DIY Filler for Edges?

[BDAZ]

Most of my production items are glued, stitched and then wet formed with dozens of different forms. I make a number standardized products customized with the particular form required. Sometimes there is a very tight fit and the edges tend to separate slightly. I generally  don't use an edger, just edgepaint and burnish but it hasn't been a critical part of the process. I would like to improve the quality of the edges , especially where there is a small separation along the edge. I would prefer to have some type of filler  I can apply and then use a single coat of edge paint rather then multiple coats.

After researching I have seen a few possibilities but I am wondering if anyone has a personal favorite that would work as a filler, sand, burnish and then take Edgecote.

Thanks!

Bob

[immiketoo]

Pics would help diagnose what you're trying to achieve, but generally I try to avoid all gaps in edges that are glued before I start my edge finishing process.  If there is a gap, edge paint generally covers what I need it to with a little work.  If I really needed to, I may make a custom plug out of veg tan and fill the gap that way but that is fixing a problem that shouldn't exist.

[BDAZ]

What happens is that the glue may separate at the edge during the wet forming process due to the stress on the leather from the form. The result is essentially a thin crack that is to wide in places, to be filled by single application of edge paint.

Edge paint is one of those operations that has the potential to ruin a piece, and when I am rushing to complete a batch order, the fewer potential disaster steps, the better. A non drip paste which will not stain and is easily applied would be ideal.

Bob

[immiketoo]

Hmmm...I never use edge paint as a single application, so I don't know.  Maybe leather dust and glue?  What are you making?  And, I hate to ask, but are you hammering your seams?  You are pretty accomplished, so I assume you are, but trying to help find a solution...

 

 

[BDAZ]

This is production work so I am not looking for perfection, just good quality. I don't want to bill my time at $5 an hour heh heh. I am making cases for flutes. I cut top and bottom pieces from Wickett & Craig drum dyed veg tan, decorate then dry, tape my seams (faster than glue and no chance of smearing, etc), trim the edges straight and even if needed, then stitch. Next I wet the leather and insert specific forms and wet form. If the form is very tight, it will put stress on the edges and may cause the very edge to separate slightly as it dries. In typical AZ sun, a couple of hours later I have a rock hard case ready for edging and final finishing. (It rained today, first time this year!).

Sometimes the edge dressing fills the cracks and sometimes not. It would be simpler to have the right compound, fill in the cracks and then when dry, throw it on the belt sander, burnish with home made Trag, paint and ship it!

Bob

[immiketoo]

May sound silly but what about corn meal and super glue?  Or something similar?

[BDAZ]

To messy and risky. I'm heading for Home Depot and The Wood Store to look for something that may work. Good news that all my edges are black

[LetterT]

I know Giardini makes something they call Basecoat. They have 2 versions Semi-Dense and Dense, the purpose to provide better adhesion and fill in the empty space on the surface. I am afraid I can not say anything more, have not personally tried it but you can take a look at their site here:

https://www.leatheredgepaint.com/leather-edge-basecoat

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by LetterT

[BDAZ]

1 hour ago, LetterT said:

I know Giardini makes something they call Basecoat. They have 2 versions Semi-Dense and Dense, the purpose to provide better adhesion and fill in the empty space on the surface. I am afraid I can not say anything more, have not personally tried it but you can take a look at their site here:

https://www.leatheredgepaint.com/leather-edge-basecoat

 

Thanks! Checked out the video and ordered their sample kit. Looks promising, though more of an over coat and less of a filler. It will require two edge paints which I am trying to avoid.

I am in the processing and acrylic caulk, which looks promising and plastic wood which looks less so.I will post some pics once finished.

Bob

[garypl]

I just received the Giardini base coat product and it does fill small gaps nicely.  I posted a photo about one week ago of one coat on a raw edge showing the difference between treated and untreated.

Gary

Edited June 17, 2018 by garypl

[BDAZ]

37 minutes ago, garypl said:

I just received the Giardini base coat product and it does fill small gaps nicely.  I posted a photo about one week ago of one coat on a raw edge showing the difference between treated and untreated.

Gary

 

 

I saw that post but not sure if it is tough enough to be able to hold a crack together. The caulk and plastic wood doesn't seem to handle the burnisher and separates. Maybe a blend of white glue and pigment.

.

Bob

Edited June 17, 2018 by BDAZ

[niakulah]

15 hours ago, BDAZ said:

This is production work so I am not looking for perfection, just good quality. I don't want to bill my time at $5 an hour heh heh. I am making cases for flutes. I cut top and bottom pieces from Wickett & Craig drum dyed veg tan, decorate then dry, tape my seams (faster than glue and no chance of smearing, etc), trim the edges straight and even if needed, then stitch. Next I wet the leather and insert specific forms and wet form. If the form is very tight, it will put stress on the edges and may cause the very edge to separate slightly as it dries. In typical AZ sun, a couple of hours later I have a rock hard case ready for edging and final finishing. (It rained today, first time this year!).

Sometimes the edge dressing fills the cracks and sometimes not. It would be simpler to have the right compound, fill in the cracks and then when dry, throw it on the belt sander, burnish with home made Trag, paint and ship it!

Bob

This might be a silly question from a rank amateur, but couldn't you trim the edges after wet forming?

[Basically Bob]

Here are a couple of ideas:

- make a mask that you could position on the flat leather, covering everything except the seam allowance and then use a spray adhesive for the seam allowance.

- increase the width (slightly) of the leather, just enough to relieve some of the pressure on the seam.

I would try this with cardboard first and then if it works make a jig to position the flat leather and mask to ensure accuracy and speed up production.  

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Basically Bob

[BDAZ]

4 hours ago, niakulah said:

This might be a silly question from a rank amateur, but couldn't you trim the edges after wet forming?

No, an extra step with the possibility of a screw up, leather is rock hard and no longer flat. Sanding sometimes helps but the problem is a gap. 

3 hours ago, Basically Bob said:

Here are a couple of ideas:

- make a mask that you could position on the flat leather, covering everything except the seam allowance and then use a spray adhesive for the seam allowance.

Tried that already, too messy and time consuming.

- increase the width (slightly) of the leather, just enough to relieve some of the pressure on the seam.

I am using fixed widths based on my clicker dies. This is production, not a hobby. Only a small percentage of forms cause this issue.

I would try this with cardboard first and then if it works make a jig to position the flat leather and mask to ensure accuracy and speed up production.  

Again, the separation occurs during the wet forming and drying process. 

 

I did some moe tests and it does appear that the caulk may be the answer. I used the suggested drying time and it didn't work, however using a longer drying time seems to be the answer. I tested it as an adhesive (flesh to flesh) and it works as well as any other glue once dried. The advantage is that i is very thick, can be applied to the edge and slicked off with a scraper or credit card and it remains in the crack. The photograph attached was a reject piece with 4 layers, 2 x 6 oz leather and 2 x pigskin lining. There was a large gap where the lining had separated at the edge.  I did give it a couple of hours to dry then burnished with gum trag and painted with a single coat of Edgecote.

While not perfect, it is certainly more than acceptable, especially once waxed and buffed.

Bob

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by BDAZ

[BDAZ]

A second test with the caulk failed. After a single application of Edgekote, the area that had the caulk showed up as a break in the Edgekote. I believe that the latex repelled the Edgekote and left a visible gap, though not through to the leather. Going back to the plastic wood for more testing.

Bob

 

[rodneywt1180b]

One thought since it is rigid would be wood flour and super glue.  It would be basically a quick drying sandable filler that takes finishes well.  Come to think of it, if the gaps are small a gel superglue and accelerator might do the trick.

One example of the wood flour:  https://www.google.com/shopping/product/16293151009935572791?q=wood+flour&client=firefox-b-ab&prds=paur:ClkAsKraX91Q0maBoMf37-KbaOivhmg0wtFJG6N3LS19BbOpv0lCVM7dr-H2d10s0Av6ypcSJYl0PshKAqL-rVjk6Ri1PEJXEP9gCDImkN-p-f1Dui6FORqfQBIZAFPVH70CkBeEuw8C8AYPY3oy8g0pZq-CRw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg7JejwNvbAhUzHzQIHZABDBIQ8wII1gI

A tub that size would last you basically forever.

[BDAZ]

49 minutes ago, rodneywt1180b said:

One thought since it is rigid would be wood flour and super glue.  It would be basically a quick drying sandable filler that takes finishes well.  Come to think of it, if the gaps are small a gel superglue and accelerator might do the trick.

One example of the wood flour:  https://www.google.com/shopping/product/16293151009935572791?q=wood+flour&client=firefox-b-ab&prds=paur:ClkAsKraX91Q0maBoMf37-KbaOivhmg0wtFJG6N3LS19BbOpv0lCVM7dr-H2d10s0Av6ypcSJYl0PshKAqL-rVjk6Ri1PEJXEP9gCDImkN-p-f1Dui6FORqfQBIZAFPVH70CkBeEuw8C8AYPY3oy8g0pZq-CRw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg7JejwNvbAhUzHzQIHZABDBIQ8wII1gI

A tub that size would last you basically forever.

That's probably close to plastic wood but I want to avoid the mess of mixing and applying glues. I did additional tests on PW and it seems to work well, no drips, easy to apply and remove excess, and once dry it does not separate. It takes Edgekote well and provides an invisible fill once painted.

I also tested standard acrylic paints from the Hobby store as an alternative to Edgekote. I could not tell the difference between the two when applied and when dry. The $1.49 satin acrylic paint was less expensive.

 

Bob

Edited June 17, 2018 by BDAZ

[LetterT]

So plastic wood and acrylic paint would be an viable alternative to edge cote/paint.

Makes me wonder what is edge coat made of.

Edited June 17, 2018 by LetterT

[LatigoAmigo]

This is an interesting thread. Makes me wonder if hot glue (from a hot gluing gun) might work. It dries slightly pliable, and should adhere well to both layers of leather. It comes in different grades, low and high temperature.

[Webicons]

It should be possible to thicken up edge paint with either fumed Silica or strait Silica.  Depending on the percentage, you should be able to achieve a viscosity of anything from syrup to a semi-solid.  The drawback of this system is that they typically leave a matte finish when dry. 

[BDAZ]

4 hours ago, LetterT said:

So plastic wood and acrylic paint would be an viable alternative to edge cote/paint.

Makes me wonder what is edge coat made of.

Edgekote is basically the same formulation as Acrylic paint but thicker, less water or more pigment. 

The plastic wood is just for filling separation cracks where the glue or tape has failed. 

 

16 oz bottle is $4.99. 4 oz. of Edgekote is $8.99.

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Stencils-Craft-Paints/Acrylic-Craft-Paints/Black-Anita's-Acrylic-Craft-Paint---16-Ounces/p/80753748

Bob

[garypl]

8 hours ago, BDAZ said:

Edgekote is basically the same formulation as Acrylic paint but thicker, less water or more pigment. 

The plastic wood is just for filling separation cracks where the glue or tape has failed. 

 

16 oz bottle is $4.99. 4 oz. of Edgekote is $8.99.

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Stencils-Craft-Paints/Acrylic-Craft-Paints/Black-Anita's-Acrylic-Craft-Paint---16-Ounces/p/80753748

Bob

I have some acrylic paints I bought from Walmart and they were on sale for $1.99 each.  Might want to try one.  I don’t use them for edge painting, just other decorations and I dilute black paint with water and use to color carving backgrounds.

Gary

[BDAZ]

2 hours ago, garypl said:

I have some acrylic paints I bought from Walmart and they were on sale for $1.99 each.  Might want to try one.  I don’t use them for edge painting, just other decorations and I dilute black paint with water and use to color carving backgrounds.

Gary

I assume that if you can dilute the black, you may be able to evaporate some water and thicken the paint a bit as well, though I see little difference in viscosity between the Edgekote and paint when applied to the edge with a tool.

Bob

[garypl]

1 hour ago, BDAZ said:

I assume that if you can dilute the black, you may be able to evaporate some water and thicken the paint a bit as well, though I see little difference in viscosity between the Edgekote and paint when applied to the edge with a tool.

Bob

Totally agree Bob.  I dilute the paint so I can apply it with a fine tipped squeeze bottle - works well to outline or fill-in letters and for backgrounding.  Undiluted it is too thick to go through the fine needle.

Gary

[BDAZ]

I use undiluted acrylic to highlight stamps and letters.

This is a quickie strap I made from scraps for a new banjo I acquired a few years ago. The acrylic still looks freshly painted.

Bob