that is starting to get complex.

[Tejas]

I agree that the task is rather large. However, were you to decide to make such a list or database, as a starting point for the format attached are pdf and spreadsheet versions made for comparing some cylinder arm machines.

Cylinder Head.xlsx

Cylinder Head.pdf

BTW, the information came form different sources and might not all be accurate.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Tejas

[Northmount]

4 hours ago, Tejas said:

I agree that the task is rather large. However, were you to decide to make such a list or database, as a starting point for the format attached are pdf and spreadsheet versions made for comparing some cylinder arm machines.

Cylinder Head.xlsx

Cylinder Head.pdf

BTW, the information came form different sources and might not all be accurate.

LOL  You might want to rename the files to Cylinder Arm!

Tom

 

[TeriYool]

Dave- what a great start!  Your spreadsheet is empty as far as models/brandsbut has a wealth of information as far as what to ask and what to look for. Thank you for compiling it!

What machine did you settle on?

[Yetibelle]

I understand it the frustration - making a list is a good idea.  With Singer Machines the model number starts with the machine class, then the factory, then the subclass.  So a Singer 111w155 the class is 111 the "w" (typically refers to the Singer factory it was made in) and the subclass is the 155.  The   When you see "SV" in a Singer model number it refers to "special variant".  So it is a special machine within the subclass.  To get the complete history on the machine you also need the Singer Serial number.  That will also denote the factory and year the machine was made in.  I don't think one factory or model was better than the other. What makes an antique Singer Machine good or bad is how well it was maintained over the last 100 years. Below are some answers to your questions.  The old machines are great fun.    

What's a 15, 30, 201, 111, 211?

Singer Class 15-91 is home machine still a tank but not a walking foot.  very common machine about $100-300

Singer 201-X bigger version of the 15-91 also tough but still a home machine also about $100-300

Singer class 111-XXX - great medium weight machine single needle walking foot $300-800

What's a 78-3? - Singer machine medium weight leather and canvas about $300-600 in working order

What's a 144WSV33?  The 144-XXX is a heavy canvas and leather machine with long throat for easy turning projects

145W103? similar to the 144 but with 2 needle system

Which pfaff's?  What are they?  Pfaff, Duerkopp Adler are both German sewing machine companies

What else is out there in old iron that can be used for light-leather?  

Singer 29k - shoe patch (but can do other stuff) great medium weight treadle machines. $400-800

Singer Class 7-XX machines - larger heavy leather machine $1000-2500

Singer 97-10 HUGE machine sews $3000-8000 don't see them that often

 

[dikman]

As I mentioned earlier, the "SV" models appear to be a very big unknown. I have thus far been unable to find any paperwork for these models or to determine why they even made them, such is the complete lack of information concerning them. In my case I have a 111WSV77. As far as I can determine by looking at the parts list and manuals for various 111-class machines it appears to match up with a 111W153 (there are no differences that I can find) BUT none of the part numbers on the machine match the part numbers for the 151, 2, 3 or 5.

I suppose I should add that it only cost me $150 Australian . The table was useless and it was powered by what looked like an old washing machine motor (!) but I consider it well worth the money just for the head unit.

 

Edited August 27, 2016 by dikman

[GPaudler]

I like the way you framed your question and here's my answer to what I think you asked:

In 1980 I bought a Necchi Nora at a pawn shop in Pensacola for $50. I used it to make my living doing marine canvas work - awnings, Biminis, dodgers, upholstery, etc. It sews garment-weight leather just fine, does zig-zag, which I use all the time, and a bunch of decorative stitches with cams, that I've never used. It will sew through as many layers of nylon webbing as you can jam under the presser foot. I've rarely used any thread lighter than 69. It's a simple drop-feed and it has never even needed to be re-timed! Not one repair or adjustment in 36 years of hard use. I even use it with the zig-zag length shortened to sew eye splices in 7mm polyester double-braid rope that are as strong as the rope's 2,100 lb. rated strength. They are much more expensive these days, sometimes over $100.

I have a Pfaff 335 compound-feed cylinder bed machine, 2 Brother TZ1-B652s, a Singer 29-4 and an Adler 105, all industrial machines with more power, thread size capability and foot lift than the little, portable Necchi, and I'm crazy about each of them, but for anybody just learning the craft, not holsters, saddles or harnesses, I'm happy to recommend something like the Necchi, even if you outgrow it in 6 months. Everything about it makes me happy.

Gary

[makitmama]

I have a background in textile work, and learned to machine sew on my gran's singer 15 treadle and electric 201. I have both these machines, and about 50 other vintage machines. I am nuts about class 15 japanese clones(same basic mechanism as the singer 15, readily available parts, great casting, etc). I have several machines built by toyota in the 1950's that are workhorses.

To effectively sew with a vintage singer 15 or clone, you are going to need a 1 to 1.5 amp motor. A walking foot doesn't hurt. However, you are still limited to size 69 thread. I prefer to use thread lube if I am going to be sewing a lot of long runs.

I also have a Pfaff 130, which can use a slightly larger thread. Limitation is still about 5 oz of leather total. So if you want a bunch of various machine specs, let me know...

 

[GPaudler]

I hadn't tried so thought I'd see what the little Necchi could do in leather. Here's three layers of veg tanned leather totaling an honest 1/4" thickness sewn with 69 thread and a probably too-big needle. I'd just used the same thread and needle to sew two layers of cotton flannel with the same tensions. About 6-1/2 stitches per inch are as long as the machine will sew. 

Then I sewed a line with the Adler 105, 346 thread, 3-1/2 stitches per inch.

Edited September 2, 2016 by GPaudler

[chrisash]

I think the OP has a great idea

The trouble is that the experienced people tend to be doing jobs that demand a "Proper machine" where as the newbie is just looking for a cheap solution to make the more basic items be it wallets or tote bags and the like

Good advice is buy the best you can afford; but that severely limits what a newbie can but as a selection of tools, so buying cheap tools may be seen as a better option to start with , see if you like the hobby and then as skills grow buy better tools when you understand what you need

Does not the same thing apply to sewing machines and cheap hand cranked 99 or 201 may well fit the bill and get used far more than a heavy duty beast that eat's double 5mm veg tan.

From following this forum for a few months now, I imagine but have no facts to prove it, that Europeans tend to use lighter weight veg tan to the states probably considering 3mm to be thick and 1 to 2 mm the norm. As I said no proof just looking at what people show on the forum

[justingschneider]

http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/model-list/classes-200-299.html

 

here is a good guide for all the singer sewing machines. lets you know what they are and what they are made for.