Buying first leather sewing machine

[Yetibelle]

Well there are plenty of comments on the Tippman hand machine.  If you get one cheep and working it's worth it, but most of them sell used for $800 plus so for that much you can get a good used motor driven walking foot machine. 

[Mocivnik]

Hmm...I didn't realise, they are SO expensive.

But for a begginner, is there even any chance of getting anything under 300$ (used, ofcourse)?

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, Mocivnik said:

Hmm...I didn't realise, they are SO expensive.

But for a begginner, is there even any chance of getting anything under 300$ (used, ofcourse)?

Watch any local online or newspaper classified ads for private sellers or businesses trying to get rid of an upholstery walking foot sewing machine. These machines are used to sew cloth and leather seat covers, boat covers, banners, tarps, tents, bags, etc. By the time the owners sell them they are well used and worn out. But, you may be able to find one you can afford, then pay to replace worn parts as you go.

Seven years ago I decided to get back into sewing leather after selling all of my machines. The second machine I bought was a used, but not abused walking foot machine that had been sitting idle in a business that made window blinds. I only paid $300 for that machine! It paid for itself in one month of home sewing jobs!

[Mocivnik]

18 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Watch any local online or newspaper classified ads for private sellers or businesses trying to get rid of an upholstery walking foot sewing machine. These machines are used to sew cloth and leather seat covers, boat covers, banners, tarps, tents, bags, etc. By the time the owners sell them they are well used and worn out. But, you may be able to find one you can afford, then pay to replace worn parts as you go.

Seven years ago I decided to get back into sewing leather after selling all of my machines. The second machine I bought was a used, but not abused walking foot machine that had been sitting idle in a business that made window blinds. I only paid $300 for that machine! It paid for itself in one month of home sewing jobs!

Exactly, what I did!

I got a few offers for about 800$, but that's the price they want it for old, used machines.

I am very unsure in three things now:

1. How do I know, if the machine is proper for leather sewing, based on look? (and how thick leather can it sew)

2. So, what I'm looking for is bottom AND top feed, which means with walking foot, right?

3. Flat vs. cylinder bed: If I got this right, it's cylinder bed ment for shoemaking and holsters, while the flat bed is for knife sheats, bags, etc.?

 

What you can get in my country for under 150$ right now:

 

price for below: 120$

price for below: 10$

 

for below: 50$

 

for below: 60$

 

for below: 100$

[mikesc]

The first machine ( pedestal type ..it has bottom feed and a roller ) is the sort usually used for shoes or bags ( you could make a table for it )..it might be able to sew the thickness that you would want ( ?..hard to tell because the photo is dark with no detail..what does the advert say , what machine is it ..manufacturer, model ..number ..?

the last one ( lowest on your set ) is a domestic machine..not good for what you want.
the other two..
the second one is bottom feed only
the third one ( adler ) might be bottom feed with "walking foot )..but I don't think so, ..hard to tell ..photo is too dark and the angle is bad to see the needle area.
the fourth one ( pfaff 31 )is a domestic machine..no good for what you want..
better picture of a pfaff 31on a forum elsewhere..see
https://www.quiltingboard.com/vintage-antique-machine-enthusiasts-f22/pfaff-treadle-31-a-t179170.html
copy and paste that into your address bar to see.

the fifth one is a domestic machine..no good for what you want..

Ideally you want what is called "compound feed"..means that feed is with "dogs" at the bottom..and also pulling "feed" with the needle..and feed "help" with two walking feet..so when you look at the needle area..you should see three vertical bars..one to hold the needle..the other two are for the "walking feet"..

Edited August 26, 2017 by mikesc

[Mocivnik]

1 hour ago, mikesc said:

The first machine ( pedestal type ..it has bottom feed and a roller ) is the sort usually used for shoes or bags ( you could make a table for it )..it might be able to sew the thickness that you would want ( ?..hard to tell because the photo is dark with no detail..what does the advert say , what machine is it ..manufacturer, model ..number ..?

the last one ( lowest on your set ) is a domestic machine..not good for what you want.
the other two..
the second one is bottom feed only
the third one ( adler ) might be bottom feed with "walking foot )..but I don't think so, ..hard to tell ..photo is too dark and the angle is bad to see the needle area.
the fourth one ( pfaff 31 )is a domestic machine..no good for what you want..
better picture of a pfaff 31on a forum elsewhere..see
https://www.quiltingboard.com/vintage-antique-machine-enthusiasts-f22/pfaff-treadle-31-a-t179170.html
copy and paste that into your address bar to see.

the fifth one is a domestic machine..no good for what you want..

Ideally you want what is called "compound feed"..means that feed is with "dogs" at the bottom..and also pulling "feed" with the needle..and feed "help" with two walking feet..so when you look at the needle area..you should see three vertical bars..one to hold the needle..the other two are for the "walking feet"..
 

@mikesc: thank you very much for a comment!

So, first thing first: a domestic machine is out of the question. Good, this cleans off 1/3 of all machines out there (vs. electric and vs. Tippman hand machine). Great.

Next, what should I be looking for is a walking foot (3 bars from the top; needle and 2 on the walking feet.

If the foot could be lifted up to 10mm above the table, it's proper for sewing whatever you can feed under it? Is that correct, is that something I should be looking for at the machines? (if I want, as I said in first post; sew 2-3 layers of 2.5mm thick veg tan leather together, but that's maximum. I will mostly just sew 1-2 layers of 2.5mm veg tan).

[mikesc]

So, first thing first: a domestic machine is out of the question. Good, this cleans off 1/3 of all machines out there (vs. electric and vs. Tippman hand machine). Great.

You can use some industrial machines ( that were designed to have, and originally supplied with a motor) with a treadle table froma domestic machine..it means altering the table a little ( and reinforcing it ) ..but can be done..just in case you find a cheap industrial machine with a non working motor and can get a domestic treadle table with a non working machine "head"..you can put them together to make a working machine.

Next, what should I be looking for is a walking foot (3 bars from the top; needle and 2 on the walking feet.

Yes..But..probably better to explain why ;-)
So..
The usual type of feed on domestic machines ( and on industrial machines that are designed to sew textiles ) is "Feed from the bottom"..or "bottom feed" or "drop feed" or "simple feed"..( needle bar and foot bar ..two bars )<= You might see them described using any of those phrases..or the equivalents in your local language..What it means is that the thing you are sewing is moved towards the back of the machine ( away from the operator ) and towards the needle by a plate ( which has teeth ) which rises from under the bed of the machine and and pulls the textile away from you towards the needle...This is OK for textiles..as long as the "sandwiches of the layers" are not too thick in total..or are not slippery.
On slippery materials..or when dealing with "sandwiches" of multiple layers of material..the upper and lower layers may not move in "co-ordination"..and so you'll get "dropped stitches" and a crappy finish..So..no good for leather.

Next type of feed is "Upper and lower feed"( needle bar and afoot bar ..two bars )..I have an industrial machine which does this ..Juki DLU 490 4 ..
It can stitch leather, but the upper and lower layers of the "sandwich" can still slip in relation to each other..and..most importantly..it has teeth on the bottom feed dogs and on the top ones..so it can mark veg tan leather badly on both the top and the bottom..but it is OK for plastics and chrome tan..and for veg tan where any marks on the surface are not important.

Then there is "needle feed"..this is where the needle pierces the textile ( or leather ) "sandwich" and ( at the same time as the lower feed dogs move the "sandwich" backwards..so does the needle ) ..very good for sewing layers of anything which would try to slide over each other as they are held in unison by the needle spearing through all the layers whilst the stitch is made..But..on leather (especially veg tan )..not so good..because the leather is more dense than textile and so has tendency to "stick" to the needle as it rises and so "interrupts" the formation of the stitches..( this type only has a needle bar and a foot bar..two bars )..But..if you have a roller where the top "foot" would normally be ..
( the top machine in your set of photos has a roller )..then the leather is held down by the roller as it is being stitched..and the roller usually doesn't leave a strong mark on the leather surface..( some roller machines do not have needle feed, some do .."with needle feed" is better )..Shoe makers use these "roller" machines a lot because they allow you to make curved lines of stitches very easily..

Then there is "compound feed"..This is where the bottom feed dogs raise and grip the leather from below, the needle pierces the "sandwich", the two top feet"alternate" in pressing the leather downwards ..this means that the sandwich has no chance to slip out of alignment at all..and the alternating feet used for leather work are usually smooth on their bases so that they do not mark the leather..This is ideal..

Now.."clearance"..How much you can lift the foot is only an approximate guide..Because when you lift the foot , at the very highest point of the lift, there is usually a mechanism that releases the thread tension..so..if you can lift 12mm, in reality you'll only have tension ( and be able to sew ) until around 10mm..example..I have a singer 211U166A..it has foot lift via a hand lever of about 12mm..it also has foot lift via a knee lifter of around 14mm to 16mm, but in reality the internal mechanism releases the thread tension at around 10mm..I can get 12mm under the foot, and if it can squash the layers don to 10 it will stitch fine..but if the layers are too dense to squash ..it will stitch badly, missing loads of stitches..it is only supposed to be able to stitch 9mm..so I'm happy at 10mm..even though I can get 14mm under the foot.

HTH :)

There are other combinations and varieties of "feed"..but these are the only ones that you need to be concerned with re "leather machines"..for now..

Edited August 26, 2017 by mikesc

[dikman]

If you can only have one machine a cylinder arm is more versatile, but a flatbed should do what you want to do - except holsters, don't even think about doing holsters on any machine unless it is heavy duty. Most machines in the "medium weight" range should have a lift around 10 mm. You need to look for industrial walking foot machines, ignore anything else regardless if the seller says things like "industrial quality", "semi-industrial" etc.

[Mocivnik]

23 hours ago, mikesc said:

 

 

 

 

You can use some industrial machines ( that were designed to have, and originally supplied with a motor) with a treadle table froma domestic machine..it means altering the table a little ( and reinforcing it ) ..but can be done..just in case you find a cheap industrial machine with a non working motor and can get a domestic treadle table with a non working machine "head"..you can put them together to make a working machine.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes..But..probably better to explain why ;-)
So..
The usual type of feed on domestic machines ( and on industrial machines that are designed to sew textiles ) is "Feed from the bottom"..or "bottom feed" or "drop feed" or "simple feed"..( needle bar and foot bar ..two bars )<= You might see them described using any of those phrases..or the equivalents in your local language..What it means is that the thing you are sewing is moved towards the back of the machine ( away from the operator ) and towards the needle by a plate ( which has teeth ) which rises from under the bed of the machine and and pulls the textile away from you towards the needle...This is OK for textiles..as long as the "sandwiches of the layers" are not too thick in total..or are not slippery.
On slippery materials..or when dealing with "sandwiches" of multiple layers of material..the upper and lower layers may not move in "co-ordination"..and so you'll get "dropped stitches" and a crappy finish..So..no good for leather.

Next type of feed is "Upper and lower feed"( needle bar and afoot bar ..two bars )..I have an industrial machine which does this ..Juki DLU 490 4 ..
It can stitch leather, but the upper and lower layers of the "sandwich" can still slip in relation to each other..and..most importantly..it has teeth on the bottom feed dogs and on the top ones..so it can mark veg tan leather badly on both the top and the bottom..but it is OK for plastics and chrome tan..and for veg tan where any marks on the surface are not important.

Then there is "needle feed"..this is where the needle pierces the textile ( or leather ) "sandwich" and ( at the same time as the lower feed dogs move the "sandwich" backwards..so does the needle ) ..very good for sewing layers of anything which would try to slide over each other as they are held in unison by the needle spearing through all the layers whilst the stitch is made..But..on leather (especially veg tan )..not so good..because the leather is more dense than textile and so has tendency to "stick" to the needle as it rises and so "interrupts" the formation of the stitches..( this type only has a needle bar and a foot bar..two bars )..But..if you have a roller where the top "foot" would normally be ..
( the top machine in your set of photos has a roller )..then the leather is held down by the roller as it is being stitched..and the roller usually doesn't leave a strong mark on the leather surface..( some roller machines do not have needle feed, some do .."with needle feed" is better )..Shoe makers use these "roller" machines a lot because they allow you to make curved lines of stitches very easily..

Then there is "compound feed"..This is where the bottom feed dogs raise and grip the leather from below, the needle pierces the "sandwich", the two top feet"alternate" in pressing the leather downwards ..this means that the sandwich has no chance to slip out of alignment at all..and the alternating feet used for leather work are usually smooth on their bases so that they do not mark the leather..This is ideal..

Now.."clearance"..How much you can lift the foot is only an approximate guide..Because when you lift the foot , at the very highest point of the lift, there is usually a mechanism that releases the thread tension..so..if you can lift 12mm, in reality you'll only have tension ( and be able to sew ) until around 10mm..example..I have a singer 211U166A..it has foot lift via a hand lever of about 12mm..it also has foot lift via a knee lifter of around 14mm to 16mm, but in reality the internal mechanism releases the thread tension at around 10mm..I can get 12mm under the foot, and if it can squash the layers don to 10 it will stitch fine..but if the layers are too dense to squash ..it will stitch badly, missing loads of stitches..it is only supposed to be able to stitch 9mm..so I'm happy at 10mm..even though I can get 14mm under the foot.

HTH

There are other combinations and varieties of "feed"..but these are the only ones that you need to be concerned with re "leather machines"..for now..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I got this right, this is a photo of a Juki machine with walking foot. The RED is the needle, the GREEN is the foot and the BLUE is the feed for the foot, am I right?

 

 

And if I got it right, it's the best thing if I could get a "compound feed" one, any other is quite innapropriate for me?

And when I'm looking for the machine, I should be checking for those 3 bars down? :D

And if I find the machine, with lifting a foot up to only 10mm, it will be more than enough for me (while sewing mostly just 2 layers of 2.5mm veg tan together)?

 

(Please forgive me for asking stupid and repeating questions here, but I'm having slightly difficulties understanding english in some phrases)

 

 

[Mocivnik]

23 hours ago, dikman said:

If you can only have one machine a cylinder arm is more versatile, but a flatbed should do what you want to do - except holsters, don't even think about doing holsters on any machine unless it is heavy duty. Most machines in the "medium weight" range should have a lift around 10 mm. You need to look for industrial walking foot machines, ignore anything else regardless if the seller says things like "industrial quality", "semi-industrial" etc.

Therefore, there's not a chance for doing holsters at any point. I won't be doing them much, but as much as I will, I will sew them by hand, I guess.

And for one machine (unfortunatelly, I have a 8h/day job and this is only a hobby for me. I'd like to have a full time store for leather products or even work by order, but I don't think this will ever happen), I think that the flatbed will do it for me for now. I know for the cylinder arm would come much much more in handy in case of holstery or bags, but I think (because I don't know much) that it cannot produce so straight stitches (in case I would like to sew a leather belt) on longer distance.