Invisible stitch from both sides of leather

[WastelandOuterwear]

So my mentor has been insistant that i must sew this bag through the edges of the leather like wo, similar to a butt stitch but the idea is for it to be invisible on both sides... I really dont even think that is possible since we live on the land of physics. What do you guys think

 

Below is what the technique is based off of. I personally think those tabs are folded inward then sewn instead of thinking that those arnt even tabs and are acually the middle thickness of the leather.

 

[KingsCountyLeather]

 

[RockyAussie]

Is your mentor a sadist?  Is there any good reason to be able to achieve doing this method? The threads will have to go straight when going across to tension correctly not on an angle as in your picture...Sorry.

[plinkercases]

In the Stohlman art of hand sewing there is a hidden stich technique but used to wrap a covering piece around the open edge of multiple layers on a saddles and even then only one side of the stitch is hidden. It involves essentially making a flap in the leather into which you set the stitch and then bone the flap back down over the stiches as in the video. However if you are sewing edge butted to edge as it appears you want to you would need to is a flap on both sides of the  butt seam on the top and then use your technique but from the top so the stitching works against the way the seam wants to open...... good luck..... and mean mentor.... should the mentor not show you how by...mentoring?

 

[WastelandOuterwear]

On 4/21/2018 at 10:05 PM, plinkercases said:

In the Stohlman art of hand sewing there is a hidden stich technique but used to wrap a covering piece around the open edge of multiple layers on a saddles and even then only one side of the stitch is hidden. It involves essentially making a flap in the leather into which you set the stitch and then bone the flap back down over the stiches as in the video. However if you are sewing edge butted to edge as it appears you want to you would need to is a flap on both sides of the  butt seam on the top and then use your technique but from the top so the stitching works against the way the seam wants to open...... good luck..... and mean mentor.... should the mentor not show you how by...mentoring?

 

Well i suggested doing it that way, but i absolutely must do it that way shown. He refuses i do it any other way, And he doesnt seem to know how to do it which is frustrating.

 

But im frustrated cause the stitch doesnt go with this bag since the pattern has been changed 4 times. And i work really hard researching and what not on the tooling and size and i dont want ugly stitches that dont work, itd feel like a waste of 3 months of research. But i cannot figure out a way to draw it togeather using this method. It just doesnt seem too work.

[WastelandOuterwear]

On 4/21/2018 at 8:42 PM, RockyAussie said:

Is your mentor a sadist?  Is there any good reason to be able to achieve doing this method? The threads will have to go straight when going across to tension correctly not on an angle as in your picture...Sorry.

Idk the idea is that, ide be able to do something noone else can do therefore im special or somethng. Problem is though, he doesnt know how to do it, its just simply doesnt work and its just a bas stitch in strength and practicality, and his research isnt nearly as extensive since i have personally called the irish dublin museum and they told me how it was stitch, but he blew off saying "they arnt leather workers so how could they know what they are talking about"....

 

Hes not a bad leatherworker by any means but im currently at a standstill in my apprenticeship because of this stitch.

Edited April 24, 2018 by WastelandOuterwear

[KingsCountyLeather]

I could email Nigel Armitage and ask him if he knows? He has often suggested people to email any problems you have. He is also a member here but doesn’t visit the site all the time @Dangerous Beans

[Matt S]

@WastelandOuterwear I don't know your mentor from Adam. He may be encouraging you to figure it out for yourself as an exercise in perseverance, lateral thinking and problem solving. That is the more generous explanation I can think of. I can think of one or two possible solutions to this puzzle but I think that I'll hold off posting them until I've tried them out and you've tried a few more approaches. Maybe post them here for specific feedback and suggestions, and to help other people trying out this technique.

Out of interest, what qualifies him as a mentor/teacher? Teaching is a specific skillset and there are a lot of people who are very skilled at all sorts of things who can't teach for toffee.

[WastelandOuterwear]

10 minutes ago, Matt S said:

@WastelandOuterwear I don't know your mentor from Adam. He may be encouraging you to figure it out for yourself as an exercise in perseverance, lateral thinking and problem solving. That is the more generous explanation I can think of. I can think of one or two possible solutions to this puzzle but I think that I'll hold off posting them until I've tried them out and you've tried a few more approaches. Maybe post them here for specific feedback and suggestions, and to help other people trying out this technique.

Out of interest, what qualifies him as a mentor/teacher? Teaching is a specific skillset and there are a lot of people who are very skilled at all sorts of things who can't teach for toffee.

Well that is what i was thinking, i have a few diffrent ways of doing said technique, and ill post them showing the varying degrees of success/failure. But other than experiance and having past apprentices i really couldnt tell ya haha.

[koreric75]

I'd start out by finding something more pliable and same thickness that you can practice getting the angle right with an awl and focus on the stitch itself vs wrestling with that very thick and stiff looking leather, once you get that looking good use scrap pieces of the same type of leather, once you have those stitched looking good you should have the confidence of stitching your bag and not damaging beyond repair or having to redo all the work. Once the stitches are done I'm still trying to picture what the final look is assembled, but if skived at a miter, and making the stitch that goes between holes on the same side, when pulled tight you should only possibly see small holes on the flesh side...?

[WastelandOuterwear]

44 minutes ago, KingsCountyLeather said:

I could email Nigel Armitage and ask him if he knows? He has often suggested people to email any problems you have. He is also a member here but doesn’t visit the site all the time @Dangerous Beans

That would be great, uh cause i wpuld like to figure it out for future projects

[Double Daddy]

29 minutes ago, WastelandOuterwear said:

But other than experiance and having past apprentices i really couldnt tell ya haha.

Seek out his past apprentices (references) and see if they have any guidance for this particular task...not give-aways, mind you, because that would be cheating and you wouldn't learn anything...just suggestions since the "master" doesn't seem too keen on mentoring at this phase of your instruction.

Following this to see where the rabbit hole leads...

Edited April 24, 2018 by Double Daddy

[WastelandOuterwear]

25 minutes ago, koreric75 said:

I'd start out by finding something more pliable and same thickness that you can practice getting the angle right with an awl and focus on the stitch itself vs wrestling with that very thick and stiff looking leather, once you get that looking good use scrap pieces of the same type of leather, once you have those stitched looking good you should have the confidence of stitching your bag and not damaging beyond repair or having to redo all the work. Once the stitches are done I'm still trying to picture what the final look is assembled, but if skived at a miter, and making the stitch that goes between holes on the same side, when pulled tight you should only possibly see small holes on the flesh side...?

Mitering might be a vaible idea but the two peices must not at all show thread. But are you also suggesting at the same time a tunnel stitch going inbetween the two mitered leather edges.

4 minutes ago, Double Daddy said:

Seek out his past apprentices (references) and see if they have any guidance for this particular task...not give-aways, mind you, because that would be cheating and you wouldn't learn anything...just suggestions since the "master" doesn't seem too keen on mentoring at this phase of your instruction.

Following this to see where the rabbit hole leads...

Ooh great idea.

[KingsCountyLeather]

23 minutes ago, WastelandOuterwear said:

I could email Nigel Armitage

I’m sorry... that should have read “I would email Nigel Armitage”  If I we’re you.

Nigel doesn’t know me from Adam!  

 

[WastelandOuterwear]

8 minutes ago, KingsCountyLeather said:

I’m sorry... that should have read “I would email Nigel Armitage”  If I we’re you.

Nigel doesn’t know me from Adam!  

 

Oh okay ill email him then. Im crazy unfocused today haha

[rodneywt1180b]

It's an interesting technique, similar to a ladder stitch in fabric sewing but fabric has a flap that's turned under.  The needle and thread doesn't need to be buried in the material on the back side.

I'm pretty far from being an expert but would it be possible with a very tightly curved needle and a matching awl?

Reading the article you posted this looks like a rare technique.  Is there a practical reason why the bag must be done this way?  Authenticity for re-enactment, something like that maybe?

Also, (purely selfish here) do you have more pictures?  I would like to see more of it please.

 

[RockyAussie]

10 hours ago, WastelandOuterwear said:

Idk the idea is that, ide be able to do something noone else can do therefore im special or somethng. Problem is though, he doesnt know how to do it, its just simply doesnt work and its just a bas stitch in strength and practicality, and his research isnt nearly as extensive since i have personally called the irish dublin museum and they told me how it was stitch, but he blew off saying "they arnt leather workers so how could they know what they are talking about"....

 

Hes not a bad leatherworker by any means but im currently at a standstill in my apprenticeship because of this stitch.

Well.....That sucks!!!!. I will have to say that from what I can read there, the author does not really know how its done either. As far as I can make out in the reading it does not say the back would have no visible stitching and the picture provided looks to me that it would have back visible stitching. AT any rate I have below my effort of what it is I think you are trying to do. As I don't do this type of construction normally I have just grabbed a couple of tools and did a little modifying for the purpose. I am sorry if this is leads you off track but if the same end result is achieved should it matter?

1st. I tried the bigger hook in this pick and hook set and found it was better with the lesser hook shown.

Next I carefully bent a needle as I had none here that are curved. Broke the tip off so had to bend up a little further. Worked alright.

Next I marked a line down the middle to help keep centred and for picture purposes.

Here shows the technique and remember only every second hole needs to go through on each side.

Next I marked out the joining piece across to keep the pull of stitches in line.

Having done the opposite sides holes I did the bottom hole 2 in a row to start of even.

Not perfect straight but it'll do for now.

I will post more later due to picture loading size restriction.

 

[RockyAussie]

OK here's the rest.

Before laying down and pulling up tight (easier than I thought) I would put some glue on the edges. Contact glue can be warmed up and with a bit of pressing down you would have next to no visible join.I did not glue or press in this example.

Pull the end threads tight and presto. Back view shown below

Front view

I gotta get to work now so please let me know if that helps

Brian

[fredk]

most excellent

[KingsCountyLeather]

Wow! Thats very impressive.

I wouldn’t think it would be a very strong seam when the Thread doesn’t catch the top grain, but a very interesting technique.

[RockyAussie]

3 hours ago, fredk said:

most excellent

Thanks @fredk

 

1 hour ago, KingsCountyLeather said:

Wow! Thats very impressive.

I wouldn’t think it would be a very strong seam when the Thread doesn’t catch the top grain, but a very interesting technique.

I would have agreed with you with regards to the thread not catching the top grain once. I was sure that the top grain was stronger and stated so in an earlier post awhile back and was shocked to see some scientific study showed there was virtually no measurable difference between the two. I thought bull..... and split down some leather to get equal thickness and went ahead and broke both pieces looped over some heavy fish scales I have here. Did it a heap of times and could not prove them wrong!!!?.

I guess in this case the longer the pieces being joined the stronger it will be but for interest sake I will tie it off and put it to the hanging weight test. I can say it is a lot stronger a join than most would think, and given that it is only snaking back and forth from side to side I think if you did the same over and under up and across it would not be any better. I will get back with some test results over the next couple of days.

As for it being an very interesting technique............. I think this mentor might be a Tor- mentor. I just hope that all of that fine bag work above we get to see finished of and posted here.

[koreric75]

16 hours ago, WastelandOuterwear said:

Mitering might be a vaible idea but the two peices must not at all show thread. But are you also suggesting at the same time a tunnel stitch going inbetween the two mitered leather edges.

Yes, a mitered edge and what i would call a "slipstitch" shown below, difference is the leather edge is thick enough to not require a turned edge, but also so thick and on a corner or edge for a gusset that joining without a miter may make it very difficult to get the edges pulled tight without ripping out your stitches...

 

looks like the pic link didn't work so here is the site i found that has a good close up of the idea http://www.squishycutedesigns.com/ladder-stitch/

Edited April 25, 2018 by koreric75
added site ref

[WastelandOuterwear]

16 hours ago, rodneywt1180b said:

It's an interesting technique, similar to a ladder stitch in fabric sewing but fabric has a flap that's turned under.  The needle and thread doesn't need to be buried in the material on the back side.

I'm pretty far from being an expert but would it be possible with a very tightly curved needle and a matching awl?

Reading the article you posted this looks like a rare technique.  Is there a practical reason why the bag must be done this way?  Authenticity for re-enactment, something like that maybe?

Also, (purely selfish here) do you have more pictures?  I would like to see more of it please.

 

 

This is the braec moedoic "reproduction" that i am working on. Its a very close copy to the one below.

9 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Well.....That sucks!!!!. I will have to say that from what I can read there, the author does not really know how its done either. As far as I can make out in the reading it does not say the back would have no visible stitching and the picture provided looks to me that it would have back visible stitching. AT any rate I have below my effort of what it is I think you are trying to do. As I don't do this type of construction normally I have just grabbed a couple of tools and did a little modifying for the purpose. I am sorry if this is leads you off track but if the same end result is achieved should it matter?

1st. I tried the bigger hook in this pick and hook set and found it was better with the lesser hook shown.

Next I carefully bent a needle as I had none here that are curved. Broke the tip off so had to bend up a little further. Worked alright.

Next I marked a line down the middle to help keep centred and for picture purposes.

Here shows the technique and remember only every second hole needs to go through on each side.

Next I marked out the joining piece across to keep the pull of stitches in line.

Having done the opposite sides holes I did the bottom hole 2 in a row to start of even.

Not perfect straight but it'll do for now.

I will post more later due to picture loading size restriction.

 

This is what i needed from the post haha. Thank you very much, but the next problem us what is preventing the seam from popping out and exposing the thread? Below are the tools i was using, i found it easier to make needles out of wire vs steel ones. And i dont have a round curved awl so i had to make one out of copper. But the next issue is that. Would a stitch such as this be used in dark ages ireland, becauae i have found no evidence to support it, and would it even be a vaible option?

 

[gmace99]

The pictures above show the leather not going through the top grain.  This will still be a strong stitch.  I use a stitch  called a backing stich on English style saddles.  This does not go through the top grain.  We put a lot of stress on this when pulling it onto the saddle tree.

The stitch shown in the pictures will do the job.  A box stitch will also do it.

 

My hidden stitch done in the UKSaddlery video might top  be the stitch you need

[KingsCountyLeather]

4 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

I would have agreed with you with regards to the thread not catching the top grain once. I was sure that the top grain was stronger and stated so in an earlier post awhile back and was shocked to see some scientific study showed there was virtually no measurable difference between the two. I thought bull..... and split down some leather to get equal thickness and went ahead and broke both pieces looped over some heavy fish scales I have here. Did it a heap of times and could not prove them wrong!!!?.

I guess in this case the longer the pieces being joined the stronger it will be but for interest sake I will tie it off and put it to the hanging weight test. I can say it is a lot stronger a join than most would think, and given that it is only snaking back and forth from side to side I think if you did the same over and under up and across it would not be any better. I will get back with some test results over the next couple of days.

That’s very interesting to know.  I even thought when using split leather that the stitching wouldn’t last over time because it didn’t have a top grain. Would like to read how your test goes. Thanks.