Avenger holster question - reinforcement panel

[MikeG]

My son wants a holster for his birthday.  I haven't made a holster before and don't want him shooting himself because of a poor holster.  I have settled on an avenger style holster for his Taurus 709 slim.  I have pored over this site and much more.  JLS,  your patterns always come to the top.  So on to my question . . ..

I have a basic pattern made, but I am not satisfied with the belt channel/reinforcing piece.  Perhaps since the gun is small, but everything I try looks clunky to me on the front side of the holster.  So now I am wondering is there a need for the reinforcing patch to wrap around or is it mainly for style?   I have done a LOT of searching and if there are avenger style holsters without the belt channel wrapping around to the front, I haven't seen them.

Any thoughts from you holster experts on stitching a belt loop to the back side of the holster without wrapping it around to the front?

Thanks!

 

[JLSleather]

The wrap is just a style... and yes, you certainly can make a holster with a belt loop and no wrap around.

I personally like a bit (at the top) because the holster is more rigid than a single layer.  A slim (maybe 1" wide) strip is enough -- the broader pieces you sometimes see are not required, and often are added just for an area for tooling designs.  Something like this works very well..

Aguycould just as easily - and with less bulk -- make a lined holster which would have the 'firmness' of two layers without adding any bulk.  Instead of 8 oz leather, use two layers of 4oz.  Costs a bit more, but firm and smooth inside and out.

So, yes- aguycould also eliminate the wrap, just use a "straight up" belt loop in the back -- wouldn't be the first one

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by JLSleather

[Boriqua]

The Avenger style of holster is actually the one I like to wear best. As far as sellers the pancakes out sell them a thousand to one for some reason but I prefer avengers in my own carry. Now there is plus and minus to the design. The Avenger breaks in and then for the most part stays that way for many years while a pancake can continue to be affected by the tightness of the belt for quite a while. The downside is the avenger can bobble while the pancake gets glued to your side. Its my very long way of getting to the point .. If you are going to do a sewn on strap on the back and omit a re enforcing panel or throat support then be sure to put a good hunk of material back there. This is one I was working a long time ago but I still do the back the same. My belt loop goes from right up against the stitch line on the right that isnt there yet to about a centimeter or so shy of the center line of the holster. I have found I get almost all the benefits of the pancake that sticks to my body when hiking or doing other activities but I get a ready open pocket that I love about the avenger.

Were we voting I would suggest the same as Jeff and say go with a smaller throat support rather than nothing. That extra reinforce piece is nice to have and really makes a wrap around holster perfecter. Maybe you should consider texturing, color contrast and size so it is more appealing to you. Here are just a few throat support treatments and I am sure you can think of a hundred more.

 

 

 

[Dwight]

Avengers in my experience, . . . are good for a light, small, non bulky weapon.

Put a full size or commander size 1911, . . . a P85, . . . CZ75, . . . a Python, . . . or similar size and weight weapon in it, . . . they are not long in the woods to opening up in the pouch, . . . and / or the back loops become stretched by the constant movement.

Some folks who are not as active in their activities may not experience this, . . . but I'll take a pancake any day, . . . better yet, . . . an IWB.  But opinions differ, . . . and that is a very good looking holster design.

May God bless,

Dwight

[MikeG]

Thank you all for walking me through the why of the reinforcement strap.  I have been following your work for some time, and that has encouraged me to tackle this project.  JLS, I have read your holster pattern design tutorial over and over, and hopefully I'm beginning to understand it.  Boriqua, thanks for the pictures.  Dwight, I really respect your experience and your opinion here. In this instance the Taurus is fairly compact, but I will pay special attention to the opening (I will add the reinforcement) and making sure the belt loop is substantial.  I'll let you know how it works out.

Thanks,

Mike

[JLSleather]

If you startinta understand what that jls guy said, you got bigger prollems than we thought!

 

[Josh Ashman]

Mike,

Holster maker trivia and history aren't worth much. but for what it is worth... To the best of my knowledge the "Avenger" type holster was first made by Bruce Nelson. He called it the "professional" and it was defined by the tunnel belt loop on the back with a trailing slot. They had zero cant and they didn't have the reinforcement around the front. Milt Sparks started making these for Bruce as their model 55 BN. Bianchi later came out with the "Askins Avenger" which had some cant and the reinforcement around the front. If you go to the 1911 forum and do a search of Bruce Nelson, 55BN, Professional, etc. you'll see tons of info about this style of holster. You'll also see guys that swear they are the best thing ever and that they work for full size 1911's all day long.

A lot of how a design will work has to do with the leather you're using. Solid, firm back leather from a well tanned hide will form and hold it's shape well for quite some time. Build a holster with the exact same pattern and the exact same process from soft stretchy belly leather and it won't last at all.

I'd suggest you get some good leather, either W&C or HO from the back or butt and give it a try. You can use somebody else's pattern or make your own. Build one and see how it works then you adjust what you don't like on the next one you build. A million internet opinions from other people won't teach you as much as you'll learn by doing it yourself a few times. 

That's all just my humble opinion, of course. 

Good luck with your holster!

Josh

[chiefjason]

If you do the reinforcement either make it short of touching the ejection port or cover it completely.  If it ends up in the middle be very careful not to let it mold into the port.  It causes issues on the draw.  Not that I would have experience in that.  

[JLSleather]

4 hours ago, Josh Ashman said:

A million internet opinions from other people won't teach you as much as you'll learn by doing it yourself a few times. 

[MikeG]

So I jumped in and drew the design, made it first from 1/8" craft foam to get an idea how it would look, then made my first holster.  A bunch of firsts - first totally scratch pattern, following JLS tutorial - Thanks!!!   First time mixing colors to get "black cherry" as found on other areas on this site.  First time using an airbrush.  I'm happy with the holster, but jeez I need to work on the stitching.  (machine stitched, but I need lots of practice there).  Thanks for the tips and the encouragement to do this.

But I spent hours drawing it, cutting it out, coloring it, putting it together, and so forth.  I just don't understand how those folks on YouTube can make one in three and a half minutes!

Quote

 

 

[alpha2]

Looks like you really studied up on that one! Nice job.

[HBAR]

You dont need a stiffener if you line the holster.  I never make unlined holsters.  

  You can see from the pictures how I did this one. It is a personal holster of mine. ( Sorry about the glare, the sun was coming in the window and both washing out parts of the picture while also creating shadows in other places)

 

I should mention this holster was based on a Slickbald customs pattern.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by HBAR

[MikeG]

Thank you HBAR.  I might try something like that for my next attempt. 

[malabar]

There are a couple of good reasons to put the reinforcing piece around the top.

-- It makes a rigid mouth which is essential for racking the slide one-handed

--  It enables you to put a steel band in the throat, which gives you adjustable tension

-- it simply looks good

tk