Singer "SV" machines

[jimi]

Thanks for the bulletin folker, very interesting... never thought it was a needle feed????

as for the 34k?? that seems to be fit for another topic on its own?. i have seen these for sale several times and they seem to have an array of heads. it looks as if they have used 16k,17k and 45k heads on this class of machine. so with so many different heads to this class how can you possibly find the difference between a normal 34k (none seem to be normal) and an SV one??? 

[Constabulary]

34K11 is the heavier one with a 45K head and larger hook - approx same as the Adler Class 6. The other 34K´s I have seen have smaller / lighter heads like Singer Class 17 or 16. My 34KSV5, the before pictured 34KSV4 and a 34KSV6 I know of have an additional "needle bar guide" on the front side but I have seen this on a 34K5 marked machine too (not SV) so I guess the 34KSV5 turned into a later standard 34K5 or SV´s have some special accessories the 34K that came "off the shelf" do not have but thats all a guess.

Starts to become a bit confusing....

[dikman]

This got me curious (again) about my WSV77. I haven't used it much, but the other day, while sewing, I thought that the presser foot clearance didn't seem to be what I remembered. So I decided to adjust it, but just couldn't seem to get much clearance. Knowing lots more about Singers (and machines in general) now than I did when I bought it I started delving into what adjustments I could find. Low and behold I found a driving eccentric on the main shaft that was coupled to the presser foot lift. (I didn't realise what it was when I first got the machine). The adjustment looked like it was in a fair way, plus the screws were a bit loose, so I wondered if it had been slowly re-adjusting itself! Anyhow, I cranked it out to maximum, readjusted the needlebar/presser bar gap and checked the lift clearance - 3/8". I then checked the stitch length - 3 1/2 spi.

The specs for the 111W152 - 153 are 3/8" lift and 5 spi, the 154 is 1/2" lift and 5 spi, the 155 is 1/2" lift and 3 1/2 spi, So I may have found the major difference with the WSV - it has the 3/8" lift of the 152 - 153 but the 3 1/2 spi of the 155 (although the numbers on the stitch wheel stop at 5 it goes to a measured 3 1/2 spi. I suspect that I can increase the foot clearance by readjusting the presser bar height but that would probably reduce the foot pressure on thin leather. I'm guessing that 3/8" is the nominal clearance for this machine.

[MADMAX22]

Question for you guys. I was curious on the singer badges on these machines I understand that the early years have the solid brass ones and 1951 and later they changed to a colored ring around the outside and then other changes later on. The earlier year badges with the spool of thread there seems to be a difference in some of them, I noticed on some the thread spool is larger and closer to the center part of the badge (not sure what that is in the center). Is this related to the date they were made or geographical area they were made or does it have nothing to do with anything. Maybe different ones for different size machines? 

Also was there a difference in years where they used the star type rivets, the star rivets with center post, and the solid round rivets.

Thanks for your input. I added a couple pictures to show the differences. 

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by MADMAX22

[mikesc]

I think the "thing" in the centre is a shuttle*..

*oscillating bobbin used before they went to revolving bobbins on most machines..you can't use those "shuttle" sort of machines for embroidery work..on domestic machines they began phasing them out during the 1920s or so I think..

I notice that the artwork on the top image is finer ( better detail ) and that they went through a partial name change MFG Co to MANFG CO ( note the large O in the latter , and the addition of the A and the  N..The design is changed to make the rivets miss the letters and the place is "lost"..nowadays such changes would be very costly in Whale song and joss sticks, and come at a six figure price..

 

There may also have been the input of "illuminati" ;)..or not..

Edited September 3, 2016 by mikesc

[MADMAX22]

Just trying to figure out some ways to estimate production years for 'W' serial number machines. Thinking if there was changes to the original style badge that we could narrow down the dates of the machines a little bit. 

Here is another example which has the big spool and the same lettering as the small spool one but also has the twist details in the thread. 

Edited September 3, 2016 by MADMAX22

[MADMAX22]

Well forgot about this site http://needlebar.org/nbwiki/index.php/Singer_Logo_Timeline

Looks like the MANFG CO and MAN CO NY were registered at the same time (1875). The silver badges were 1930 but looks like kept the same large thread spool. 

I have been looking at serial numbers and dates from random pictures of machines I have scene online (non W versions) and it looks like the small spool starts somewhere in either late 30s or early 40s (earliest one I have found was 1942 so far). With exception of the "Texas" badge, the badges changed to the colored rim type in 1951 (as early as 1947 I think because of the production date and sold date, some were made before the centennial year in order to be sold in 1951 from what I have read). 

Sooo theoretically depending if your 'W' machine has the badge still on it and its original you could narrow down the date of manufacture to a 10 year or so window. Still wanna look and find more  serial numbers off of machines with badges to see what the earliest small spool badge I can find is dated. 

 

Or I could end up being full of hot air.

Also not sure if I am derailing this thread or not, figured finding out a way to date the W machines would be related but feel free mods to move my post or delete or I could just start a new thread. 

Edited September 3, 2016 by MADMAX22

[LumpenDoodle2]

The badge might help in dating, but Singer also had a habit (at least at Kilbowie) of mass producing stuff, then popping the excess in a warehouse, and using it up as and when.

That could sometimes mean that if a special was needed, they would have a rake around their shelves.    So the body could be from one run year, and some of the innards from another.    

I can just imagine an order for SV machines getting the finishing touches, and someone grabbing a handful of spare badges off a dusty shelf.  

[MADMAX22]

Good info thanks Doodle. Its probably not even worth looking into but Ive been on grave shift (2300-0700) for the last few nights without anyone else in the office and practically nothing to do except find the end of the internet, repeatedly.

[LumpenDoodle2]

That's why the gods invented the interweb :-().    Cool way to wander through time.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LumpenDoodle2

[Constabulary]

I also think the dates list on ISMACS represent the casting date and not the actual machine production date. But that's a guess - of course. Back in the days I don´t think they have even thought a bout "Just in Time" production and logistics and had huge storage sheds and probably produced machines on demand - of course not just one machine at a time but also not necessarily when they did the casting. I don´t think they put the # on the casting when they have assembled the machine - I doubt that. But who knows - lots of speculations...

[Constabulary]

What have you seen at the end of the internet?

Maybe Isaac Merritt Singer sits there and says:  "Now that you have found me I tell you that I have fooled you all" 

[MADMAX22]

Haha I wish, didn't find nothing yet. Atleast for the first few weeks we had stuff to do and other people in the office. Now we have a week or so of required manning for that " just in case" scenario. Probably the easiest money Ive ever made but jeez it gets down right boring. Now if I could do some leatherwork while I was up here it wouldn't be bad at all.

[mikesc]

You could braid whips..to while away the hours..also would do wonders for your reputation at work

[dikman]

Madmax, I don't think you're derailing the thread. My idea was to have a single thread about the SV machines so that someone who acquires one (or wants to know about the SV designation) could hopefully find, in one place, the sum total of knowledge about just what that designation means (and then realise how little is known about them!). I too wondered about using serial numbers, but given the lack of records for W machines, the fact that no-one is really certain just how SV machines fit into Singer's timeline and the huge number of models and sub-classes that Singer made I figured it probably wouldn't work.

Plus what Lumendoodle and Constabulary said makes sense - they probably just had huge inventories and grabbed what they needed to make something up.

[Constabulary]

Found another SV on the web - Singer 45KSV99

http://www.jomimachines.co.uk/shop/uncategorized/singer-45k-sv99-industrial-sewing-machine/

Looks like a standard 45k with reverse...

[MADMAX22]

Dikman I may be bugging you about your machine tomorrow, I am picking up a 111w155 that was suppose to be from WWII time period. I dont have the serial number yet but it has the same black model tag like yours. This is going to be my last machine purchase for a while. Its not a "SV" model. It is a "W" serial number though. 

I noticed on yours the oil cup (not sure what it is) on top above the tension assembly has a cap on it. Is that something that is just usually not on these models or is it something  that got lost very easily so you never see them? Just curious. 

This is a bad pic of the machine I am picking up if everything goes right. 

 

[dikman]

Madmax, that looks like it's in better condition than mine! No, there's no cap it's just an optical delusion caused by the camera angle. It looks just like yours, in fact from the front the machines look identical. The 155 is probably the pick of the bunch for leatherwork.

[jimi]

well that 45ksv99 looks no different from a normal 45k??? maybe it is just the reverse that makes it different??. and it has a normal hinged foot not the stepped one??? these SV machines are begining to be a pain in the ass!  

[Constabulary]

Just figured there were SV´s in 1913. Copied from ISMCS list:

F-

3705085

3706084

46KSV24

1000

January/June

1913

Clydebank, Scotland

So I think Singer always had SV´s of certain machines. Also found on needlebar.org

http://needlebar.org/cm/displayimage.php?pid=7758

Note the "formerly known as..."

So former SV´s machines became later standard machines. Maybe that was not always the case but at least some times.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Constabulary

[dikman]

39 minutes ago, Constabulary said:

So former SV´s machines became later standard machines. Maybe that was not always the case but at least some times.

 

 

Makes sense, or at least as much as anything can with these machines. If a "special" machine proved to be of worthwhile design it makes sense that it would be put into production. Of course, trying to figure out which SV became which model(s) could be a bit of a problem. Due to the records of the K factory surviving it may be possible to work out some of these, but the W machines will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do with any degree of certainty.

[MADMAX22]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 2:01 AM, dikman said:

Madmax, that looks like it's in better condition than mine! No, there's no cap it's just an optical delusion caused by the camera angle. It looks just like yours, in fact from the front the machines look identical. The 155 is probably the pick of the bunch for leatherwork.

Your not kidding, got this thing together, cleaned and oiled everything, replaced the belt, took out both sets of roller bearings and polished the races and cleaned everything up and wow does it sew nice. Pretty sure it hasn't had much sewing time on it. The needle gets down right toasty sewing thru some vegtan that I was playing with.

 

On topic I am gonna start tearing into my 153wsv11 next. Ill be posting some pics as well. Similar machine to the 111 and 211 but some differences since this is my first cylinder arm machine.

What is the best way to differentiate between the 153w103s and 104s and other subclasses of this machine. I understand the 102 is needle feed vs the compound feed of the others. The casting is a little different on the front of the head on the 100-102s and they don't have the exposed bar on the back like the 103/104s correct.

Is the only difference between the 103s and 104s the amount of lift of the pressure feet and the max stitch length.

Thanks.

[dikman]

Glad to hear the 155 is working. I can't help with the 153's as I don't know anything about them. My usual process is to download as many manuals/parts lists as I can find on the various models and then start looking for differences. That's how I came to the conclusion that my 111WSV77 is closest to a 111W153. I'll be interested in what you find out.

[MADMAX22]

Well got some pics of the 153WSV11. Got some serious cleaning and probably a few parts. 

So looks like it was once originally black all over, not sure if the factory painted it all black then shot the grey over. Its not a perfect paint job but theres no over spray anywhere. 

Of the part numbers I have scene so far it matches singers part list for a 153W103. Only modification I can see so far is that part machined out of the front of the head by the tension assembly. As far as I know anyways. 

Its an old machine for sure, most of the parts look similar to my 111 which is pretty old as well. 

 

[mikesc]

Nice machine* :)
Looks like someone repainted the top in "hammer paint" ( carefully masking of some parts and removing others )..hammer paint needs a special thinner / diluant to not run or sag or make fish eyes when sprayed, those that can be seen don't matter, as long as it runs cleanly and doesn't leave rust marks on the leather. Might be worth your while matching the base with grey hammer paint to the top..Now my urge to buy a cylinder arm is back again :)

*Also very nice clear photos, lots of detail :)

Edited September 12, 2016 by mikesc