What are these 2 machines called?

[Mocivnik]

First one is this:

 

It's used for separating leather layers. I have some hide, which I'd like to take off the inner layer, since it's quite bad to use in my projects.

PS: Does it exist the "big" as such to send through the 20-30cm wide sheet of leather? (~10 inches)

 

Second one:

I'd like to use this machine for cutting curves for leather projects I do (knife sheaths). I'd use it to cut ~3mm thick veg tan most of the time.

 

PS: What are normal prices for these 2 machines? I'm searching for used ones, NOT NEW.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Mocivnik

[Aven]

The top picture is a manual splitting machine, or a splitter.  The largest manual machine I know of is 8". 

The other picture is a Landis 5 in 1.  It's used by shoemakers and cobblers to cut thick soling material, skive, narrow splits and press the welt.  If you are looking just to cut thick leather, you don't need the 5 in 1, a 3 in 1 would work for you.  It cuts, splits and I think skives.  Neither one of them does a feather skive.  They leave a thicker edge.

I have seen 5 in 1 used go for any where from $350 to $1250.  The condition was any where from use it for a parts donor to completely restored.  And a higher price doesn't mean that it's all there and in good working order either.  I'd been looking for a 5 in 1 for two years that I could afford when I happened to stumble across one.  I didn't pay nearly as much as I had expected to pay, considering its condition.

I've seen 3 in 1's go for anywhere from $200 to $700.  Be aware they are heavy and shipping is going to be expensive if you are shipping from the US.

If you just want to cut thick leather this might work for you.  It's just a cutter, but its a lot cheaper than a 3 in 1.

[Matt S]

@Mocivnik, the first tool is a lap-skiver or pull-skiver. Most current production ones are only as large as 6, 7 or 8 inches (15-20 cm). Pulling a strip of leather any wider that 4" (10cm) is very difficult though -- the extra width is so that you have longer to use the machine between resharpenings. I don't really consider these to be splitters. Though they can do some splitting the leather isn't very well controlled and the depth of the split even at one particular setting is dependent on the angle that you pull the leather through. They are primarily intended for tapering the ends of straps, either for splicing or for turnbacks when putting on a buckle or ring. Price for a current production Chinese 6" pull skiver is €150-200, or €450ish for an Osborne. Used Chinese ones aren't very common but I sold one last month and it didn't reach £100. Used Dixons, Osbornes and such reach at least the price of a new Chinese.

To put a 20cm wide piece through a fixed-blade splitter you'll need either a crank-splitter or a motorised one. These are fairly rare in Europe and tend to only be 7" (17cm) wide, intended for splitting shoe soles. Price is around €1000 for a hand-cranked one. The Cowboy 8020 can split up to 20" (50cm) wide but it's a big machine and the head alone cost $2000 last time I priced one.

Fixed-blade splitters are really any when taking at least 1mm off a stiff leather. Any finer thinning and an floppy leathers need a moving blade, like maybe a bell-knife skiver or a band-knife splitter. Band-knife splitters are in the €3000+ region second-hand. You'll need a forklift to move it and 3-phase power to run it.

The second machine, as @Aven rightly says, is known as a "3-in-1" or "5-in-1" machine in the US depending on how  many functions it has. I don't know if there is really a settled word in my country but in Europe and to an extent in the UK it's known as a ranger (for ranging shoe soles). I've seen prices from as little as £10 to the triple digits, depending on whether the seller knows what it is. I tried one once and didn't get on with it, it left a lot of marks on the leather and didn't leave a clean edge. Soling leather is very tough stuff, I completely understand why there's a machine for it. 3mm veg tan is no big trouble to cut with a knife.

[Mocivnik]

On 1. 5. 2018 at 4:38 AM, Aven said:

The top picture is a manual splitting machine, or a splitter.  The largest manual machine I know of is 8". 

The other picture is a Landis 5 in 1.  It's used by shoemakers and cobblers to cut thick soling material, skive, narrow splits and press the welt.  If you are looking just to cut thick leather, you don't need the 5 in 1, a 3 in 1 would work for you.  It cuts, splits and I think skives.  Neither one of them does a feather skive.  They leave a thicker edge.

I have seen 5 in 1 used go for any where from $350 to $1250.  The condition was any where from use it for a parts donor to completely restored.  And a higher price doesn't mean that it's all there and in good working order either.  I'd been looking for a 5 in 1 for two years that I could afford when I happened to stumble across one.  I didn't pay nearly as much as I had expected to pay, considering its condition.

I've seen 3 in 1's go for anywhere from $200 to $700.  Be aware they are heavy and shipping is going to be expensive if you are shipping from the US.

If you just want to cut thick leather this might work for you.  It's just a cutter, but its a lot cheaper than a 3 in 1.

Thank you, this really helps me understand more!

 

Yes, I actually just need something to cut 2.5-3.5mm thick leather, because I really dislike cutting with knives the large curves at knife sheats.

Beside that, i'd really like to have also a splitter. I'm getting my leather quite cheap, but it's not the best on back side (i get half for 100€).

I'd really like to get that 3 in 1, but they're all really expensive..I thought I could get some old (but still usefull for <200$).

But if I could get a cutter for under 100$, that'd be even waaaaaaay better.

[Mocivnik]

On 1. 5. 2018 at 11:50 AM, Matt S said:

@Mocivnik, the first tool is a lap-skiver or pull-skiver. Most current production ones are only as large as 6, 7 or 8 inches (15-20 cm). Pulling a strip of leather any wider that 4" (10cm) is very difficult though -- the extra width is so that you have longer to use the machine between resharpenings. I don't really consider these to be splitters. Though they can do some splitting the leather isn't very well controlled and the depth of the split even at one particular setting is dependent on the angle that you pull the leather through. They are primarily intended for tapering the ends of straps, either for splicing or for turnbacks when putting on a buckle or ring. Price for a current production Chinese 6" pull skiver is €150-200, or €450ish for an Osborne. Used Chinese ones aren't very common but I sold one last month and it didn't reach £100. Used Dixons, Osbornes and such reach at least the price of a new Chinese.

To put a 20cm wide piece through a fixed-blade splitter you'll need either a crank-splitter or a motorised one. These are fairly rare in Europe and tend to only be 7" (17cm) wide, intended for splitting shoe soles. Price is around €1000 for a hand-cranked one. The Cowboy 8020 can split up to 20" (50cm) wide but it's a big machine and the head alone cost $2000 last time I priced one.

Fixed-blade splitters are really any when taking at least 1mm off a stiff leather. Any finer thinning and an floppy leathers need a moving blade, like maybe a bell-knife skiver or a band-knife splitter. Band-knife splitters are in the €3000+ region second-hand. You'll need a forklift to move it and 3-phase power to run it.

The second machine, as @Aven rightly says, is known as a "3-in-1" or "5-in-1" machine in the US depending on how  many functions it has. I don't know if there is really a settled word in my country but in Europe and to an extent in the UK it's known as a ranger (for ranging shoe soles). I've seen prices from as little as £10 to the triple digits, depending on whether the seller knows what it is. I tried one once and didn't get on with it, it left a lot of marks on the leather and didn't leave a clean edge. Soling leather is very tough stuff, I completely understand why there's a machine for it. 3mm veg tan is no big trouble to cut with a knife.

Whoa! That first chapter blew my mind! I thought that any skiver shorter than 20cm (8") is just for belts and that there are waaaay wider...but OK, thanks!

3mm veg tan really isn't a problem to cut with knife, but I'm having difficulties at curves - axe and knife sheaths. Having difficulties at making beautiful curves and that's what's bothering me. I though I could do it better with 3 in 1.

 

[Matt S]

On 5/8/2018 at 2:57 PM, Mocivnik said:

3mm veg tan really isn't a problem to cut with knife, but I'm having difficulties at curves - axe and knife sheaths. Having difficulties at making beautiful curves and that's what's bothering me. I though I could do it better with 3 in 1.

 

What sort of knife are you using? I find that a Stanley knife is not much good for curves, but a properly sharp head knife works great. You don't need an expensive one, £15-20 gets you a basic one that works fine after sharpening. Alternatively for inside curves you can use hole punches. You can also get half-round or quarter-round punches in different radii for inside or outside curves.

[Mocivnik]

37 minutes ago, Matt S said:

What sort of knife are you using? I find that a Stanley knife is not much good for curves, but a properly sharp head knife works great. You don't need an expensive one, £15-20 gets you a basic one that works fine after sharpening. Alternatively for inside curves you can use hole punches. You can also get half-round or quarter-round punches in different radii for inside or outside curves.

An utility knife, very simmilar to the one on photo below.

I was searching for just what you've written, the head knfie, but I cannot find any below 30$ (which are from china).

I also have several punches for inside curves, but I often need curves such as 100mm radius or even more. I need a proper head knife, but I cannot find a proper one for reasonable price.

 

[Matt S]

15 minutes ago, Mocivnik said:

An utility knife, very simmilar to the one on photo below.

I was searching for just what you've written, the head knfie, but I cannot find any below 30$ (which are from china).

I also have several punches for inside curves, but I often need curves such as 100mm radius or even more. I need a proper head knife, but I cannot find a proper one for reasonable price.

Those utility knives are okay for straight cuts, but I find them very difficult for curves. The least expensive round head knife I have found is this one, a Barnsley sold by Abbey England, for £16+VAT: http://abbeyengland.com/Store/txtSearch/knife/ProductID/76762 I use one of these daily and, once sharpened, mine is excellent.

I have Chinese quarter-round punches up to 50mm radius. Any larger and I'd think you'd have to look at clicker dies.

[ray123]

i have a 3 and 1 for sale if your interested.one is a landis the other is a champion.

[Mocivnik]

sent a pm

[Silverd]

I have a Landis 5 in 1 that I use to skive 2.5 mm veg tan and thicker..  When I purchased this vintage machine it was advertised as reconditioned.  It had been repainted but not reconditioned. I dismantled, cleaned and properly lubricated the components before reassembling.  I own a Tormek blade sharpening system and hollow ground the skiving blade to factory specs which is 10 deg each side.  The blade being made of a high carbon content steel took an edge very well and slices through leather effortlessly.  The machine can be set up to edge skive exactly how I like up to about 1.5" wide.  The top feed roller has traction grooves which will leave an imprint.  To deal with this I place a sheet of paper on top of the leather when that surface will show in the final work.  To successfully use the machine for shape cutting or slitting leather two things should be present. A non serrated cutting wheel and an edge guide attachment.  The guide can be fashioned easily if not included and the cutting wheels are available through Landis international in Canada for around  $100.00. Talk to Patrick.

If you actually buy a Landis 5 in one or 3 in one,  I recommend it be in good original unreconditioned condition as I don' think most folks really understand how to successfully do this work yet want to charge for it.  I also purchased a refirbished American Co spitter that was refurbished and it was much the same.

Hope this helps

Silverd

 

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Silverd
Word spell

[Aven]

1 hour ago, Silverd said:

I have a Landis 5 in 1 that I use to skive 2.5 mm veg tan and thicker..  When I purchased this vintage machine it was advertised as reconditioned.  It had been repainted but not reconditioned. I dismantled, cleaned and properly lubricated the components before reassembling.  I own a Tormek blade sharpening system and hollow ground the skiving blade to factory specs which is 10 deg each side.  The blade being made of a high carbon content steel took an edge very well and slices through leather effortlessly.  The machine can be set up to edge skive exactly how I like up to about 1.5" wide.  The top feed roller has traction grooves which will leave an imprint.  To deal with this I place a sheet of paper on top of the leather when that surface will show in the final work.  To successfully use the machine for shape cutting or slitting leather two things should be present. A non serrated cutting wheel and an edge guide attachment.  The guide can be fashioned easily if not included and the cutting wheels are available through Landis international in Canada for around  $100.00. Talk to Patrick.

If you actually buy a Landis 5 in one or 3 in one,  I recommend it be in good original unreconditioned condition as I don' think most folks really understand how to successfully do this work yet want to charge for it.  I also purchased a refirbished American Co spitter that was refurbished and it was much the same.

Hope this helps

Silverd

 

 

Silverd, any chance you have a manual for the 5 in 1?  I've look high and low for one and have come up empty handed.

[Silverd]

Ive read them on line but I didn't down load it.  That's where I got the 10 degree each side skiver blade angle info.  I think you contact Patrick at Landis International.  He may have something.  Fyi.  What I read did not include much set up info.  

Landis has truely refirbished 3 n 1 machines for sale but all things considered a Chinese Fortuna style machine really is a better way to go.

Siverd

[RockyAussie]

7 hours ago, Silverd said:

all things considered a Chinese Fortuna style machine really is a better way to go.

I have to agree. I still have some of the Landis rough rounder and skiving machinery and never use them these days.They are very good if you want to cut hard sole leather but pretty rough for most leatherwork IMHO. For cutting knife sheaths I usually cut to shape one side first then attach the top side oversize and then trim it to size. A follow up sand and its done. Here a tube video I did awhile back and theres a couple more might pay to check out as well-

 

[David Bruce]

On 6/6/2018 at 5:01 AM, RockyAussie said:

I have to agree. I still have some of the Landis rough rounder and skiving machinery and never use them these days.They are very good if you want to cut hard sole leather but pretty rough for most leatherwork IMHO. For cutting knife sheaths I usually cut to shape one side first then attach the top side oversize and then trim it to size. A follow up sand and its done. Here a tube video I did awhile back and theres a couple more might pay to check out as well-

 

I have a couple questions for you regarding Fortuna parts. First, what presser feet do you recommend? Second, where can I find replacement belts? Thanks in advance.

[Silverd]

Nice work.  Ive watched this before.  I use my 5 in 1 but only the skiver to prep 10-12oz harness straps for buckle returns.  It must say it works well for that.  Limited applications otherwise.

 

Silverd

[RockyAussie]

On 06/07/2018 at 10:50 AM, David Bruce said:

I have a couple questions for you regarding Fortuna parts. First, what presser feet do you recommend? Second, where can I find replacement belts? Thanks in advance.

Hey David, Congratulations on your excellent purchase decision with a Fortuna. As I am way over the other side of the pond where I get parts for them would not be much use to you. I would recommend you to have a look on this Campbell Randall page.  https://campbell-randall.com/shop/fav-fratelli-alberti?page=2

I have a FAV AV2 machine that the presser feet and many other  parts can interchange with on the Fortuna.  I tend to make up my own presser feet rollers etc but the 30mm roller FAV -1498C at the top of the page on this link would be a good start I think. I would get a new belt that runs the sharpening stone while I as it, as they wear out occasionally and it pays to have a spare ready when you need it. Lastly just a tip if you are wanting to do any very thin soft leather ...after sharpening get a strip of mellow veg and very very slowly run it through a skive. This cleans up any fine roughness and is a bit like stropping the blade. Have fun.

Brian

[David Bruce]

On 7/7/2018 at 12:24 AM, RockyAussie said:

Hey David, Congratulations on your excellent purchase decision with a Fortuna. As I am way over the other side of the pond where I get parts for them would not be much use to you. I would recommend you to have a look on this Campbell Randall page.  https://campbell-randall.com/shop/fav-fratelli-alberti?page=2

I have a FAV AV2 machine that the presser feet and many other  parts can interchange with on the Fortuna.  I tend to make up my own presser feet rollers etc but the 30mm roller FAV -1498C at the top of the page on this link would be a good start I think. I would get a new belt that runs the sharpening stone while I as it, as they wear out occasionally and it pays to have a spare ready when you need it. Lastly just a tip if you are wanting to do any very thin soft leather ...after sharpening get a strip of mellow veg and very very slowly run it through a skive. This cleans up any fine roughness and is a bit like stropping the blade. Have fun.

Brian

Brian, Thanks for the tips. I sent an email to Fortuna and will give Campbell a call once I hear back. I've been looking for one of these machines for quite awhile and am very pleased to finally own one, (with the aspirator dust collector no less). I've only had it a few days and so far it's done great with the light weight leathers that I've put through it (Horween's bison, chromexcel and buccaneer). I do want a steel feed roll and a roller presser foot for it though. I have the original manual and spare parts list which lists many versions of these so hopefully, Fortuna can clarify what I need. My machine is a 50SAG3.