juki 441 Buying new Juki TSC 441 clone

[Diyer]

I am looking at upgrading from my Adler 105/64 to a unison feed machine, as I need to be able to have something that will deal with changes in thickness.

As I live in Portugal, I have some of the problems that others have voiced about dealer availability. Anything imported here from outside the EU attracts a 23% tax on the item plus postage, and often there is a 10% import duty to pay as well.So I will be buying within Europe, and have already contacted Sieck, Frank Brunner, and some others in the UK.My choice may well be between a well known make such as Hightex, but not set up for leather, or a less well known/regarded one such as Kingmax, which will be set up for leather.

PRICE VS QUALITY.

There is a huge difference in price between the genuine article, and the Chinese copy. As a retired engineer, I have always wondered where those cost savings have come from. Some will be the possibly artificial exchange rate, plus a lower labour cost. The rest will be "corner cutting"- lower or wider material specifications,lower tolerances on machining and finish specifications, plus more variability on heat treatment.(my pet hate- I cannot get sewing pins that do not either break or bend!!) Also eliminating or combining as many parts as possible will reduce manufacturing cost.

TECHIE STUFF

n my perusal of posts on this forum, I have found comments like "no timing marks" for clone machines. Is this really true for the Hightex (which is one of the makes I am looking at)?

For me this is a difficulty, as I will be doing my own maintenance, plus possibly having to do the setting up for sewing leather. I have downloaded both the Juki 441 manual and parts list (thanks to whomever put them up), and have looked closely at what is involved in doing the settings.I am pretty good mechanically, and do all my own machinery repairs, and have done the settings on my current machines successfully with the help of the appropriate manuals.

There are a number of components that have setting marks on them for the genuine Juki 441.Are any of them on the clones?

The parts in question are :- mainshaft, shuttle race body, and conrod eccentric cam.

How have people coped without those marks, other than trial and error, with many hours of sweat and frustration?Also, the settings in the manual are for the blanket stitch feed dog and foot, not the smooth leather ones.Is there going to be a difference-I did note that the manual states their settings are a "starting point".

What are peoples' experiences with "cheesy screws"? Which ones must be replaced with ones made of decent metal, or has the quality improved enough not to need this?Are the screw sizes REALLY  Imperial, not metric?

CONCLUSION

I suppose this is a "try to find out what I am letting myself in for", buying a clone 441, that may not be set up for sewing leather.

I am well aware of the potential learning curve that might be involved,(or not) but I prefer to have advance warning from those that have gone before- hence my questions. As I am a hobby leather worker, I cannot justifiy the extra cost of the genuine item, and used ones are in the hens teeth category, or silly money.(Unless someone knows different!)

[ZigZag]

I had the same problem buying a 441 in the UK. I have now ordered a Typical 441 and they have a central distribution centre for Europe.

http://www.typical-europe.com/en/sales-partners/

closest dealer to Portugal is either France or Morocco. Typical are a Chinese clone but seem to have a good reputation from the research I have done.

[mixmkr]

I would think you could make your own timing marks.  Not an issue really, I'd think.  Can't comment on Chinese clones though.  I'd be just as concerned about what to do, should the machine have issues.  Who would be responsible.  The value or a trusted dealer is definitely worth some $$

[dikman]

I can't comment on the 441 other than to say that from what I have learned from this forum I wouldn't have any qualms about buying a clone if one came along at the right price. I don't see where the possible lack of timing marks should be an issue, given that you are obviously mechanically capable - between the manuals and this forum you shouldn't have too many problems. Given where you're located I'd say the chances are pretty high that any machine you buy may need to be tweaked to suit what you want to sew, but again that's no big deal, in fact it's a good idea to learn how to do this.

So don't worry unnecessarily, just get into it and enjoy yourself (before I joined this forum a couple of years ago I couldn't even understand the complexities of a domestic machine - probably because I hadn't needed to, I suppose - but look at me now, I think nothing of getting stuck into industrial machines in order to try and get them to do what I want ).

[MADMAX22]

Hahahahaha thats funny dikman, manuals ahahahahaha, have you scene the manuals that come with the clones? 

 

OP if ya have the money get the real thing. If ya dont get a clone. 

One word of advice, if you get it from a dealer over there make them prove it will backstitch in the same holes. If they dont good luck getting it to. 

[Uwe]

For the 441 class machines, the original Juki TSC-441 Engineer's Manual (Juki 441 Engineers Manual.pdf) manual is your best option.

I see two references to alignment marks in the manual, both refer to the same area:

 

Unfortunately, my Cowboy 4500 (a Juki TSC-441 clone manufactured by HighTex and sold in the USA under the Cowboy brand) ) does not have these timing marks:

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Uwe
typo

[MADMAX22]

Thats probably why Steve I think it is says to align lip above the bolts along the main shaft to ensure correct timing. With a lack of timing marks you gotta use something although unless that key groove is always "aligned" properly dont see how it can be a reliable marker. 

 

Thanks for the manual Uwe, that will be helpful hopefully. 

[Wizcrafts]

Diyer;

If you're worried about clone quality, have you considered buying an actual Juki TSC-441?

[brmax]

Something I have found in the past, is many machines and types of machinery may need some align marks made.

Finding these specific areas requires sometimes a lot more in-depth checking, turning and or aligning of others to designated positions. For what its worth I have recently found in this new interest sewing machinery is the very same.

I quickly, finally? found a bit more up front gives me a chance to kickback and enjoy the very reason i started this journey.

Ask all the questions you can and want, a great number of members have seen or heard the answers and share these.

 

good day

Floyd

[Uwe]

6 hours ago, Diyer said:

What are peoples' experiences with "cheesy screws"? Which ones must be replaced with ones made of decent metal, or has the quality improved enough not to need this?Are the screw sizes REALLY  Imperial, not metric?

As for screws, there is a mix of imperial, metric, and specialty xx/64 screws in many machines. Most Juki parts manuals, including the Juki TSC-441 Parts manual (Juki 441 parts List.pdf) list screw sizes, which is super useful. 

You don't want the screw material to be too strong. If you're going to cross thread or strip some threads, you want the screw to die, not the threaded hole. It's MUCH cheaper and MUCH easier to replace a screw than it is to re-drill and re-tap a threaded hole.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Uwe

[dikman]

Glad I could give you a chuckle, madmax . I should have said that most manuals can be found online, so my assumption was that most (with a clone) would probably try and download the genuine manual that the machine is based on. That's what I would do, but I guess I should have made myself clearer. (Slaps self on back of head).

[Diyer]

Thanks everyone for all your input. I am going to disagree about the comment on cheese screws, because if any of them have loctite on (as some are supposed to), and the material is soft, the head will deform and make it really difficult to undo, also possibly breaking off and leaving a nasty mess to drill  and tap out. There has to be a correct balance between the hardness of both components in my opinion.

Genuine Juki 441 heads are £6,000.00 or so plus Vat, so out of my price range.

I have had some good prices for clone 441 heads, but today,after saying second hand heads of the machine type I want are almost impossible to find- a visit to my local saddle maker for names of used machine dealers, I find he is selling a (well used)Adler 205/370 or 374 (grey paint) for reasonable money- likely under 2,000 euros. See my next post on the subject.

[mixmkr]

Stick a heat gun on that Locktite.  Makes a big difference.

[Diyer]

Yes, good idea. My heat gun has lots of uses.......

[Wizcrafts]

51 minutes ago, Diyer said:

Thanks everyone for all your input.

I have had some good prices for clone 441 heads, but today,after saying second hand heads of the machine type I want are almost impossible to find- a visit to my local saddle maker for names of used machine dealers, I find he is selling a (well used)Adler 205/370 or 374 (grey paint) for reasonable money- likely under 2,000 euros. See my next post on the subject.

If it is in good sewing condition and has harness feet, you have lucked out big time. Many of us suffer from Adler Envy, accompanied by thin wallets.

[Diyer]

The Adler Envy might well be replaced with an even thinner wallet when I have shelled out for the various spares I find it needs. I paid 80 euros for a presser foot (beautifully made) for my 105/64. I do like the Adler engineering though.

[MADMAX22]

19 hours ago, Uwe said:

As for screws, there is a mix of imperial, metric, and specialty xx/64 screws in many machines. Most Juki parts manuals, including the Juki TSC-441 Parts manual (Juki 441 parts List.pdf) list screw sizes, which is super useful. 

You don't want the screw material to be too strong. If you're going to cross thread or strip some threads, you want the screw to die, not the threaded hole. It's MUCH cheaper and MUCH easier to replace a screw than it is to re-drill and re-tap a threaded hole.

I will bet ya any of the German/Japanese made sewing machines had properly heat treated screws and bolts along with the old USA made ones. China has been known for both crap heat treat and junk metal, atleast until the US started selling them all our scrap steel for next to nothing. They are good at castings/coping for the most part hence why alot of people have taken various pieces of equipment and replaced the bearings/hardware/fittings and had a pretty nice item. 

Oh and if you properly install screws and bolts you dont have cross thread issues. 

[SolarLeatherMachines]

On 1/29/2017 at 4:16 PM, Diyer said:

PRICE VS QUALITY.

There is a huge difference in price between the genuine article, and the Chinese copy. As a retired engineer, I have always wondered where those cost savings have come from. Some will be the possibly artificial exchange rate, plus a lower labour cost. The rest will be "corner cutting"- lower or wider material specifications,lower tolerances on machining and finish specifications, plus more variability on heat treatment.(my pet hate- I cannot get sewing pins that do not either break or bend!!) Also eliminating or combining as many parts as possible will reduce manufacturing cost.

I'm a trained Mechanical Design Engineer from aerospace, and have designed MANY extreme precision machines.  Now I represent Cowboy Machines in Dallas.  

Choosing a clone really comes down to the problem of "Better being the enemy of Good Enough".  If the clone does a job that you're happy with, why would you pay more?   For sure, there are some awesome machines coming out of Germany, but those prices are awesome, too.  

On 1/29/2017 at 4:16 PM, Diyer said:

How have people coped without those marks, other than trial and error, with many hours of sweat and frustration?Also, the settings in the manual are for the blanket stitch feed dog and foot, not the smooth leather ones.Is there going to be a difference-I did note that the manual states their settings are a "starting point".

The timing marks are helpful but not essential.  There are other landmarks (bosses, journals, flats) that are carved in the mainshaft, and THOSE are the primary timing landmarks.   Once you do a few hundred machines, you simply start at one end, and adjust them down the line.  For a completely, seriously honked-up machine, it can re-timed in about 20 minutes. 

I totally agree about the soft metal in the fasteners.  Especially in the allen screws.  I now have a vast collection of properly made hardware, and anytime a fastener is in question, I replace it.  It save so much time in the long run.  

-Alexander
Solar Leather Machines

[MADMAX22]

On 2/3/2017 at 4:03 PM, SolarLeatherMachines said:

The timing marks are helpful but not essential.  There are other landmarks (bosses, journals, flats) that are carved in the mainshaft, and THOSE are the primary timing landmarks.   Once you do a few hundred machines, you simply start at one end, and adjust them down the line.  For a completely, seriously honked-up machine, it can re-timed in about 20 minutes. 

Do you have any info you would care to share on this? Not being able to use the juki manual the way it is written because the machine doesnt have timing marks, a few videos I have scene have you setting timing based on parts that are loosened and repositioned to achieve proper timing so to me that doesnt make much sense but I havent done alot of these machines. 

[SolarLeatherMachines]

11 hours ago, MADMAX22 said:

Do you have any info you would care to share on this? Not being able to use the juki manual the way it is written because the machine doesnt have timing marks, a few videos I have scene have you setting timing based on parts that are loosened and repositioned to achieve proper timing so to me that doesnt make much sense but I havent done alot of these machines. 

Sure.  The main shaft is the key.  It is "zero" and all parts must be relative to it.

Specifically, the round "groove-cam" at the end of the mainshaft is permanently mounted on in most cases, so it's the one item that won't change. That cam has a step machined into it that attaches to the needle bar dog-bone.  It is this step that is a major landmark, since it is easy to spot, and doesn't change position relative to the main shaft. Timing the machine is simply a manner of rotating this cam to the various angular positions(horizontal, vertical, etc) and setting the baseline drive pieces into position.  Each drive piece has a particular cam rotation, and a corresponding position.  Once you get these 2 major pieces into correct rotational position relative to the cam, everything else is cake.  

This level of timing problem is really rare.  I'd be surprised if you have it, but you can check.  One of the indicators would be that the hook assembly is turning in the opposite direction of the normal motion.  

Edited February 11, 2017 by SolarLeatherMachines

[MADMAX22]

Thanks Alex. 

1 hour ago, SolarLeatherMachines said:

This level of timing problem is really rare.  I'd be surprised if you have it, but you can check.  One of the indicators would be that the hook assembly is turning in the opposite direction of the normal motion.

Its not that my machine is way out of time. I am just going to go thru and check everything this weekend and try and see what I can do about the reverse stitching. Right now I dont use reverse because I have to push the reverse lever up then pull it back down about a quarter inch and if I am lucky it will stitch back into close to the same  holes. I did try the silly washer spacer thing but I had to have close to a quarter inch of washers in the top part to get it close. Not sure if this was something that was fixed in the later 4500s (mine is about 5 yrs old) as I see all the advertisement videos showing it stitch back into the same holes without issue. 

Mine also when backtacking starts sounding really loud and clunky after about 3 stitches which isnt right. 

This is why I want to check everything starting at the beginning.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

Wow.  That really IS odd.  Normally only 1 washer is required and that nails it.   (Once I spent a whole weekend working on trying to find a better way to fix the reverse....no luck.  Washers are still the best way.)

That sounds like something is loose on the bottom end, too.  Wouldn't hurt to go through and ensure everything is snug.  

[MADMAX22]

2 hours ago, SolarLeatherMachines said:

Wow.  That really IS odd.  Normally only 1 washer is required and that nails it.   (Once I spent a whole weekend working on trying to find a better way to fix the reverse....no luck.  Washers are still the best way.)

That sounds like something is loose on the bottom end, too.  Wouldn't hurt to go through and ensure everything is snug.  

Yeah seems to be the only way, its been brought up here many many times and either everyone says the washer fixes it but none of the distributors of these machines have anything else to say about it. None of them advertise having to put a washer in there to fix it either, atleast not on there websites lol. Guess thats the price to pay for only spending 3 grand on a machine vice 6.