Threading my Singer 111w155

[Sewtoo]

Hi

I am hoping that someone out there has experience with threading up the Singer 111 w 155 ! And that person would be willing to explain to me how to do it. Years ago I hired a mechanic to come to my home to look at my machine and he said that it was fine, I just had it threaded incorrectly. He threaded well, and it was fine. I always changed thread by lifting the foot and pulling new thread through. Couple of years later, I broke the thread, pulling it through and had to rethread. Couldn't get it right. I bought a reprint of the manual and couldn't figure out the threading. I have tried many times to rethread and it always breaks when I sew.  The mechanic was quite old and has since passed away.  I really want to use the machine again! Can someone help?

[Wizcrafts]

 

[SARK9]

A page from a Singer manual for most of the 111W models-

I've noticed several instructions which suggest you need to run your thread under the pin in the tension discs...as far as I know, that is NOT part of the recommended thread path. That pin is there simply to prevent the tension discs and the other components from rotating.

 

-DC

[Uwe]

I cringed almost through the entire video. I wonder if that video is where that whole wrap-it-around-the-tension-disc-pin nonsense started. According to Youtube statistics, over 29,000 people may now believe that's the proper way to thread that class of machine. I've yet to find any evidence that manufacturers ever recommended this practice. That tension disc pin is indeed only there to keep the tensions discs from rotating, as @SARK9 said. 

And then Mr. Levy pulls the bobbin thread up through the presser foot hole, just to add to the confusion and to untangle the mess a few stitches later. 

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Uwe

[gottaknow]

1 hour ago, Uwe said:

I cringed almost through the entire video. I wonder if that video is where that whole wrap-it-around-the-tension-disc-pin nonsense started. According to Youtube statistics, over 29,000 people may now believe that's the proper way to thread that class of machine. I've yet to find any evidence that manufacturers ever recommended this practice. That tension disc pin is indeed only there to keep the tensions discs from rotating, as @SARK9 said. 

And then Mr. Levy pulls the bobbin thread up through the presser foot hole, just to add to the confusion and to untangle the mess a few stitches later. 

 

Keep in mind Uwe that manufacturers also don’t say to turn the needle towards the hook slightly, advance or retard hook timing, raise or lower needle bars slightly, put Teflon tape on presser feet, bevel the edges of feed dogs, wrap the thread twice around the tension disc, use a drop of oil in the bobbin case to control backlash, or even use that little pin at times for certain threads for thread control. The reason they don’t say all those things is because they’re not sitting in a factory where the variables change every day and you either solve problems creatively with logic and critical thinking, or production stops.

You don’t want to limit your skill set just because it’s not in a book. I’ve used that little pin plenty of times to solve a thread issue. I’ve also removed those pins, cut out the center bar on the discs so they spin and converted the tension unit to roller discs. None of that’s in any book. I’ve worked with some amazing mechanics In my 38 years in the business. They all had one thing in common. “A manual is simply a starting point to help understand the machine. It won’t think for you, but can stop you from thinking.”

Regards, Eric 

[RockyAussie]

1 hour ago, gottaknow said:

cut out the center bar on the discs so they spin and converted the tension unit to roller discs

That'll stop a single wearing thread track.

[RockyAussie]

10 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

 

Love the bobbin -thread inspection hole.

[Uwe]

If reading a manual stops somebody from thinking, then they weren't doing a whole lot of thinking to begin with. But in reality the unthinking and uncurious masses just want to be told what to do.

An original manufacturer's manual is one of the very few shared truths left out there. Most people would agree that the manual describes how the manufactured intended the machine to be used. Once you understand how things work then you can add variations and improvements to suit a specific situation. You'll know exactly what your are doing differently, and you'll know why you are doing it differently. If you don't (want to) understand how things work, then simply sticking with the manual is a workable approach.

It sure sounds like the very same needle has been in that machine since the dearly departed mechanic's last visit years ago. The machine may be threaded perfectly. The thread breaking issue may have nothing to do with the threading path. A few close-up pictures sure would help diagnose the problem.

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

Okay already; youse guys have had your laughs at me for sharing that video, trying to show the OP the correct thread path. If I get time tomorrow, I will film my own damn video on my Singer 111w103 and show the approved thread path.

[SARK9]

7 hours ago, gottaknow said:

[...] “A manual is simply a starting point to help understand the machine. It won’t think for you, but can stop you from thinking.”

Regards, Eric 

I think its pretty advisable to stick to the initial baseline starting points when assisting someone who has had to have a "mechanic" thread the machine for them. By the time you are attempting to get a repeatable balanced stitch in sandwich of 6 layers of 1000D Cordura around an .065 layer of ABS plastic crossing over a layer of 4088 webbing in two places while using glazed T-120 Kevlar thread top and bottom, you have probably figured out you have to *wing it* sometimes! My hat is off to the production process specialists like yourself who have to make this stuff happen quickly!

-DC

[gottaknow]

31 minutes ago, SARK9 said:

I think its pretty advisable to stick to the initial baseline starting points when assisting someone who has had to have a "mechanic" thread the machine for them. By the time you are attempting to get a repeatable balanced stitch in sandwich of 6 layers of 1000D Cordura around an .065 layer of ABS plastic crossing over a layer of 4088 webbing in two places while using glazed T-120 Kevlar thread top and bottom, you have probably figured out you have to *wing it* sometimes! My hat is off to the production process specialists like yourself who have to make this stuff happen quickly!

-DC

I’ve been posting less here for numerous reasons, one in particular is I moved from Spokane to Seattle to accept a new challenge in my career. The company I’m working for produces gloves for the military, perhaps the finest gloves I’ve ever seen. We often sew GoreTex, Urethane, and goat leather all together using T30 bonded nylon and a size 12 or 14 needle. A ball point needle, not a leather needle. That’s not in any book. I have two full time mechanics and 100,000 sq ft building to take care of. We are using old and new memory stitch machines to do repetitive sewing tasks to reduce costs and improve quality. We build custom jigs and do our own programming to suit our needs. I’m thankful I had experience with seam sealers over the years as all of our Gore fabrics get seam sealed. On gloves, that isn’t always easy. We do extensive in house testing to meet the mil specs. Of all the companies I’ve worked for, this one requires the most out of the box thinking. Which reminds me that I need to get in touch this week with Mr. Kovar about an idea I have. 

Regards, Eric 

[Yetibelle]

For a while I was threading the tension disk through to the tab, like in the video.  It clicks in there so naturally that your positive that is what it's meant for.  If your breaking thread, your needle and thread size may not be paired correctly, too big of thread for the needle maybe? What sizes are you working with?

 

[Wizcrafts]

I will do whatever is necessary to keep the top thread inside the business area of the top tension disks. Sometimes the thread (usually black) is extra twisty and tends to jump up in the disks, causing a total or partial loss of top tension.* This results in lockstitch knots laying on the bottom. I have a couple of ways I counteract this. One is feeding the top thread under the disk position pin. Doing this keeps the thread well centered, but increases the top tension, so I back off the tension nut until the knots are in the middle again. Alternately, I reposition the 3 hole thread guide on top to a vertical axis, with the holes facing down. By choosing different exit holes I am able to change the lay of the thread inside the top tension disks. The lower the exit hole, the stronger the downward pull.

Many of the manuals for older (out of production) industrial sewing machines were written before the advent of modern bonded nylon thread. Threading and tensioning was usually detailed using left twist glazed cotton thread that was extant at the time.

* The opposite problem with twisty thread is when it twists around thread guides, posts, disks, or the thread spool itself and causes sudden infinite top tension.

[Constabulary]

just to add something "official" Pic comes from a Singer 211 operators guide - tension unit is the same.

[suzelle]

On 3/12/2018 at 11:21 PM, Wizcrafts said:

I will do whatever is necessary to keep the top thread inside the business area of the top tension disks. Sometimes the thread (usually black) is extra twisty and tends to jump up in the disks, causing a total or partial loss of top tension.* This results in lockstitch knots laying on the bottom. I have a couple of ways I counteract this. One is feeding the top thread under the disk position pin. Doing this keeps the thread well centered, but increases the top tension, so I back off the tension nut until the knots are in the middle again. Alternately, I reposition the 3 hole thread guide on top to a vertical axis, with the holes facing down. By choosing different exit holes I am able to change the lay of the thread inside the top tension disks. The lower the exit hole, the stronger the downward pull.

Many of the manuals for older (out of production) industrial sewing machines were written before the advent of modern bonded nylon thread. Threading and tensioning was usually detailed using left twist glazed cotton thread that was extant at the time.

* The opposite problem with twisty thread is when it twists around thread guides, posts, disks, or the thread spool itself and causes sudden infinite top tension.

Wiz, I know this is an older post but wanted to say this:

As you know, the Consew Sewing Machine I call "Big Barb" (255RB-2) that I bought weeks ago has had me studying everything I can find in order to adjust the tensions, replace any missing or worn parts and get her stitching accurately as I help out in a friend's Auto Upholstery business. 

Anyhow, in working with the Consew 255RB-2 machine, I found out something very interesting. My Old Sewing Machine Mechanic who gave the machine a tune up a few weeks ago answered my questions about the machine. One question was about how I should be threading the machine. I told him I'd seen a video (Atlas Levy) on how to thread the first tension disc #6 in the diagram that Yetibelle posted above. I told him how this Sewing Machine Dealer (Atlas Levy) shows you how to wrap the thread around the post on disc #6. I also told him about what some of the instruction manual show you how to to it, without wrapping thread around the post.

So... this Mechanic had worked repairing Industrial machines at the same Sewing Machinne Repairs shop in Auburn, WA for 45 years. He is now 82 years old. He has worked on Singer, Pfaff, Consew, many others. He told me that the people who trained the Repairmen taught them to wrap the thread around that post on disc #6. He says that nowadays, they no longer teach you to do it that way. So he was familiar with both ways. Okay, there you go! Nobody is right! LOL. I guess if it works, it works!

 

[Yetibelle]

2 hours ago, suzelle said:

Wiz, I know this is an older post but wanted to say this:

As you know, the Consew Sewing Machine I call "Big Barb" (255RB-2) that I bought weeks ago has had me studying everything I can find in order to adjust the tensions, replace any missing or worn parts and get her stitching accurately as I help out in a friend's Auto Upholstery business. 

Anyhow, in working with the Consew 255RB-2 machine, I found out something very interesting. My Old Sewing Machine Mechanic who gave the machine a tune up a few weeks ago answered my questions about the machine. One question was about how I should be threading the machine. I told him I'd seen a video (Atlas Levy) on how to thread the first tension disc #6 in the diagram that Yetibelle posted above. I told him how this Sewing Machine Dealer (Atlas Levy) shows you how to wrap the thread around the post on disc #6. I also told him about what some of the instruction manual show you how to to it, without wrapping thread around the post.

So... this Mechanic had worked repairing Industrial machines at the same Sewing Machinne Repairs shop in Auburn, WA for 45 years. He is now 82 years old. He has worked on Singer, Pfaff, Consew, many others. He told me that the people who trained the Repairmen taught them to wrap the thread around that post on disc #6. He says that nowadays, they no longer teach you to do it that way. So he was familiar with both ways. Okay, there you go! Nobody is right! LOL. I guess if it works, it works!

 

Singer placed that tab in such a way it totally looks like its part of the thread path.  I know that most of us no longer use the thread lubricator, and the machines still sew correctly. We have figured out little tuning methods to balance the tension thread path (1-2-3) so that it works, sometimes that includes looping the tab.  Plus it helps that we have bonded nylon\poly thread that moves smoother than the older linen threads.  Its only a problem, when its not working, and thread on that little tab is annoying the thread controller spring and it starts to skip or bunch.  That is when we become our own enemy and start to tighten\loosen the tension nuts,  bobbin spring, then when all else fails start to look for timing videos on YouTube, when all we really had to do was unloop the tab.  

 

r 

 

[suzelle]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:08 AM, Yetibelle said:

Singer placed that tab in such a way it totally looks like its part of the thread path.  I know that most of us no longer use the thread lubricator, and the machines still sew correctly. We have figured out little tuning methods to balance the tension thread path (1-2-3) so that it works, sometimes that includes looping the tab.  Plus it helps that we have bonded nylon\poly thread that moves smoother than the older linen threads.  Its only a problem, when its not working, and thread on that little tab is annoying the thread controller spring and it starts to skip or bunch.  That is when we become our own enemy and start to tighten\loosen the tension nuts,  bobbin spring, then when all else fails start to look for timing videos on YouTube, when all we really had to do was unloop the tab.  

Yetibelle, you are sooooooo right! That is exactly what I did. I had a bad photo copy of an old manual and couldn't see how to thread it. I watched the Atlas Levy video showing you how to thread, wrapped my thread around that post (although it seemed odd to me) and had problems with looping on top. However, I also had problems in my bobbin area - due to funky aftermarket "U" sized bobbin that left too much gap in the bobbin case, plus a flat bobbin tension adjustment spring. Oh boy! Mess everywhere. My machine is stitching perfect now. I'm glad you descibed what you did about the old style threads that were available. I remember reading years ago about "Z" twist and "S" twist and knew there were differences betwen poly and nylon threads we currently use, and what was available back when these machines were originally manufactured. Wow! Lots to absorb there alone, right?

Great diagrams, by the way! Thank you! Next I'm going to try to restore an old Singer 127-W2 double needle. It's not my machine, my friend got it used and isn't sure what to do to get it running, but he wants to use it when he can get it running. He said there is a drawer (somewhere!) which is not attached to the machine. I have to find the drawer because he said it's got a lot of the parts for the machine! We'll see what there is to learn there! LOL. Coincidentally, that machine has two "dip sticks" and it lives in a forgotten corner my friend's Auto Interior shop. Funny thing is, I was trying so hard to learn more about the machines that had the oil gauges that my Consew 255RB has, and there was one sitting right behind me! I hope to post the pics soon, will probably do a separate thread and ask for help. It looks like a project. But hey, it's got some parts sitting in a drawer, somewhere! Yay!!! I think?

Edited March 25, 2022 by suzelle

[johnmcnamara629]

Using Bonded nylon thread In a 111 w or other walking foot.

You need bobbins that fit the bobbin recess correctly. Some are too small and allow the bobbin thread to escape.

To stop the bobbin overrunning sometimes a hand made textile friction disk washer  or multi point drag spring helps. I prefer the textile disk. Thin canvas or other material, you have to experiment, not too thick, the bobbin should not touch the bobbin retaining arm that would create excessive tension.

The thread release that allows the thread to travel under the throat plate must also be set correctly release the thread as the needle rises and the thread loop is pulled up. This setting can vary depending on your thread thickness.

Best way to check is to thread the machine and then using the same thickness of materials you intend to stich hand turn the machine for a maybe a dozen stitches first and then see if the thread travels around the bobbin case and is released without jerking. Check if the bobbin overruns excessively, if you see a loop pop up something is wrong with your settings. Make sure that the thread is correctly tensioned under the bobbin case tension spring. As a starting point set this tension to just enough to create a smooth (light pull) on a finger pinch.    

I would like to have posted another image of the upper threading Process the website would not allow it.

Best way to check is to thread the machine and then using the same thickness of materials you intend to stich hand turn the machine for a maybe a dozen stitches first and then see if the thread is jerking through the tension disks. When the take up arm rises to the top pulling the thread up from around the bobbin case and thus forming a new stitch as soon as the take up arm starts to fall the thread goes slack for a short time until  the slack is taken up by two mechanisms,

1 the rotating hook starts to pull the thread down into the throat plate and around the bobbin case, It has to take a fraction more thread because it is needed to form a new stitch. At that point there is quite high thread tension. This is where the tension spring (Not the tension disks at this time in the discussion) come into play. The setting of the tension spring is quite important its action is similar to a shock absorber in a car. It soothes out the flow of the thread and reduces the tension peak. It should be set just high enough to control the thread, Hand turning the machine on a test piece is a good start in setting it.

The thread tension disks are often set too high in my experience, usually because the hook release is wrong or the bottom tension is too high.
(I am assuming here that the Hook/Needle/feed timing is set correctly and that the correct needle is being used for the particular thread choice)

The above is how I approached a machine when the operator said it did not work when most of the time it was just a matter of getting the thread control right.

We sewed a lot of bonded nylon 

  

Edited March 25, 2022 by johnmcnamara629

[suzelle]

8 hours ago, johnmcnamara629 said:

 

John, Hello! Looks like your first post here. Anyhow, great to get your input here as well!

I'm gonna read all you have written a few times just to be sure I pick up what I can on the check spring thing, that is my next fine tuning on the machine!  You are right about the anti-backlash thing, to put something under the bobbin to keep it from spinning, right? I found an old piece of sandpaper and cut (2) pieces to fit the bottom of my bobbin case. It worked perfectly! Also, my bobbins that Seller gave me with the machine were aftermarket, didn't fit as mentioned. I bought the correct bobbins which seem to fit diameter wise, but look like they are sitting kind of low, I'm not sure. Anyhow, I popped the bobbins I had back in the machine with the sandpaper discs, since I'm not having issues with that any longer. When I have more time, I'll adjust it out to get correct bobbins to work like they should. I'm trying out official backlashing springs as I go. So far, I don't like one style. Going to try another. Thanks for tips!!!! Keep posting, good info!  

[Constabulary]

I´m not sure if sandpaper is the best solution.  For obvious reasons the last thing you want in your machine is sand.

Better use thin felt discs or bobbin case stars

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=490468+

I´m also using stars and older type Singer springs - not sure if they are still available:

https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/88778-singer-153w101-bobbin-case-is-stuck/?do=findComment&comment=607136

 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Constabulary

[johnmcnamara629]

Hi Suzelle

Hmmm Sandpaper?
To me a bit of a risk any sort of abrasive dust getting into the hook to bobbin holder bearing race is not a nice thought. A new Hirose Hook assembly is not cheap. Oh! and keep it oiled. The best oil by far is a light water white machine oil that contains Teflon.  Run don't walk to the shop to get some.

We also had a RESTA CNC Frame quilter Teflon Oil was essential for a continuous running machine like that. The hook ran significantly cooler. 

Please try a bit of canvas. It works fine.

We had three Singer style walking foot machines for heaver work a 111w Singer, a 1200mm long arm Adler and a Mitsubishi. The Singer was maybe 50 years older than the second two. The operators preferred it to the newer machines. We also had a few Pfaff Machines that used a different mechanism, faster but not as heavy duty.

Regards
John    

[suzelle]

9 hours ago, Constabulary said:

 

Okay Constabulary, thank you! That's exactly what I was hoping for, some clue as to what others are using. 

I did find some in my stash (like Singer) but mine are newer, very flimsy. I ended up throwing them out. The one you show in photo looks much sturdier! I like those. Which machine are you having to use them in?

Got some of the Star ones ordered a while ago and they arrived a few days ago, still have to try them in the machine and will do that on Monday.

The felt idea, I like that!!!! Wow, that would have been a quick fix!!!!

[suzelle]

9 hours ago, johnmcnamara629 said:

Hi Suzelle

Hmmm Sandpaper?
To me a bit of a risk any sort of abrasive dust getting into the hook to bobbin holder bearing race is not a nice thought.
Please try a bit of canvas. It works fine.

John, Thank you! I like the Canvas Idea too, got plenty of that laying around here. I do appreciate you sharing your experience!

So, what do you think of using this material to stop bobbin spin? (Just an idea since I noticed fisherman were using it for their reels)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224616408026?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D5e1fa7c7873e416ea0979ad6e66621ea%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D224616408026%26itm%3D224616408026%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A6dac2a95-ad19-11ec-a6ca-0a82b2046f20|parentrq%3Ac6d81e4d17f0a7b27cc6df0afffaa564|iid%3A1

I agree, it's a bit of a risk (sandpaper) and I did worry about my hook. But the sandpaper is quite smooth, worn dorn with use already. You are right, Hirose hook isn't cheap! Thankfully I priced those out already and I don't have to replace my hook. At least not yet!!!!! Yes, keeping it oiled. Machine is oiled at proper levels. Self oiling, but I also drop some on wherever it needs.I buy the Lily white oil or equivalent and get it by the Quart. I have (3) Industrial Embroidery machines that like to drink oil. LOL.

Edited March 26, 2022 by suzelle