Not responsible ..

[JLSleather]

Yet another one down in flames.  Thought I'd order some hardware - holster clips, paddles, screws -- so I signed up for yet another site (knife kits) only to get a message at checkout that they won't be responsible for lost packages.

This, apparently, has become the new norm.  I know I could call my credit card company and basically"break it off in 'em" over paying for something and not receiving it. My card company would charge back, and I'm guessing repeated instances would result in fraud charges.

Still, I'm just not doing business with people who do things that way -- just don't need the headaches.  One more place down... 

 

[TonyRV2]

This doesn't even make sense for a business to do seeing that companies like ups and fedex will insure deliveries.  

[JLSleather]

Yep, simple.  And I've asked about this in more than one place -- the response is they shouldn't have to pay for it.  I know most places add teh cost into either the shipping or the item price, and that is fine -- I expect to pay shipping charges.  But don't ask me to pay shipping charges, then tell me 'not our problem' if you don't get it.

I think there actually ARE merchants ignorant uneducated enough to think that they can actually get by with this (and they can, if you let them).  Most, though, I think are hoping you won't know your rights.

So, this topic not about bashing any one (or more) supplier, so much as about informing the buyer.  USE your card, and the protections built into it.  Good for you and your order, and good for all of us in the long run.

Strange enough, in this instance, the shipping was about $7.50, which I know is sufficient amount to send that small order priority mail, which would automatically be insured up to $50 (actually, mine are insured up to $100) just for using priority mail (no added charge).

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by JLSleather

[TomG]

I disagree with your blanket statement.  It is not that black and white.

If the package is insured, the shipper is responsible for recouping the value of the lost shipment.  In that case, yes.. the seller should replace the items at no charge. 

But if the buyer is offered insurance and declines it, that is their gamble and they take the hit. Once it is accepted by the shipper it is totally and completely out of your hands and control. While I sympathize with the buyer's loss, it is not my fault that it was lost. Why should I HAVE to take the hit.

Before you try to rip my head of... Personally, I will, in general, make the order over and ship it. But, don't tell me I have to if they have declined the minimal cost of insurance.

And NO.. I do not and will not include the shipping costs into the item price. It's too bulky and unwieldy to manage with a wide range of products and destinations. Especially international.  $8 to Canada, $16 to UK and $23 to Australia. 

I put the weight into the shopping system and let the customer choose how they want it shipped and if they want insurance. I add $1 to cover the cost of the envelope/box and the system adds the exact cost of the postage in.

 

 

[MADMAX22]

Could have told you to stay away from that place anyways. Its like the tandy of knife making stores. 

Typical for any company to be large enough to have bean counters, once they are that large the individual customer can piss off.

[JLSleather]

Each person / business / supplier does things their own way   For me personally, if I pay for something but I don't receive it, they'll hear from me.  If that doesn't work, they'll hear from VISA.  If in the end they wish to involve lawyers, I'm okay with that too I suppose... just seems easier to order from someone NOT intent on telling me that my hard-earned money just went into a crap shoot and I may or may not get what I paid for.

I mean, if there's "nothing wrong with it", then why do you never see it stated that way?  What they mean is you send me money, hoping to get this here thingie, but that may or may not actually happen.  So why do NONE of them say that?

I've done pretty well with the post office.. only one misplaced package in the last 10 years, and two total in over 20 years.  One package they found and got it back on the right path.  The other was destroyed, and they paid me for it in full.  So, no complaints there.

But if a package I sent goes missing, or damaged, I don't see where it's the buyers "problem".  Shipping insurance is for the benefit of the SELLER, actually.  I haven't read the civil code for every state -- and I don't intend to --- but I think you'll find something to the effect of a contract not being enforceable if it contains clauses which are not otherwise legal (this is why you see paragraphs included about "severability").  Someone cannot legally "agree" that they understand they may get nothing.  if I order something, I will get either my money or my purchase.  But that's just me.

 

Thanks Madmaxx... new place for me... searching for different styles of clips.

 

[MADMAX22]

Assume your looking for better clips for the 380 laser holster you were working on? 

Did you try contacting Paul Long, he had some nice looking clips at a fair price but not sure if they are wide/strong enough for a holster. 

Maybe theclip.com 

Edited December 2, 2016 by MADMAX22

[JLSleather]

Yeah, I been snoopin'.  Price for those things is all over the map -- I saw the same clip on a dozen sites from 75¢ each to $6.00 each!  

That little S/W, she wants to be able to use it without a belt, so I could go with a clip (if there's one that will fit) or even a paddle (which would be easier to arrange).  Opened my mouth and said i'd do it, so I'll do it - one way or another

 

[JLSleather]

9 hours ago, TomG said:

Why should I HAVE to take the hit.

Because the shipper is acting as your agent.  Though not an "employee" by legal definition, they are - though temporarily - working for you.

When a contractor uses a subcontractor (who is by legal definition not an "employee", and that subcontractor causes damage (destruction, delay, whatever) does anybody believe that the original contractor isn't responsible?  Of course he is.  Now, he may seek reimbursement for his damages from the subcontractor he hired (just like I would from teh post office), but the person getting teh work done is coming after the contractor they hired, not anybody who he paid to help get the job done.

If anyone really believes that this is reasonable, try mailing the mortgage payment.  If for some reason the bank doesn't get it, just tell the bank that's too bad... I mailed it, it's out of my hands, so too bad / so sad for you. Good luck with that.  

For me personally, I was willing to pay for shipping (even though I knew that was more than twice what the shipping should cost).  But I dont' want to hear somebody ask me to insure a package twice (priority insurance, plus some other "insurance").  And I certainly aint gonna listen to somebody tell me that I may or may not get my order ....  I just clicked on out, and that stuff can sit in that shopping cart forever.  Well, probably just till a while after I've moved and the email address is no longer valid and starts bouncing emails back to them ...

OH>. from teh other side of the coin, as a seller, if it happened once (it has, just not this year) I would just "take the hit".  If it happened with any regularity, I would assume I need to find and use a different method of shipment.

Edited December 2, 2016 by JLSleather

[Mark842]

10 hours ago, JLSleather said:

I've done pretty well with the post office.. only one misplaced package in the last 10 years, and two total in over 20 years.  One package they found and got it back on the right path.  The other was destroyed, and they paid me for it in full.  So, no complaints there.

Curious on your volume or if the postal service in my region are buffoons. I average 10-12 lost shipments a month. Biggest offenders seem to be the Salt Lake City Postal distribution center and Dallas/Ft Worth. They are the roach motel's of the postal service. Thinks check in and they never check out.

However, to the original subject. I agree. I never stick a buyer with a loss. they always get their item, with exception of one guy who had his package lost 3 times. He got a refund. If your running your business as it should be run you are insured for such losses either through your carrier or you self insure as I do.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

7 minutes ago, Mark842 said:

Curious on your volume or if the postal service in my region are buffoons. I average 10-12 lost shipments a month. Biggest offenders seem to be the Salt Lake City Postal distribution center and Dallas/Ft Worth. They are the roach motel's of the postal service. Thinks check in and they never check out.

It's not just your region.  They are the most overpaid, incompetent, lazy people as a whole that exist.  It didn't used to be that bad, but the last few years. . . Yeah, I have zero faith in the USPS.  I thought it was just MY region.

[JLSleather]

On 12/2/2016 at 7:41 AM, Mark842 said:

I average 10-12 lost shipments a month.

What is that in percentage?  If that's more than 5%, that would be a problem for me. I mean a problem I'd be inquiring about.

The things I make take a bit of time, so I don't ship hundreds of packages per month.  In fact, I don't receive hundreds per month either   

Every package is packed either by me or by someone who has been shown MY way BY me.  

• Shipped priority mail teh vast majority of the time, so already insured up to $50 just for using priority.  And I add insurance for those packages valued above that amount.
• Those times I'm sending holster blanks or belt blanks (no hours of labor involved) I sometimes ship 1st class mail, but still tracked (thus, if I know where it didn't go, at least I would know where it DID go).  The 1st class packages have not been misdirected either.  
• Those times I send sides, or partial sides, across the country I have usually used UPS.  No troubles there, either.  They did destroy a package with a forklift about 20 years ago, but they paid for the full amount of the goods AND returned it to me, so... nothing to complain about there.

So, insurance is added to a package BY ME.  Then IF something were to happen, I can just send the customer a replacement, file the claim for the 1st package, and everybody's happy.  Post office gets paid a second time, I get paid a second time, customer gets what they asked for .... simple.

The exception, of course, is those packages with low-value items.  Sane people would generally not put $3 shipping and $3 insurance on a $3 item.  Keep in mind, though ... that those $3 items are available in a bazzillion places on any day of the week -- so I just son't shop with the one who says I may or may not get what I'm paying for.

[Studio-N]

there is a solution but it is a pain in the butt.  If worried, the shipper could pay the extra dollar and do a signature required. that forces you or someone to be home and to sign for it 

thereby ensuring it is not 'lost'.  But that is an inconvience most people don't want.  or they could force you to pick it up at the post office. same pain in the butt.

[JLSleather]

I have them sign above $400, or if I remember right express mail requires a signature above $400.

But that generally isn't necessary.  Certainly there are people who steal packages after they are delivered.  But that is where the line goes... I can't be accountable for security at your house.  If your packages are tracked to your house, and then go missing from there, that would warrant a theft report, not a replacement from the supplier.

I do believe there are also people who will claim they didn't receive it, though they did, (though I haven't had it happen).  In that case I may replace the item - but only after collaborating with the post office (and if necessary, law enforcement).  Some people do seem to have an inflated sense of entitlement... the insurance company won't even pay me for things missing from the theft without a police report, so not sure why some think they can say "I didn't get it' and auto-get another...

But back to my point ... if someone pays for something, it's my responsibility to provide it, in the condition it was advertised.  Those who can't offer the same simple integrity, will have to sell to someone other than me.

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by JLSleather

[MADMAX22]

On 12/2/2016 at 5:52 AM, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

It's not just your region.  They are the most overpaid, incompetent, lazy people as a whole that exist.  It didn't used to be that bad, but the last few years. . . Yeah, I have zero faith in the USPS.  I thought it was just MY region.

Thats really weird, Ive had far less issues with them than anyone else. Not to mention with all the cuts made to the USPS the number of employees have dropped considerably. They may still make the same but fewer people doing the same job. In my area the main office has one checker now where there use to be 3. In 2000 they had 787'538 employees, 2015 it was 491'863 employees. 

Plus whats wrong with making a livable wage? Straight from the interwebs  USPS mail carriers reported an average annual salary of $51,390, as of May 2011 or an hourly wage of $24.71. Most mail carriers -- 80 percent -- earned between $19.46 and $27.27 per hour, and reported annual salaries ranging from $40,470 to $56,720.

Where minimum wage is around $15/hr, so someone that is handling "your" expensive items and private information and not just flipping your burgers or wrapping your burritos well seems like a fair wage to me. Than again maybe they should make $20k a year, maybe that would be better?

 

EDIT to add that its going to be a big disagreement on pay and other aspects of any government run entity. On one side ya may have some insurance company employee complaining about what USPS employees make while the insurance company rakes in a huge amount of cash because they are required by law, or the "farmer" who has land but hasnt produced a crop in years (or in some cases is actually dead) and still gets huge government subsidies. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by MADMAX22

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

3 hours ago, MADMAX22 said:

Thats really weird, Ive had far less issues with them than anyone else. Not to mention with all the cuts made to the USPS the number of employees have dropped considerably. They may still make the same but fewer people doing the same job. In my area the main office has one checker now where there use to be 3. In 2000 they had 787'538 employees, 2015 it was 491'863 employees. 

Plus whats wrong with making a livable wage? Straight from the interwebs  USPS mail carriers reported an average annual salary of $51,390, as of May 2011 or an hourly wage of $24.71. Most mail carriers -- 80 percent -- earned between $19.46 and $27.27 per hour, and reported annual salaries ranging from $40,470 to $56,720.

Where minimum wage is around $15/hr, so someone that is handling "your" expensive items and private information and not just flipping your burgers or wrapping your burritos well seems like a fair wage to me. Than again maybe they should make $20k a year, maybe that would be better?

 

EDIT to add that its going to be a big disagreement on pay and other aspects of any government run entity. On one side ya may have some insurance company employee complaining about what USPS employees make while the insurance company rakes in a huge amount of cash because they are required by law, or the "farmer" who has land but hasnt produced a crop in years (or in some cases is actually dead) and still gets huge government subsidies. 

I wouldn't HAVE a problem with them making what they make, IF they did their damn job!  Minimum wage is too much for someone that doesn't do their job, I don't care if they drive an armored car or flip burgers.  And BTW, minimum wage here is $8.55.  We used to have outstanding, dedicated postal workers at our little post office.  Now, they are a community joke.  And as you don't live in this community, I guess going off on me about them getting paid or not getting paid is a little uncalled for. Whatever. . .

[MADMAX22]

27 minutes ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

I wouldn't HAVE a problem with them making what they make, IF they did their damn job!  Minimum wage is too much for someone that doesn't do their job, I don't care if they drive an armored car or flip burgers.  And BTW, minimum wage here is $8.55.  We used to have outstanding, dedicated postal workers at our little post office.  Now, they are a community joke.  And as you don't live in this community, I guess going off on me about them getting paid or not getting paid is a little uncalled for. Whatever. . .

Yeah whatever lol. 

The ones in my community all work pretty hard atleast from what I can tell. Guess thats the price ya pay for living in some wonderful countryside. 

Oh and you said "They are the most overpaid, incompetent, lazy people as a whole that exist." so looked to me like you were grouping ALL postal workers together. Didnt realize you just meant at your local hub. 

[Mark842]

This conversation is making me wonder what services people are using with the USPS. 99% of my shipments are under 13 ounces so they are shipped 1st class package with delivery confirmation. To answer the percentage question, that is about 10%. It's driving me nuts! However, the only other shipping options cost 4-5 times more and with other carriers the delivery time drops from 2-3 biz days to 6-8. And frankly if the delivery service I get from UPS and FedEX match there service everywhere I'm less than impressed. I've had 6 deliveries of leather this year that were delivered to a wrong address. Each time the carriers delivery person claimed he delivered it to my business. Luckily I have a video security system that records all motion at the front door. Proved them wrong each time and after providing video that clearly showed customers coming and going all around the time the tracking showed delivery. Video showed everyone but their delivery person and the supposed thief. In each instance they sent the driver back to my business at which time they had a revelation that in fact they delivered my stuff somewhere else. So far I've been lucky, every package was recovered.

Just a little side plug for a product...may I highly recommend Ring video doorbells. The $200 I spent on that gizmo has saved me thousands.

[JLSleather]

Other delivery options?  

I can send out one holster in 1st class mail, about $3.  Add 45¢ (ish) for a sturdy box.  So, shipping + tracking (included with 1st class) $3.45

Or I can send it priority mail, costs $6.20.  No box to purchase, tracking included, PLUS insurance included, so still $6.20

So for $2.80, I have send a tracked, insured package.  Worth it to my peace of mind to spend that amount.  Still doesn't "guarantee" delivery, but in the even of a fail, I'm not out, and the customer is not out.  Not sure what "service" you're paying 5x for.

But when I shop, I don't mind paying that price.  Just don't tell me "you may not get it, in which case that's too bad" -- which IS what that little blurb on the web page equates to.  If you're billing me for priority mail, that INCLUDES insurance, so don't insult me by suggesting that I pay "insurance".

There is no guarantee with shipping.  Wait.. there is one --- if I pay money, and I don't get compensated (either my order or my money) the one or more who didn't supply what I asked for will be regretting saving $3 for a long time ...

BUT again... rather than subject myself to that ignorance... easier (and better) to just duck those people and order elsewhere ...

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by JLSleather

[Mark842]

On 12/4/2016 at 3:13 PM, JLSleather said:

Other delivery options?  

I can send out one holster in 1st class mail, about $3.  Add 45¢ (ish) for a sturdy box.  So, shipping + tracking (included with 1st class) $3.45

Or I can send it priority mail, costs $6.20.  No box to purchase, tracking included, PLUS insurance included, so still $6.20

So for $2.80, I have send a tracked, insured package.  Worth it to my peace of mind to spend that amount.  Still doesn't "guarantee" delivery, but in the even of a fail, I'm not out, and the customer is not out.  Not sure what "service" you're paying 5x for.

But when I shop, I don't mind paying that price.  Just don't tell me "you may not get it, in which case that's too bad" -- which IS what that little blurb on the web page equates to.  If you're billing me for priority mail, that INCLUDES insurance, so don't insult me by suggesting that I pay "insurance".

There is no guarantee with shipping.  Wait.. there is one --- if I pay money, and I don't get compensated (either my order or my money) the one or more who didn't supply what I asked for will be regretting saving $3 for a long time ...

BUT again... rather than subject myself to that ignorance... easier (and better) to just duck those people and order elsewhere ...

 

 I get a volume discount. The most expensive first class item I ship costs me $2.39 and I do have tracking on all my first class packages. You can get tracking for first class through the P.O. but you can elsewhere online for free. I ship in poly mailers purchased in bulk. They cost me .012 cents a piece. I insure in bulk using a third party insurer that plays no silly games on claims and last year the cost came out to just under 50 cents a package. While it may be worth it to you to pay the extra $2.80 a package, that would have cost me just shy of $48k in the last 12 months. Not to mention if I switched to box instead of a poly mailer it would put my shipping weight up 3-5 ounces and my postage cost up 20-40 cents per package. If tracking shows it was not delivered or if the buyer says it was damaged they pay immediately. No inspecting packages or other crap. Insuring through the postal service is a joke. Their rates are insane and filing a claim for damage is all but impossible and a major burden on the customer who has to take everything to their P.O. for inspection. That being said I've had two damaged packages last year out of just over 17000 shipments.

 So all that stuff is for items I sell that cost $100 or less. Items that cost $100+ all ship priority just so they have less time in the system to get lost. Items over $100 only account for about 2 % of my sales. I know you run a different business model and I respect that. I've seen you post about other sellers being the "King of $30 holsters". Well I'm the king of $30 products in my market but the reason they sell good is because they are good products. I have the ability to make high dollar custom products and years ago when I started it was about 75% of my business. Through the years though the cookie cutter products I was selling became more popular and got to the point where I could spend 8 hours a day making 60-70 $30 items or 1 $300-400 item. One pays the bills and employs 3 people and the other, not so much. I found its a lot easier to convince a bunch of people to spend $30 every day then it is to convince one to spend $500.

 All that being said, here is my rant for the day...International buyers that do not understand what customs duties are! I get so tired of the messages complaining that "insert their postal system name here" won't deliver their item till they pay $x amount. Why didn't I tell them about this extra shipping cost. Like I get the taxes from their country paid to me. That's all I need is to have to know the global tax code. Bad enough we will all be buying software in the next few years to collect and pay sales tax for every city in every state in the US if Uncle Sam gets their way. Ok, rant over.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Mark842

[JLSleather]

I think we're not talking about the same thing here.

What the next guy pays, or doesn't pay, for shipping charges is neither my business or my concern.  My question about percentage was rhetorical.. I was not looking for any answer - simply making a point.

But the original line of thought was (and currently is) where I should stand if I pay money but don't get what I ordered.  And the conclusion is, I don't order anywhere that suggests a possible problem before I've even ordered!   Whether they're charging me $7 or 7¢, I'll want what I paid for.

Different people do different things.   Not my forum, and I expect that some will like what I say, and some won't.  Again,..  

I don't employ anyone - haven't since 2005, and I won't in the future. I dont ask teh next guy what he charges, or why, because it's none of my business (plus, I dont honestly care).  When I'm thinking about redheads, I mean just girls.  Though I realize some have other interests, not my concern.  And so it is with $30 holsters.  I don't make them. Tomorrow, I'm going to not make them again.  I likely wouldn't hang out with the guy who does.  But it makes no difference to me if the next guy does.  Unless I were to buy one and the guy selling them was to suggest that my package was lost and that's "too bad", in which case we have a problem ...

 

[Mark842]

1 minute ago, JLSleather said:

I think we're not talking about the same thing here.

What the next guy pays, or doesn't pay, for shipping charges is neither my business or my concern.  My question about percentage was rhetorical.. I was not looking for any answer - simply making a point.

But the original line of thought was (and currently is) where I should stand if I pay money but don't get what I ordered.  And the conclusion is, I don't order anywhere that suggests a possible problem before I've even ordered!   Whether they're charging me $7 or 7¢, I'll want what I paid for.

Different people do different things.   Not my forum, and I expect that some will like what I say, and some won't.  Again,..  

I don't employ anyone - haven't since 2005, and I won't in the future. I dont ask teh next guy what he charges, or why, because it's none of my business (plus, I dont honestly care).  When I'm thinking about redheads, I mean just girls.  Though I realize some have other interests, not my concern.  And so it is with $30 holsters.  I don't make them. Tomorrow, I'm going to not make them again.  I likely wouldn't hang out with the guy who does.  But it makes no difference to me if the next guy does.  Unless I were to buy one and the guy selling them was to suggest that my package was lost and that's "too bad", in which case we have a problem ...

 

Yep, we are in agreement on that. Selling models aside, my customer always gets their item or their money. My exception is the same as yours. if tracking shows it was delivered to them and they say they didn't get it, they are S.O.L. as far as I'm concerned.