Wade Tree Help

[Rolandranch]

Thanks, guys for all the advice. I will definitely look into all the options given. Thank you, Ken, for explaining rawhide to me. That helps and clears up a few questions I had.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I believe Ken is correct in stating that bullhide is simply the heaviest, unsplit hides available.  They may or may not be from a bull.  Likewise, hides that are called steer hides are not necessarily from steers.  As I understand it, they are classified by weight and size when still in a raw state, and labeled accordingly.

I can verify that the best rawhide comes from an old skinny cow, the thinner the better.  The hide off a thin cow cuts up smooth and glassy, whereas a hide from a fat critter has too much grease in it to work up nice.  I have been told that the only difference between hides from black critters or hides from red critters (all else being equal) is that the red hides have a better, lighter color.  The black hides do produce a fairly dark rawhide and the only red hides I've had came from calves, so it isn't really a fair comparison.  Sorry, I guess we've gotten a long way from the Wade tree!

[Ken Nelson]

Aussies used to claim the hereford hides were tighter grained and like you said better color.  I don't do braid work but admire those that are good at it.   A good 64 strand bosal is a thing of beauty and good tool on a horse.

[Josh Ashman]

Thanks for the info Ken. 

[Rolandranch]

Thank you all for all the help.

Now I have another question about trees...

When I'm riding and my horse decides to get stupid and starts crow-hopping or something I like to bring my heels up to the shoulders for grip and to absorb the shock so I don't fly over the swells. However, all the saddles I've ridden in have their stirrup leathers is such a way that makes it pretty difficult to get the stirrups to where I'd like them. How could I modify my future saddle so the stirrup leathers can move up easily? Is it in the saddle making process or the tree making process?

Here's an old tree to show what I mean. (Also, does anyone know of someone who re-rawhides trees? This isn't the style of tree I want but I may build off of it someday or sell it.)

  

 

Would cutting the ground seat in such a way help?

Thanks,

-Ryan

Edited January 11, 2018 by Rolandranch

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Stirrup slots in the ground seat like you have drawn in the second picture would definitely help obtain some forward swing to your stirrup leathers.  However, the pattern of the rigging also plays a big part in how free they feel.  If most of the saddles you've ridden have locked your feet back behind you, chances are you've ridden mostly arena roping saddles.  Arena ropers don't want free swinging stirrups.   When I was in high school, I had an Arab mare that liked to crow hop every once in a while.  I was riding an old Hereford roping saddle at the time.  I could stick with that mare better bareback I think than in that saddle.  I didn't realize it at the time, but the saddle was positioning me to get dumped.  Once I switched to a saddle that I could get my feet ahead a little when she dropped her head, I could ride her easy.  A lot of the arena roping saddles have the rigging leather actually taking the place of the front bar riser, with a lot of leather behind the swell to keep that stirrup leather back there.  I've even seen binds to keep the leathers back on some roping saddles.  Most of the saddles I build go out to the country to guys who are going to do a little of everything on them, but not much arena roping.  They want something that they can ride in for hours, and I usually try to get as much freedom in the stirrup leathers as possible.  The style of the fork can have some effect also.  A cut-under style front like in your picture will allow for more forward swing than a swell with no cut-under that comes further down and further back on the bar.

On re-rawhiding the tree, unless it is a really high quality tree to start with, and/or the leather parts are still in good condition, I wouldn't bother.  If you have to replace all or most of the leather parts, you might as well start over with a decent tree and have something when you're done.  That however, is just my opinion.

[Goldshot Ron]

Ryan,

Do you want a bronc saddle or a working saddle?  I've read the replies to your tree questions; however, I keep wondering:  "what kind of saddle do you want to build?"  Do you want a ranch, roping,  trail, pleasure, mounted shooting, or reining/penning style saddle.  Forward swing is okay for some events, and there are always people that want a lot of forward swing; but that doesn't mean that it is the correct way to ride.  When laying out your stirrup leather slots, you have to take into account your rigging placement and rider BALANCE.  When you throw your legs forward, you are placing yourself off balance; thus, your body moves backward.  Being young you may have the strength to adjust and hang on, but wait till you age.  Balance will be your friend when you're in your 60's.

I've added some lines to your photo to show you that moving your stirrup leathers forward affect how you'll place your rigging plates.  My drawings show roughly a flatplate design.  You can see that if you cut into your front rigging position, you weaken the area that supports the front ring.  Forward swing can be increased with lighter leather for the rigging rings, but is this what you want?

Blue line is rigging plate.  Yellow line is the one you drew. and the green line is where the forward most edge should be for the stirrup leather slot.  As you can see, if you cut out the forward yellow line, you decrease the amount of leather supporting your ring.  If you ride up and over the rigging plate, you create a lump under your leg.  Take into account that the rear swell edge of the rigging plate is usually skived thinner than the front to begin with, but skiving it more to allow for forward swing weakens your plate.  I suggest you do a little more research in designs, styles, and rider placement.

Ron

Edited January 12, 2018 by Northmount
Removed dead space

[Rolandranch]

2 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Stirrup slots in the ground seat like you have drawn in the second picture would definitely help obtain some forward swing to your stirrup leathers.  However, the pattern of the rigging also plays a big part in how free they feel.  If most of the saddles you've ridden have locked your feet back behind you, chances are you've ridden mostly arena roping saddles.  Arena ropers don't want free swinging stirrups.   When I was in high school, I had an Arab mare that liked to crow hop every once in a while.  I was riding an old Hereford roping saddle at the time.  I could stick with that mare better bareback I think than in that saddle.  I didn't realize it at the time, but the saddle was positioning me to get dumped.  Once I switched to a saddle that I could get my feet ahead a little when she dropped her head, I could ride her easy.  A lot of the arena roping saddles have the rigging leather actually taking the place of the front bar riser, with a lot of leather behind the swell to keep that stirrup leather back there.  I've even seen binds to keep the leathers back on some roping saddles.  Most of the saddles I build go out to the country to guys who are going to do a little of everything on them, but not much arena roping.  They want something that they can ride in for hours, and I usually try to get as much freedom in the stirrup leathers as possible.  The style of the fork can have some effect also.  A cut-under style front like in your picture will allow for more forward swing than a swell with no cut-under that comes further down and further back on the bar.

On re-rawhiding the tree, unless it is a really high quality tree to start with, and/or the leather parts are still in good condition, I wouldn't bother.  If you have to replace all or most of the leather parts, you might as well start over with a decent tree and have something when you're done.  That however, is just my opinion.

To be honest, most of the saddles I've ridden in are roper saddles. That explains a lot. It's funny you mentioned your Arab mare crow hopping. A month or two ago, I was riding my Quarter Horse/Tennesee Walker mare without any riding aids. No saddle, no reins, nothing but a halter that didn't do me any good since I didn't have anything attached to it. Anyways, we were going down a dirt road at a slow gallop when a car pulled out ahead. I asked her to slow by placing my heels on her shoulders (that usually works) but she was kinda buddy sour that day and didn't want to slow so she dropped her head and began crow hopping. I grabbed a hand full of mane and rode it the best I could. I tried to imitate saddle bronc motions and it actually felt pretty smooth. She didn't twist or spin so I didn't fall off. I got some weird looks for the folks in the car so I just waved and smiled like it was all part of the show. Ok back to the saddle. What effect do you think wade swells will have on the forward swing of the stirrup leathers as opposed to a swell-fork? As far as the rawhiding goes, a saddlemaker friend of mine and my farrier say that it's a Bull Moose and worth saving but I haven't decided on what to do with it yet. 

-Ryan

[Rolandranch]

2 hours ago, Goldshot Ron said:

Ryan,

Do you want a bronc saddle or a working saddle?  I've read the replies to your tree questions; however, I keep wondering:  "what kind of saddle do you want to build?"  Do you want a ranch, roping,  trail, pleasure, mounted shooting, or reining/penning style saddle.  Forward swing is okay for some events, and there are always people that want a lot of forward swing; but that doesn't mean that it is the correct way to ride.  When laying out your stirrup leather slots, you have to take into account your rigging placement and rider BALANCE.  When you throw your legs forward, you are placing yourself off balance; thus, your body moves backward.  Being young you may have the strength to adjust and hang on, but wait till you age.  Balance will be your friend when you're in your 60's.

I've added some lines to your photo to show you that moving your stirrup leathers forward affect how you'll place your rigging plates.  My drawings show roughly a flatplate design.  You can see that if you cut into your front rigging position, you weaken the area that supports the front ring.  Forward swing can be increased with lighter leather for the rigging rings, but is this what you want?

Blue line is rigging plate.  Yellow line is the one you drew. and the green line is where the forward most edge should be for the stirrup leather slot.  As you can see, if you cut out the forward yellow line, you decrease the amount of leather supporting your ring.  If you ride up and over the rigging plate, you create a lump under your leg.  Take into account that the rear swell edge of the rigging plate is usually skived thinner than the front to begin with, but skiving it more to allow for forward swing weakens your plate.  I suggest you do a little more research in designs, styles, and rider placement.

Ron

Thanks, Ron. You actually nailed the kind of saddle I want to build. I want a working bronc saddle. I need a strong saddle to break horses, to pony young horses, and long trail rides. In other words, a saddle to handle everything about horse training. I'm still a young and a learning horse trainer so I agree that I do need to work more on my balance. For about a year I've been riding bareback at least one mile every day except on most Wednesdays and days I'm sick. Last week I was on a 7 mile bareback trail ride and I think it helps a lot with balance. When I grip the shoulders with my heels and lean back is when the horse's front is coming down from a jump or buck and I need to put my feet in front of me in order to catch myself. I've watched my brothers go over and into the dirt when trying to grip the horse's side instead of swinging their feet up and catching themselves. While on trail rides I'm often yelling at them, "Heels down and toes pointed out!" I see what you're saying about the rigging plate and skiving. From the top of my head, I would say I would skive it to get the free-swinging motion in the stirrup leathers but how much do you think it would affect the strength of the plate?

Thanks,

-Ryan

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

7 hours ago, Rolandranch said:

To be honest, most of the saddles I've ridden in are roper saddles. That explains a lot. It's funny you mentioned your Arab mare crow hopping. A month or two ago, I was riding my Quarter Horse/Tennesee Walker mare without any riding aids. No saddle, no reins, nothing but a halter that didn't do me any good since I didn't have anything attached to it. Anyways, we were going down a dirt road at a slow gallop when a car pulled out ahead. I asked her to slow by placing my heels on her shoulders (that usually works) but she was kinda buddy sour that day and didn't want to slow so she dropped her head and began crow hopping. I grabbed a hand full of mane and rode it the best I could. I tried to imitate saddle bronc motions and it actually felt pretty smooth. She didn't twist or spin so I didn't fall off. I got some weird looks for the folks in the car so I just waved and smiled like it was all part of the show. Ok back to the saddle. What effect do you think wade swells will have on the forward swing of the stirrup leathers as opposed to a swell-fork? As far as the rawhiding goes, a saddlemaker friend of mine and my farrier say that it's a Bull Moose and worth saving but I haven't decided on what to do with it yet. 

-Ryan

I bet you did get funny looks from the folks in the car!  I personally am not a fan of Wade saddles; I am a swell fork girl, always have been.  Part of that could be that I've never ridden a Wade that I built for myself.  I'm not very big, and the Wades I've ridden have been a couple inches too big for me, but I like my swell fork saddles, so I haven't been motivated to build a Wade for myself.  I think you should be able to get all the forward movement with a Wade that you would want.  Comparing it to a swell fork is a very general comparison, because there is so much difference in swell forks.  A front with a lot of undercut and leg cut, such as that Bull Moose, will allow for more forward swing than something with less undercut and no leg cut and a big rounded front, but even with those you can usually get all the forward swing you'd need.  Understand also, there is a difference between forward swing and forward hung.  You do want your saddle to be balanced in that your stirrups hang underneath you, and for the most part, stay there.  Stirrups hung too far forward can be as bad as hung too far back.  Use the slots in the underside of the bars as a guide for your top slots.  For me, the goal is to be able to swing ahead if needed.  People who have never ridden anything but western saddles don't realize how much they depend on that 3" stirrup leather to stabilize their legs until they ride an English saddle, and then their legs fly forward because they have been bracing with their feet against 3" stirrup leathers and 8" fenders and don't even realize it.  Bareback is great for balance, and I had to ride bareback until I was big enough to saddle my own horse, but try riding an English saddle once.  I won't say it's more difficult than riding bareback, but it is sure different, especially the so-called "Lane Fox" cutback flat saddles used on the show walkers and Saddlebreds, as there are no knee rolls or thigh blocks on those.