Cowboy CB4500 vs Cobra Class 4 Comparison

[Wonderboy]

Hi. 

I'm in the market for a compound feed walking foot sewing machine that will sew leather ranging in thickness from ~1mm leather to ~20mm.

I've been reading about the Cowboy CB4500 and Cobra Class 4. From what I've read people are saying they are "basically" the same machine, but are they really? Are they exactly the same (aka 'identical') in even way apart from the following differences?

- the cobra has EPNS (not sure I need EPNS when the machines can stitch so slowly at ~1 stitch per second)

- the cobra comes with more accessories up front (but has a higher cost)

- cost. in Australia the Class4 costs $5150 while the 4500 costs $4600.  This is 11% difference for me.

- the Cowboy has stainless steel needle plates and feet (not really an issue for me as I can't see myself sewing damp leather)

- in my humble opinion the Cowboy looks much nicer (personal thing)

I'm a complete newbie but I have to say I have found it extremely hard to find even the most basic information on these machines that allows me to compare.  The information above is from this website and not from manufacturers websites.  I can't even find the electronic user guides for these machines.  

[RockyAussie]

There are a few differences but I think you need to advise what type of work you want to do more fully as both machine types have sponsored this site I think and it may be a bit ticklish to get the best answer and few will have a good knowledge of both. An enps is great when you need to do a lot of repetitive stop and start work and I love them but I don't have one on my 441 and don't really miss it there. Dealer wise you might be better off with the CB 4500 as I am unaware of a local agent for the Cobra but I don't know of that for sure. There are a few rough bits on the Cowboys and I think some parts on the Cobra are better finished off but I haven't had too many problems or issues with mine I have to say.If you get up this way feel welcome to come and try out mine. I look forward to any other user comments as well.  

[Wizcrafts]

14 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

Hi. 

I'm in the market for a compound feed walking foot sewing machine that will sew leather ranging in thickness from ~1mm leather to ~20mm.

I've been reading about the Cowboy CB4500 and Cobra Class 4.

I have a CB4500 and a buddy has a Cobra Class 4. Both machines have similar specs and use the same needles and bobbins. They are based upon the venerable Juki TSC-441. They are well built and will last for many years under normal harness, belt and holster sewing use.

One thing they won't do so well is to sew 1mm of anything. That is just too thin. But, if you were to remove the feed dog, install the narrow slotted flat throat plate, change to a #18 (aka 110) needle, load up with #69 (aka T70) bonded thread, back off the top tension and dink with the bobbin tension, you may be able to actually sew this thin.

In actual use, I never try to sew under about 2mm as it is too much work for something that can be done with much less effort on any walking foot, or even a straight stitch machine. Converting a huge heavy duty machine like a 441 into a light duty machine is time consuming and can lead to lots of frustration as you fine tune out skipped stitches and overly tight tensions that can pucker the leather.

These machines were built with thread sizes 138 and up in mind. There aren't even any leather point needles readily available under a #23 (aka 160). I don't even bother with #138, as I have another machine that handles it even better..I believe in using thread sizes 207 and up in a Cowboy or Cobra 441 machine, into at least 1/8 inch (3.2mm) of leather, The results are more consistent.

[Wonderboy]

Thanks a lot Rocky and Wiz for the valued input. Thanks for the offer too Rocky...

Point noted with min stitch thickness. I double checked and the thickness will be about 2mm so this shouldn't be an issue for me. Good to know the machines are identical as this simplifies comparing the machines. Seems the above things I've listed are the main differences.

 

[Darren Brosowski]

There is a huge amount of information about these machines on pages such as this.

As a Cowboy dealer I tell people to go to pages like this and get user feedback.

There are a few things to note about price in Australia

1/ CB4500 is $4450

2/ That price is on the Heavy Pedestal table and not the lighter table that Cobra use although it is an option for $100 less.

3/ I do not know what QSM include but we supply pretty much every foot and plate you could want for normal use. Binders etc are options

4/ Personally I do not like EPS as - and this is feedback from many  customers - you get to the end of a piece and want to stop, take your foot of the pedal and the mongrel goes the next stitch and ruins the job.

We have an open weekend 17/18 June in Bundaberg and you are welcome to come

 

[mikesc]

Personally I do not like EPS as - and this is feedback from many customers - you get to the end of a piece and want to stop, take your foot of the pedal and the mongrel goes the next stitch and ruins the job.

This...on any machine..makes me say far worse words than "mongrel".

[Wonderboy]

Haha, yes that would be frustrating...

It's always interesting to hear people's feedback. What one person loves another can't stand.

@Darren Brosowski thanks for the useful information. It's funny as I was chatting to my wife about the table tonight. It's another difference and something to note as we want the heavy table so good to know it comes standard with the Cowboy!

My comments about lack of information are directed at the manufacturers, in this case Cowboy and Cobra. I'm accustomed to being able to find user guides and specification lists on manufacturers sites but for the life of me I can not find them. For example, can you tell me where to find an electronic user guide on the Cowboy manufacturer's website? I'm even reading about how customers of Cowboy and Cobra have not received their physical user guide so request one to be posted to them. It's strange because I use electronic versions whenever possible. Physical copies are old school these days...

I would always come to a site like this for feedback (user experience, word of mouth, etc) but specs and user guides are things I would expect as a customer to easily find on manufacturers websites.  Let me know if I'm going blind as it's entirely possible too.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Wonderboy

[mikesc]

Most guides these days are in Chinglish..( never understand why the dealers don't read and correct them, or get them to make sense, and correct typos, but then I notice that even modern adler and old singer manuals have many more typos than I'd consider acceptable )..worse is when the guides/ manuals were in Chinglish and then are translated in China ( via what appears to be Google translate ) into French or Spanish or Italian..Even when you are fluent in two or more of the languages in the guides / manuals, ( applies to sewing machines, toasters, phones, whatever ) you are still left thinking the equivalent of "well it is English Jim, just not as we know it ..

The manuals for servo motors make no sense at all, in any language ( I have had Chinese friends tell me that the Chinese in them makes no sense either, they figure that the factories must get the semi-literate janitors to write them based upon watching the servos for 5 minutes whilst sweeping up and listening to thrash metal ) ..and yet, Chinese "techies" and engineers can write really good accurate English.. read some of the "maker boards" and people like sexycyborg..yes read , don't just look at the pictures :) Very bright, good English. and there are millions more, but apparently no one ever asks them to write the guides or manuals.

Edited June 5, 2017 by mikesc

[brmax]

Speaking off the cuff here!  But old school and physical  I totally understand and agree with the eps comments. And gladly followup with the one setup with my Mitsubishi clutch motor is king by far over two other newer ones on servos,( why i dont know ).

I noticed awhile back before i scored a used Cobra. The super duty stand being used by our friends in Australia and also commented before that this is in my book a Real nice stand. 

It would be a great oppurtunity to take a trip and check them out first hand. 

Good day

Floyd

 

[dikman]

"well it is English Jim, just not as we know it .. " (To further paraphrase - "there's Cowboys on the starboard bow").

Yes, I've often wondered why Chinese companies that are manufacturing very good items do not go that one step further and have someone who can do a proper English translation of their documents. A mystery.

I bought an EPS with one of my servos, as it sounded like a good idea, but I don't like it! As Mike said it had a tendency to sometimes put in an extra stitch, and while on clothing with fine stitches it may not matter if it happens on leather work with "big" stitches it's a pest. Besides, using a very slow speed, as I do, it's easy enough to control exactly where I want it to stop.

[Darren Brosowski]

The CB4500 manual is in the Queens English folks and fully understandable.

PM me your email addy and I will send a copy Wonderboy

 

 

[Darren Brosowski]

The heavy stand is something Solar, Toledo and Cowboy USA have available and they use it for the CB5500.

We primarily went to the heavy stand as many machines (Not Cowboy) had been sold in Australia the past with a rather wobbly stand that looks very much like the standard Cowboy pedestal but wobbles something terrible in use. It also, of course, gives us a point of differentiation between other brands on the market.

Every now and then I make custom tops and flat beds for various machines.

[Wonderboy]

Thanks Darren for the manual, very much appreciated. Love my manuals...

At this stage I've categorised EPNS as something that's not essential for me.

I've seen some google images (I think this may be one of yours?) of the 4500 like this one which I have to say is my style. I know it's only aesthetics but it's nice to have something that looks good when you plan on spending a lot of time with it. I have other tables in the area I've chosen for the machine I will purchase which are made from the table top hardwood purchased from Bunnings so it would match very nicely.

So to confirm the 4500 doesn't come with the U shaped large desk that the smaller 3200 can come with? All the pictures I've seen of the 4500 seem to be of this pedestal style bench.

[SolarLeatherMachines]

The English manuals are in downloadable format here:    

http://www.solar-leather.com/supporthelp/

 

 

[Wonderboy]

Thanks for replying Solar. I could only previously see the assembly manual.

Very helpful.