Dürkopp 18 Patcher Restoration - long journey...

[rustyhorse15]

Thank you for the information! Every little bit helps! 

I did receive it in this condition, not sure either why someone would paint all this red! After much research, I have decided it’s not going to be the right machine for me to sew heavy leather, I would like to sell it if anyone interested. Not sure what a decent asking price would be. I’m in Washington state. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by rustyhorse15

[Subterra]

I have always loved this machine because once I had it serviced and adjusted for poly thread and the tips on the bobbin shuttles added to due to wear, it worked well for 1,000s of biker patches I sewed on.  We also had two Singer 29-4 machines but my first love has been this machine.  My wife and I literally earned this machine by riding and helping on summer camp trail rides at a summer horse camp. It was gathering dust in the tack room.  It is nice to know the model is a 17???  I was told at one time that it was built around the mid 1880's... is that correct? 

In the 25 years of owning this machine, I have discovered the most important thing to do is to keep it lubed.  It will also start skipping stitches and wadding up the thread from the bobbin under the project if you don't keep it lubed. Also due to using poly thread these days, the loop piece just to the left of the oiler ended up cut clear through and had to be replaced and I actually manufactured a new one out of a coat hangar. The top eye also was being cut through by the poly so I found a couple of inserts made of ceramic to stop the cutting of the thread.  Like my grandpa used to say... "if it ain't movin' grease it."  I totally agree! Don't know what this machine is worth these days, but is is a gem.

[Constabulary]

Its indeed a Class 17 but here are several subclasses.

[CowboyBob]

On 1/26/2020 at 8:40 AM, MikeRock said:

What a wonderful way to begin the day.   I have a very nice old Durkopp 17 with that exact needle plate.  I will get some Christmas ornaments off the top of it and get some photos today.  Next to it is my 29-4 that needs a screw for the bobbin carrier.   Now I can start finding the few parts I need to make both run again.  The 29-4 came from a friend who did automotive upholstery until Agent Orange claimed him some thirty years ago.  I took out a piece from curiosity......now maybe I can replace it.  Bad habit...note to self, "Don't take stuff apart.....that you can't put back together in ten minutes".... 

The Durkopp followed me home from the Midwest Horse Fair in Madison, WI a few years back.  Just need a threading diagram I think.

God bless

Here's some pics of the carrier from a Singer & Claese. the Durkopp  has a .030 larger center hole & the teeth are further apart on the Durkopp too.

[Oluffen]

Hi again!

Since I´m about to try and get some needles for the Claes & Flentje you helped me with just the other day. I was thinking of trying to get some needles for another project as well. That project happens to be a Durkopp Cl 18. (Or possibly Cl 17) The label on it says Durkopp and the letters D. R. G. M. followed by the number 132 492. (I think I have found what I think is a serialnumber:  4 570)

I have found manuals for both of them (in German) but as I understand from them the 17 use system 88 needles and the 18 use system 657 needles. But somewhere I think I read that the 18 can use both of them and I also read something about that the 88 shold be 88 Long?

First of all, do you know the difference between Cl 17 and 18 as machines or can you help me guess what I have?

And then we have the obvious question!  How to find needles! :-) 

(In my opinion the 17 and 18 are so very much alike each other so I think it would be strange if they don´t take the same needles, so maybe both 88 and 657 will work, but I think both of those systems are discontinued!?

 

[Constabulary]

System 657 is like the System 88 needle but 657 has a longer tip - thats all. They are interchangeable.

I somewhere have a pack of 657 I think. Let me check...

[Oluffen]

I have found this on the webpage for Groz-Beckert and if there is any logic to the suffix H this needle would be the same as the 657 but with a shoulder, but maybe that´s totally wrong needle?

Groz-Beckert 215 AH - Also called 657 H

and also

Groz-Beckert 88 - Also called 175, DUx1, DUx2

Edited July 19, 2020 by Oluffen

[Constabulary]

I do not know what 215AH / 657H is but don´t let just the numbers confuse you!

Just as a sample:

A system 81 needle is not the same as 81x1 needle. 81 is for patchers (Like Claes 200-1, 200-2, 8345-1 8345-2...) but he the 81x1 is a much shorter needle for serger machines (singer 81, Adler 81, Mauser...). Better check the measures!

 

EDIT:

just found this regarding 215AH so they pretty much the same as it seems - I guess the 215 AH has a scarf and the Sy. 88 does not (not sure though)

https://www.strima.com/215-ah-suk-110-schmetz-sewing-machine-needle-g04-1box-100-pcs/item-309798

 

EDIT II:

My 657 has no scarf but a longer tip than the 88 that's the only difference I can see.

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Constabulary

[Oluffen]

Yes, but I find it very hard to get hold of the length of the needles. As I have understood the diameter is rather straight forward to get, but I find no way to get the length of the needles. Or is it jut me being a bit stupid or to knew in this game?

 

[Constabulary]

It´s indeed challenging. Some websites show technical pictures of the most common needles. Finding technical information on vintage needles can be tough.

Fortunately I have an old book where needles are pictured in original sizes. Not all needles are shown, just the most common of that time (Book is from the 1940´s I think)

[Oluffen]

Ok thank you for all information (again!) and good to hear that it´s not only me being stupid not finding the lenght of the needles! :-)

I have in total 5  more or less old "industrial" sewing machines. The other 3 are a Singer 29K 4, a Husqvarna 27-10 and a Durkopp 265. Those should not be that hard finding needles for, at least I hope!

 

[Wizcrafts]

Please don't take this as a professional option, but, couldn't one buy a longer less obscure needle that has the same upper shank diameter as the original and grind the top down until those needles are in time with the hook? This would help fill in the gap where nobody makes a particular system for your old machines but longer ones would fit if trimmed down.

[Oluffen]

@Wizcrafts I don´t really know cause I´m a real newbie in this but probably there is people doing just that, but I guess if you sew a lot it gets tiresome to do the job every time you need to change the needle. At least on domestic machines people sometimes do modifications to the machine instead, but I think that would be a shame on these old nice machines.

I am surprised that there seems to be no one specializing in doing custom needles to people.  My opinion is that with the technology of today it would not be impossible to make needles with ok quality, but i may be wrong!

Regards,

Johan

 

[MikeRock]

On needles........I just went through a series of emails asking Schmetz to simply make a longer thread groove in 26-200, 26-230, 26-250 and 26-300 needles.  Just an additional 0.600" of grind, no other changes.  The Chicago branch sent it to Germany and they told me first that they could do it.  I offered to have a hundred of each needle modified.  Next they told me that a Landis #1 was an awl and hook machine and they were not interested.  I sent them part photos and the fact that we use Schmetz needles now, courtesy of Eli.  They then got snooty and said due to Covid they were not interested........  It's not polite to swear on this site so I won't.  That is Scmetz for you.........     I guess I'll set up one of my tool and cutter grinders with a 1" dia. high speed diamond and grind the damned things myself. 

[Constabulary]

5 hours ago, MikeRock said:

On needles........I just went through a series of emails asking Schmetz to simply make a longer thread groove in 26-200, 26-230, 26-250 and 26-300 needles.  Just an additional 0.600" of grind, no other changes.  The Chicago branch sent it to Germany and they told me first that they could do it.  I offered to have a hundred of each needle modified.  Next they told me that a Landis #1 was an awl and hook machine and they were not interested.  I sent them part photos and the fact that we use Schmetz needles now, courtesy of Eli.  They then got snooty and said due to Covid they were not interested........  It's not polite to swear on this site so I won't.  That is Scmetz for you.........     I guess I'll set up one of my tool and cutter grinders with a 1" dia. high speed diamond and grind the damned things myself. 

Honesty - do you expect that a company like Schmetz / Groz-Beckert is "simply" making a small batch of just a few hundred needles with a slightly longer grove just for you? Really?

As far as I know Schmetz is no longer producing needles in Germany and has been taken over by Groz-Beckert a few years ago. So I guess the majority of GB and Schmetz needles is coming from Overseas sources nowadays. I´m not sure if GB is still producing in Germany at all. A while ago I noticed that new Schmetz needle packs no longer have the imprint "MADE IN GERMANY" it now says "MADE BY SCHMETZ" - hmmmmm ... pretty sure that's for a reason.

EDIT:

The latest pack does not even say "MADE BY SCHMETZ" .... maybe for a reason - I don´t know.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Constabulary

[Gunnarsson]

On 7/20/2020 at 1:06 AM, Oluffen said:

I am surprised that there seems to be no one specializing in doing custom needles to people.  My opinion is that with the technology of today it would not be impossible to make needles with ok quality, but i may be wrong!

I am sure the technology to make good needles in small batches is available, but the production time lost to resetting & testing the machine(s) for different sizes and types would probably make the needles very expensive, and the demand would be very small. Modifying machines for available needles is most likely a better option. It's a cost once, and then you can get all the needles you want for it cheap.

[shoepatcher]

Schmetz to my knowledge moved their production from Germany to India.   GB were producing needles in Vietnam as was Organ.

glenn

[316Guy]

Durkopp team,

I have two (CL 17-1-1) with the treadles. I found needles (332L). One machine needs a foot and foot bar. They're pretty simple to have one made from the other one I have. 

I need a bobbin shuttle and a bobbin casing and bobbins. I believe I can almost use any alder bobbin with similar size. (Grinding maybe required):)

I can't find a shuttles or a feet. The foot I'm sure I can put on a 29k foot or an 30-4 foot. 

I've been thinking if I can't get a shuttle and a bobbin case that will work. Do you guys think it's possible to switch out a arm bed which houses the bobbin shuttle? Like with one that easier to find. 

It should be pretty simple. The only thing is matching the shape of movement with the shuttle gearing. The back and forth motion of the arm and shuttle spin. I may even be able use a bigger bobbin. For some 277 thread. 

I'll probably sell one after I fix it. It's hardly ever been used. 

 

[shoepatcher]

Shuttles damn near impossible to find.  I hope to have them made next summer.   I  may have feet as well.  I have bobbins that will work in a Durkopp 17-1-1.  They are $1.50 each.

glenn

Edited November 19, 2020 by shoepatcher

[ManuelV]

On 2/2/2018 at 10:02 PM, Black Dogg said:

Very impressive job, Constabulary! Da sag ich nur: "Hut ab!"

I bet you wish you would have kept that threadstand you sold to me a couple of years ago , it would fit perfect with that machine.

If you need the complete manual for it (or a class 17), try  www.altenaehmaschine.de . Mr. Bethke has scans of the original manuals there. they helped me finally figure out how to thread mine.

By the way, what's the serial number of your machine? Mine is 4910 and I think fairly early, because of how fancy the stand and paint are.

The front crank on yours was an option that had to be special ordered when you placed the order with the factory and was more money. It was meant to make starting easier (instead of reaching around the side one could just use the front crank). As far as I know, every machine has the round cut-out cast into the body.

And yes, I heard the same about the factory being destroyed in an air raid at the end of WW 2. A crying shame, if you ask me; those machines are awesome!!

Again, very nice job on the restoration!! 

https://www.schiffmann-orthopaedie.de/mehr/historische-schuhmacher-naehmaschinen.
 

[ManuelV]

Hello, 

Interesting discussion and congratulations for the great restauration job. 

Does anyone have better scans od the durkopp cl. 18 instruction manual please? 

I only found the one available on: www.schiffmann-orthopaedie.de/mehr/historische-schuhmacher-naehmaschinen.

Mr. Bethke apparently does not respond to calls or emails so I would be grateful for any help.

Thank you very much in advance. 

Kind regards, 

Manuel V. 

[Wozzer]

I just bought the same machine. So far I have discovered the two tapered tip screws that hold the crank engager in place are missing. I am unable to turn the crank so far, and help or idea where I can get spares would be greatly appreciated?

[shoepatcher]

pic of the area that has the screws.  I have some parts and screws.

glenn