Sewing machine

[RJLamie]

I’m looking at buying a vintage sewing machine the can sew two pieces of 4oz leather together.  I want something used but will do the job for at least a few hand bags.  Any recommendations on what to look for and what to avoid in vintage sewing machines?

[Northmount]

@RJLamie moved your post to Leather Sewing Machines (instead of How do I do That.)  Likely to get more visibility from sewing machine people here.  Have you looked in Marketplace under used and like new sewing machines?

Tom

[dikman]

Look up the top at the last sticky (by Wiz). It should give you a bit of an insight into the subject. Basically, you're looking at a walking foot machine, either flat bed or cylinder arm (less common used) and ideally with a servo motor - if you're new to industrial machines a clutch motor is likely to scare the socks off you the first time you use it! You don't need a heavy duty machine, something like a Singer 111/211 class, Consew 206, Seiko SDH series, Pfaff 335 (or it's flatbed equivalent, can't remember the no.) etc. There are, of course, many more models than these. I'm assuming you want to use #69 or #138 thread, which is the heaviest these machines can use.

There have been many posts asking the same basic question, it might help you to understand a bit more if you look these up here. If you find a used one then you need to understand a bit about them to know what to look for, best thing is to ask here if you do find something. Unfortunately, industrial sewing machines are a complex subject.

Oh, one word of advice if you go looking online - if you see an ad for "industrial quality", "semi-industrial" etc be cautious as there are sellers who use these terms to try and sell old Singers (in particular) that are nothing more than domestic machines. It's either an industrial sewing machine or it isn't, no ifs, buts or maybes.

Edited May 11, 2018 by dikman

[Wizcrafts]

9 hours ago, RJLamie said:

I’m looking at buying a vintage sewing machine the can sew two pieces of 4oz leather together.  I want something used but will do the job for at least a few hand bags.  Any recommendations on what to look for and what to avoid in vintage sewing machines?

Basically, avoid home style (aka: domestic) sewing machines. They are not good at sewing leather, except for about 5-6 ounces (chaps). All of them are bottom feed only, via feed dogs. Leather is much denser than cloth and takes much more foot pressure to hold it down as the needle and thread ascends. If the pressure spring isn't strong enough to hold down the leather you'll get skipped stitches. The added pressure needed to hold down the leather often causes to top layer to drag out of sync with the bottom layer. Also, the largest commonly sold needle size for domestic sewing machines is #18 (aka: 110), limiting the machine to no more than #69 (T70) bonded thread. This is strong enough for thin leather goods, like leather skirts and wallet interiors, but is a little weak for 1/8 inch thick hand bags.

While buying a vintage domestic sewing machine for leather is at best iffy, getting an industrial walking foot machine is just about a sure thing (up to its thickness and thread handling limits).

[dikman]

Ah, I just assumed you meant an industrial machine but I missed the fact that when you said "vintage" you could have been referring to domestic machines, as Wiz has picked up on. Don't even think about a domestic machine as no matter how good it is you will have problems sewing leather.

[RJLamie]

I’m not necessarily looking for industrial.  I’m looking I guess general information on what to look for in a used machine that I can buy fairly cheap to get my feet wet.  There is a lot of used models on Craigslist in my area.  It was pointed out that I should be looking for a walking foot model.  I also need to look for one that can accommodate the size the thread I’m planning on using.  Any other pointers?

[Wizcrafts]

9 minutes ago, RJLamie said:

I’m not necessarily looking for industrial.  I’m looking I guess general information on what to look for in a used machine that I can buy fairly cheap to get my feet wet.  There is a lot of used models on Craigslist in my area.  It was pointed out that I should be looking for a walking foot model.  I also need to look for one that can accommodate the size the thread I’m planning on using.  Any other pointers?

You never told us what size and type of thread you want to sew with. Perhaps if you consult this thread/needle chart you can choose a combination that meets the minimum required sizes. With those stated we can recommend machines that are able to handle that combination. How's that sound?

[BDAZ]

There is  difference between used and vintage as well. You may find used industrial machines which may cost a bit more but will do the job for many years and also have a reasonable resale price. Toledo, usually in the banner ads, sells used machines and  not too far from MI.

Bob

[RJLamie]

The thread size I would like to use on these bags is about 1mm.  I think it works with a 360/32 needle.

i said I was looking for a vintage machine but that isn’t completely true.  I would prefer a vintage.  What I really need is a machine that can work with something close to that thread.  I’m looking to spend about $200 so that means it may be well used.

[BDAZ]

1 hour ago, RJLamie said:

The thread size I would like to use on these bags is about 1mm.  I think it works with a 360/32 needle.

i said I was looking for a vintage machine but that isn’t completely true.  I would prefer a vintage.  What I really need is a machine that can work with something close to that thread.  I’m looking to spend about $200 so that means it may be well used.

My suggestion is to head into a sewing shop like Jo Ann's and bring in some scrap leather and have then load up one of the heavy duty Singers with Polyester Outdoor Upholstery thread and 110 leather needles and do some testing. JoAnn's has the singer heavy duty at $229 with a 40% discount tomorrow.

There is an inexpensive walking foot attachment available as well. Again, I have successfully stitched 5-6oz x 2 with this machine and it supplements my Cowboy on thinner materials and fabrics as well as neoprene.

Bob

Edited May 13, 2018 by BDAZ

[Constabulary]

Are you sure you want to use 1mm thread and a 360 needle on 2x 4oz leather? You know that 1mm thread and 360 needle is one of the freakin heaviest combination you can find, right? A 360 needle is approx 3.6mm thick - thats literally a nail! You need an extra heavy duty sewing machine for this needle and thread combination and with $200 budget you barely scratch the surface of the price range for these machines.

I have added a picture of a 280 needle (I don´t have ever seen a 360 needle) and 100 needle (metric) so you have an idea where you come from and where you think you want to go to.

For 2x 4oz leather you probably need a 120 needle and 30 thread (metric) but 1mm threads and 360 needle is not what you need for sewing 2x 4oz leather.

I would recommend a vintage Singer 111 type triple feed / walking foot sewing machine or maybe a Singer 111 with needle feed machine works for you already. But for $200 you will probably not find a machine of this type or it is very worn and you have to put some $ into it before it properly sews. These machines usually can handle up to 140 needles and 138 thread. You may find one on craigslist but don´t expect too much for $200.

I honestly would recommend that you contact a dealer for leather sewing machines like Toledo Sewing Machines and he will tell you what what needle and thread and  especially what type of machine you need.

 

 

That may help you:

https://www.superiorthreads.com/education-thread-for-sewing-on-leather

Edited May 13, 2018 by Constabulary

[dikman]

1mm?? That's the stuff I use for hand stitching and there's no way any of my machines could handle that! You'll be looking at a pretty heavy machine to use that, and then you'll probably have trouble trying to sew such thin leather with it.

Constabulary, that needle is, umm, huge! (Compared to what I've been working with). It looks bigger than my hand stitching needles!!

[Wizcrafts]

The only machines I know of that can handle 1mm thread are needle and awl harness stitchers and curved needle shoe sole stitchers. I invite the O.P to read about the Campbell-Randall Lockstitch machine. These machines sell for thousands of dollars, whether new or used.

The issue here is that the O.P. doesn't understand how lockstitch sewing machines form a stitch, thread sizes, or machine builds and mechanisms. There is no $200 sewing machine that can sew with 1mm thread - unless it is in a barn or storage locker sale. The smallest sole stitcher that can handle that size thread is a German Junker and Ruh hand cranked, curved needle sole stitcher.

[RJLamie]

Clearly I don’t know what I want.  I like hand stitching with .8mm and love the look of it.  I thought this was a good place to start but when I seen the needle needed for it I knew I was barking up the wrong tree.  I’m going to take bob’s advice and check out the heavy duty singers at Joanne’s.  If one of those working and with 40% off I might find what I need.  I will keep you updated on my progress.

[Wizcrafts]

I think what's throwing RJ and others off is the fact that you can hand sew with 2 needles to do a running stitch with very heavy thread and have no knots to hide. The stitches are always perfect on both sides in 2 needle hand stitching. Lockstitch sewing machines have an overlap where the top thread grabs up the bottom thread and draws the resulting knot into the material.

Lighter threads form tighter knots that are easily buried inside the work. But, thicker thread, especially anything over 1/2 mm, forms a very big overlapping knot that requires a very large needle to poke a hole wide enough to clear at least 3 times the diameter of the largest thread. In the case of .8mm - which equals #554 bonded thread - the thread is not only wide, but not very flexible. It will create a lockstitch knot about 4 times the diameter of the thread. This would require a 3.2mm hole, which is about 1/8 inch diameter! The knot would be so big that it would need to be locked inside 5/16 inch of leather, or more, to totally conceal it.

The minimum needle size for sewing with #554 (.8mm) thread is #30. The largest needle that a 441 or 205 type machine uses is a #27. That leaves one having to look into needle and awl harness stitchers, as I previously mentioned. I used to own Union Lockstitch machines that could handle 1/8 inch awls. I called them roofing nails.

[koreric75]

I think the bottom line here is...there is a compromise to every thing.  I love the look of a hand stitch with heavy thready, nothing comes close which is why items crafted this way can get $$$$$, the time and care  spent to achieve this look.  I also like the speed and no hassle of the machine, most sewing machines with the right sized thread for the material and paired with the right size & TYPE of needle will leave a very professional and clean looking stitch across the top and bottom.  It might not look like the stitch you form with an awl and hand stitching, but it's still aesthetically pleasing, and the time saved returns a professional, still hand crafted leather item, at a reasonable cost. 

Now to talk function...stitching together a couple of 4/5oz  for a hand bag or wallet or knife sheath...whatever, you can hand stitch or even braid/lace these together for looks, but time increases, to stitch these together with a good leather needle and thread sewing machine you could get by with a size 16 needle and #69 thread, maybe double stitch it if you think it's needed, all depends on what this is holding together.  My little vintage Singer 15-91 home sewer has been doing this for me for a few months now, and doing it well for what i ask of it.  I paid $50 for the machine in pristine condition in a cabinet with a ton of accessories and presser feet.  Then I decided I want to be able to stitch a holster...whoa!, you can't go around sewing something designed to secure a firearm to your hip with #69 thread, let alone skimp by on 4/5oz of leather, even then that would equal ~8/10oz since you need to double it over or pancake it, and my trusty singer would piss itself if i sat down and tried to stuff that under the presser (it wouldn't fit anyway...)so I saved up, begged the wife, and sprung for the CB3200.  Perfect, now I can sew anything for 4/5oz up to a large stack of heavy leather with no problems....lol, yeah, I think you know where I'm going with this...the CB3200 is a rockstar in it's own realm and when used as intended, I know a few of the SME's (subject matter experts) have and will attest to this.  Getting the CB3200 to come down and sew #92 or #138 thread with a size 18 or 20 needle is well, insulting, not to mention a task i haven't even fathomed to undertake and hope i never get the cajones to try. 

So for now, i'll stick to my holsters belts and a few other items where the leather is thick and or heavy on my 3200, the light stuff like maybe a wallet liner/pocket, stitching liners into garment leather, etc goes to the singer 15-91, and I'll again save and one day get a mid range walking foot like a 206rb or such for that middle ground, or I'll just hand stitch those, mostly  the heavier wallet assemblies (which aren't a ton of stitches anyway) and the like.

I'd like to throw a P.S. in here about the JoAnne's comment, I have the "heavy duty" singer model 4423, and It just sits while my 15-91 get's regular use...my wife is a master seamstress, and she uses the 4423 occasionally, she's sewn some patches on leather vests and a few other things like that with it, don't get me wrong, it's a smooth machine and for denim or heavy material, works great, and it has zig-zag and other features, just not something I use frequently.

Even my cb3200, as much as i love it, pisses me off at times, I don't like the look of the impressions it leaves on veg-tan, and the bottom stitches aren't "pretty", but I know whatever I sew with it, is going to stay together, holsters for instance, I'm not as concerned with the back side stitch appearance, would it be nice if it looked hand stitched, sure, but @Wizcrafts has already covered the $$$$$ and such on what it takes to achieve.  Below is some stitching with different tensions and stitch length top/bottom from the 3200..this is a size 25 needle with 270 poly thread.

and one more of a holster stitched up with same setup...I literally just finished this stitching and decided to sit a bit before deciding what to do next...

You can see the little "pucker" marks from the hole in the needle foot, and the track marks from the left toe presser foot, i beat 'em down with a hammer and tried a modeling spoon to get them less prominent,  previous holsters have normalized over time and while working with them...I still have to even the edges and burnish then see how it's looking...

 If you're still reading, i apologize, I was just going to post  a quick note about the machines, but ended up writing a novel...either way, do what you love and it'll come out fine.

[koreric75]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

I think what's throwing RJ and others off is the fact that you can hand sew with 2 needles to do a running stitch with very heavy thread and have no knots to hide. The stitches are always perfect on both sides in 2 needle hand stitching. Lockstitch sewing machines have an overlap where the top thread grabs up the bottom thread and draws the resulting knot into the material.

Lighter threads form tighter knots that are easily buried inside the work. But, thicker thread, especially anything over 1/2 mm, forms a very big overlapping knot that requires a very large needle to poke a hole wide enough to clear at least 3 times the diameter of the largest thread. In the case of .8mm - which equals #554 bonded thread - the thread is not only wide, but not very flexible. It will create a lockstitch knot about 4 times the diameter of the thread. This would require a 3.2mm hole, which is about 1/8 inch diameter! The knot would be so big that it would need to be locked inside 5/16 inch of leather, or more, to totally conceal it.

The minimum needle size for sewing with #554 (.8mm) thread is #30. The largest needle that a 441 or 205 type machine uses is a #27. That leaves one having to look into needle and awl harness stitchers, as I previously mentioned. I used to own Union Lockstitch machines that could handle 1/8 inch awls. I called them roofing nails.

excellent...perfectly explains the "why" behind the size hole needed for the lock stitch to accommodate bigger thread!!

[BDAZ]

On 5/10/2018 at 2:33 PM, RJLamie said:

I’m looking at buying a vintage sewing machine the can sew two pieces of 4oz leather together.  I want something used but will do the job for at least a few hand bags.  Any recommendations on what to look for and what to avoid in vintage sewing machines?

If you go back to the original post I think you are missing the point.  He is not making holsters, which is an ideal task for a 3200. I stitch 5-6oz leather with it and I suspect 4oz would be just too thin, because, in my case, there are parts of an item which requires a stitch through a single layer of 5-6oz and it's very difficult to get the knot right. I doubt a single 4oz would work without a loop.

I use heavy polyester and a 110 needle and I get excellent results on thinner leathers and corduras.And for <$200 it's a new machine with a warranty and the option to return it if it doesn't do the job.

Bob

[koreric75]

1 hour ago, BDAZ said:

If you go back to the original post I think you are missing the point.  He is not making holsters, which is an ideal task for a 3200. I stitch 5-6oz leather with it and I suspect 4oz would be just too thin, because, in my case, there are parts of an item which requires a stitch through a single layer of 5-6oz and it's very difficult to get the knot right. I doubt a single 4oz would work without a loop.

I use heavy polyester and a 110 needle and I get excellent results on thinner leathers and corduras.And for <$200 it's a new machine with a warranty and the option to return it if it doesn't do the job.

Bob

perhaps,  from what I understood..he is sewing two 4oz pieces together, and wants a vintage machine...I just wrote a novel to go about my thought process when I started, never meant to imply he should start sewing holsters or go get a 3200...I just offered up some advice over all, and pretty sure I referred to a great little vintage machine that I started with, which was IIRC in the original post, he also alluded to hand bags in his original...I've been getting alot of orders for those little leather dopp kits, and some of those seams can get beefy real quick, so I use the 15-91 to sew in the liner and the zipper, then I need something bigger to handle the corners....yep, it's all in there, just have to filter through 3 or 10 paragraphs of idle ramblings as my train of thought  derails now and again.

P.S. I miss the AZ weather, especially when dyeing my stuff...my poor little airbrush drier never filled up like it does here...oopps there it goes again, choo choo

 

 

[dikman]

As far as that first post goes, you're quite right Bob, BUT (there's always a but) he then says he wants to use 1mm thread. That's when the discussion turned to heavy machines. There are two incompatible elements to his requirements - a (cheap) machine and using heavy thread, which I think has been clarified here. My (medium-weight) machines can do pretty well anything I need except holsters. I've found that using #138 on belts doesn't look too bad, but the holsters have to be hand stitched, which is tedious but strangely satisfying (only problem is I feel that I can't really charge for all the time it actually takes!).

My Seiko, btw, only cost me $150 (Aus) . I just needed to add a servo. It's great with #138. But a 3200 would be nice.....

[BDAZ]

2 hours ago, koreric75 said:

perhaps,  from what I understood..he is sewing two 4oz pieces together, and wants a vintage machine...I just wrote a novel to go about my thought process when I started, never meant to imply he should start sewing holsters or go get a 3200...I just offered up some advice over all, and pretty sure I referred to a great little vintage machine that I started with, which was IIRC in the original post, he also alluded to hand bags in his original...I've been getting alot of orders for those little leather dopp kits, and some of those seams can get beefy real quick, so I use the 15-91 to sew in the liner and the zipper, then I need something bigger to handle the corners....yep, it's all in there, just have to filter through 3 or 10 paragraphs of idle ramblings as my train of thought  derails now and again.

P.S. I miss the AZ weather, especially when dyeing my stuff...my poor little airbrush drier never filled up like it does here...oopps there it goes again, choo choo

 

 

Yep, this time of year is perfect leather weather... wet forming takes no more than an hour or two in the sun at 5% humidity.  Where were you in AZ and where are you now?

 

Bob

2 hours ago, dikman said:

As far as that first post goes, you're quite right Bob, BUT (there's always a but) he then says he wants to use 1mm thread. That's when the discussion turned to heavy machines. There are two incompatible elements to his requirements - a (cheap) machine and using heavy thread, which I think has been clarified here. My (medium-weight) machines can do pretty well anything I need except holsters. I've found that using #138 on belts doesn't look too bad, but the holsters have to be hand stitched, which is tedious but strangely satisfying (only problem is I feel that I can't really charge for all the time it actually takes!).

My Seiko, btw, only cost me $150 (Aus) . I just needed to add a servo. It's great with #138. But a 3200 would be nice.....

I don't think he considered the practicality of the aesthetics he would like to achieve. With the walking foot and heavy upholstery thread the Singer does an adequate job for the $$. I turn down jobs for any light weight leathers. I find you can't recoup the cost of time in the price.

Bob

[koreric75]

17 minutes ago, BDAZ said:

Yep, this time of year is perfect leather weather... wet forming takes no more than an hour or two in the sun at 5% humidity.  Where were you in AZ and where are you now?

 i was in Sierra Vista, now back in Shreveport/Bossier, LA...it's I never understood how much humidity really affects things...yep, wet molding would be dry in no time, dye sets quick, but don't leave the lid off of anything, cause it'll be dust in no time...lol

[BDAZ]

24 minutes ago, koreric75 said:

 i was in Sierra Vista, now back in Shreveport/Bossier, LA...it's I never understood how much humidity really affects things...yep, wet molding would be dry in no time, dye sets quick, but don't leave the lid off of anything, cause it'll be dust in no time...lol

That's for sure! I have converted a bathroom to a humidor using  a home made swamp cooler which keeps all my leather and musical instruments at 60% Works like a champ! Wne I lived in SFl, everything turned green!

Bob

[RJLamie]

So I tried the singer 4423 with #92 thread and a 110 needle.  The machine easily sewed two layers of 5oz.  It did it pretty effortlessly but the #92 didn’t have the look I want.  My problem is I have been hand stitching too long and like the look of .4/.6mm thread.  I’m creepy into handbags but the time to hand stitch a complete bag has been more than I want put into projects.  If I can machine stitch the less visible stitches and hand stitch the highly visible ones I would be golden.  I don’t want a huge difference in the thread size.

[RJLamie]

What do you guys think about the Sailrite LS1?  Do you think it could sew a #346 thread with it? What needle size do I need to use?