Sewing Machines Question and Recommendation

[pepeunidos]

Hello friends - 

So as a hobby leathercrafter that sells a few pieces a month, I'm doing research on what options are available to me for machine stitching. Since I'm not in a production environment, and understanding that there is no machine that will do it all, I'm trying to find the best possible compromise that will meet my needs as best as possible. I have a limited budget (no surprise), and a very limited footprint, these are very important aspect of selecting the right equipment. I also understand that one grows into their equipment as their needs change, so in this case, I'm thinking of first time purchase only.

For my uses, I don't intend to build saddles or make boots/shoes, so I'm looking for something that would sew weights from leather for a billfold, case, or other small leather goods, all the way up to belts, holsters and sheaths, maybe some simple motorcycle saddlebags or tool rolls, and maybe a vest or some other simple garment.  I don't project having to sew anything thicker than 1/2". For the most part, I work with veg-tan tooling leather, except for some exceptions, like for some shop projects like making a tool roll, or something along those lines. This has narrowed my research down to 3 options:

• Tippmann Boss
• Cowboy Outlaw
• Cowboy CB3200 Note: I've contacted one of the dealers for this machine and I'm finding out if I can get the whole package and have the hand crank option installed, so once I have the space for it, I can do the whole installation.

There's extensive documentation on this forum regarding the Tippmann and it's idiosyncrasies. I'm a very patient person and mechanically inclined, so I'm up for tackling any problems with this machine until I figure it out (yes, I'm up for some punishment), and the people I've talked to who have this machine dialed like it quite a bit, but it does require a bunch of trial and error to optimize it for your needs. Regarding the Outlaw, it looks like a great machine, but haven't found enough end user experience to make an informed decision. I believe that both of these machines are needle fed, and hand-cranked, so I'm assuming the operating concept is the same. The portability is attractive to me, even though the Outlaw is a hefty machine with twice the mass of the Tippmann. I also understand about the throat clearance on the Cowboy is more convenient than on the Tippmann. I've had the opportunity to examine the Tippmann up close, and understand about the aluminum frame construction, that doesn't bother me. I do like the 23lb weight though, I will have to install this machine in the 2nd story.

As far as the CB3200, it seems to have an excellent reputation with good support, and it has the triple feed mechanism that seems to be the most desirable for our craft. Solar Leather has a hand cranked option, which is also very interesting with a custom stand for the machine that will fit in my space. I intend to buy this equipment new with a warranty, unless it's such a screamin' deal that I just can't pass it up.

So here's the can of worms, I'm grabbing the can opener right now LOL I'm sure the discussion will be most interesting. Thanks for taking the time.

Edited September 11, 2018 by pepeunidos

[bikermutt07]

Most everything you mentioned could be had on a smaller machine than mentioned. You could technically tackle everything you mentioned with the 3200. But, will be constantly changing needles and adjusting tension. 

Everything short of the holsters and sheaths would be more comfortable on the consew 206rb platform or a cowboy 341 if you need the cylinder. Or comparable machines to these two.

The 3200 will probably be best served staying right around the middle of the road between theseachines and the larger capacity 4500 models. So, sheaths, holsters, saddlebags and such, yes.

Wallets, garments and such not so much.

Try and figure out where 1 your market lies and 2 less important but your interest lies

And buy the machine that can help you find the other machine(s).

If you have the scratch for the 3200 you are right there with the 341. Since more of your items are smaller the go that way and get the 3200 later.

I was able to find a hunny of a deal on a consew 206rb1. There isn't much difference from what I understand in that series except the lube system. The rb1 is a cross between a wicking system and a user oiled machine. Since I am sewing slowly I don't benefit from a self oiling machine like the 206rb5.

Just stuff to think about. I thought I was fairly knowledgeable about them by reading everything here. Now that I have one I can see there is so much more.

[DonInReno]

Any first time user of an industrial machine could do much worse than one of the mainstay upholstery walking foot machines like a singer 111w155, consew 206, Juki lu562, etc.  These are relatively cheap, readily available, well supported/documented, and  would sew the majority of what you’re building.  You will always have a use for the good old flatbed walking foot.

somewhere there’s a write up of a guy who simply cut a disk out of plywood, clamped it to the handwheel, and added a swiveling hand knob for sewing by hand

[Hildebrand]

As a current Boss user I don't think it is the machine that will do all the things you want.  It does great on the thicker items but I think you would really struggle to sew wallets, etc. with it.

[pepeunidos]

This is all super helpful. I hadn't even considered a walking foot flatbed as I thought that they were for upholstery and heavy duty fabrics. I see that they do that, as well as medium duty on veg-tan leather. Please keep the knowledge coming, I'm sponging it all in. Thanks @bikermutt07, @DonInReno, and @Hildebrand

[Matt S]

32 minutes ago, pepeunidos said:

This is all super helpful. I hadn't even considered a walking foot flatbed as I thought that they were for upholstery and heavy duty fabrics. I see that they do that, as well as medium duty on veg-tan leather. Please keep the knowledge coming, I'm sponging it all in. Thanks @bikermutt07, @DonInReno, and @Hildebrand

These machines are indeed great for upholstery but to be honest 90%ish of general leather items can be made on a flat-bed machine. The flat space is really helpful for the larger projects like bags, plus the extra room available in the machine means that it's easier for the manufacturer to fit things like larger hooks/bobbins and beefier, better spaced or more featured feed mechanisms. Where a cylinder-bed machine really shines is when you have an operation that you just can't reach with a flat-bed machine. Standard machine tables are roughly 20x40" so not enormous.

From what you want to make, I can only see the sheaths and holsters being an issue for a flat-bed machine, depending on how/if you sew on a leather belt loop.

[pepeunidos]

1 hour ago, Matt S said:

These machines are indeed great for upholstery but to be honest 90%ish of general leather items can be made on a flat-bed machine. The flat space is really helpful for the larger projects like bags, plus the extra room available in the machine means that it's easier for the manufacturer to fit things like larger hooks/bobbins and beefier, better spaced or more featured feed mechanisms. Where a cylinder-bed machine really shines is when you have an operation that you just can't reach with a flat-bed machine. Standard machine tables are roughly 20x40" so not enormous.

From what you want to make, I can only see the sheaths and holsters being an issue for a flat-bed machine, depending on how/if you sew on a leather belt loop.

Thank you, @Matt S

[pepeunidos]

On 9/12/2018 at 12:03 AM, DonInReno said:

Any first time user of an industrial machine could do much worse than one of the mainstay upholstery walking foot machines like a singer 111w155, consew 206, Juki lu562, etc.  These are relatively cheap, readily available, well supported/documented, and  would sew the majority of what you’re building.  You will always have a use for the good old flatbed walking foot.

somewhere there’s a write up of a guy who simply cut a disk out of plywood, clamped it to the handwheel, and added a swiveling hand knob for sewing by hand

Which would be the modern/new equivalent of these machines or something comparable that's all included in the box ready to go aside from making setup adjustments? As I'm looking these things over, I keep seeing these machines for sale for 600-800, but it seems like I will also need a servo motor and a speed reducer, some didn't even come with a table. I saw a video of one of these clutch motors stitching at full boogie and holy smokes that's fast. Not for newbs for sure!

I'm wondering if a Consew P1206RB, Consew 206-RB5, Cowboy 227R, or Cobra Class 17/18/20 would be suitable machines for a versatile starter machine. I don't intend to give up hand stitching, so for thicker stuff, that's always a go-to.

Thanks for the good info, everyone. I'm grateful for your knowledge.

Edited September 13, 2018 by pepeunidos

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, pepeunidos said:

I'm wondering if a Consew P1206RB, Consew 206-RB5, Cowboy 227R, or Cobra Class 17/18/20 would be suitable machines for a versatile starter machine.

Not having laid hands on any of those exact machines, in a word yes. What you're looking at are upholstery-weight machines -- by which I mean the common, relatively inexpensive industrial machines that can comfortably sew 5/16" (8mm) thickness of leather with TKT20/V138 synthetic thread all day long -- hopefully using a triple-compound feed (feed-dog, needle-feed and powered walking-foot). Most of this class of machine will be able to sew thicker leather and/or thicker thread, though perhaps not for ever (it's rarely a good idea to run any machine at or near one if its maximums for very long.) Such machines are great at sewing dress belts, wallets, watch straps, bags, purses, small knife sheaths, tool rolls, aprons, heavy duty clothing, upholstery, whatever fits within the above limits.

Exactly what features you need/want on your machine are up to you to decide -- flat or cylinder bed, reverse, large bobbins, rectangular needle motion, synchonised needle positioning, whatever. Those are decisions that you need to make based on your work and your budget.

I have a locally badged Highlead 0618, which I use almost every single day. (For comparison's sake it's very similar to the Consew P1206 but please don't take this as a recommendation for or against that particular machine.) It's a flat-bed triple-feed upholstery-weight machine which I have setup with a cheap needle-positioning servo motor and £9 Ikea worklight. I've sewn somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 metres of seam through this machine this summer on dog leads alone, using TKT20/V138 nylon thread into 4mm of medium-temper leather, often faster than 1,000 SPM. It takes the 1" M bobbin, which means I can sew two 5' dog leads (about 20 feet of sewing) per bobbin and save for cleaning and oiling I don't think I've had to do any maintenance to it for months . This is pretty small potatoes as far as manufacturing goes but what impresses me is that this is a pretty low-end machine which is imperfectly setup. I went a different route but you can buy packages of machines like this, on a table, with a servo motor and set up, for £/$/€1,000 -- which is under a month's minimum wage. There are other ways that a beginner to machine sewing leather can go, but this isn't a bad one.

[R8R]

23 hours ago, pepeunidos said:

I'm wondering if a Consew P1206RB, Consew 206-RB5, Cowboy 227R, or Cobra Class 17/18/20 would be suitable machines for a versatile starter machine. I don't intend to give up hand stitching, so for thicker stuff, that's always a go-to.

For lighter leather, yes. They are made for heavier work bu no the *heaviest* work. They are mid way between heavy stitchers and garment machines.

I had a Sailrite machine identical to the P1206RB (Fabricator) and it was great. The 206, 227, etc are just a tad stouter.

 

Craig's List is your friend here. Machines like the Juki 562, Consew 206, etc seem to crop up on there every week.

[Jwyrick]

On 9/11/2018 at 9:05 PM, bikermutt07 said:

Most everything you mentioned could be had on a smaller machine than mentioned. You could technically tackle everything you mentioned with the 3200. But, will be constantly changing needles and adjusting tension. 

Everything short of the holsters and sheaths would be more comfortable on the consew 206rb platform or a cowboy 341 if you need the cylinder. Or comparable machines to these two.

The 3200 will probably be best served staying right around the middle of the road between theseachines and the larger capacity 4500 models. So, sheaths, holsters, saddlebags and such, yes.

Wallets, garments and such not so much.

Try and figure out where 1 your market lies and 2 less important but your interest lies

And buy the machine that can help you find the other machine(s).

If you have the scratch for the 3200 you are right there with the 341. Since more of your items are smaller the go that way and get the 3200 later.

I was able to find a hunny of a deal on a consew 206rb1. There isn't much difference from what I understand in that series except the lube system. The rb1 is a cross between a wicking system and a user oiled machine. Since I am sewing slowly I don't benefit from a self oiling machine like the 206rb5.

Just stuff to think about. I thought I was fairly knowledgeable about them by reading everything here. Now that I have one I can see there is so much more.

What about a juki lu-563. As far as holster making is concerned 

[bikermutt07]

@Jwyrick, I'm not very tuned in on that machine, but I think it is comparable to the 206.

If that is the case it tops out at 138 or 207 thread, which I understand is too small for holsters.

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Jwyrick said:

What about a juki lu-563. As far as holster making is concerned 

NO! The LU-563 and its successors are limited to #138 thread. This is okay for many jobs but not gun holsters. The thread is simply not strong enough to withstand the forces that can be exerted by holstering a handgun. I use #277 thread for all holsters.

I owned a 563 and found it inadequate for holsters and had forward/reverse length mismatches. It also suffered from a floating stitch lever that changed stitch length with the speed I sewed at.

[Jwyrick]

Thanks for the help. I'm a noob when it comes to machines. Trying to find a machine for just a hobby without spending a fortune seems impossible. Back to the hunt lol

[bikermutt07]

@Jwyrick, keep in mind these machines used to be thousands more before the Chinese and Japanese machines came along.

But, deals are out there. Be patient and save up.

30 days ago I had no machine. Now the two I mentioned above both fell into my lap.

I got the consew locally for 400 with a new table and servo.

Then last weekend I hotshotted it out to Vegas to grab a 3200 and about 3,000.00 worth of materials and tools for a grand.

If it wasn't for the Good Lord, good friends, and this site none of this would have transpired.

Just keep your eyes peeled.

 

[R8R]

My first foray into "heavy duty" machines was a generic portable zig-zag walking foot (clone of a Sailrite Ultrafeed/Thomson) I found at the Goodwill depot for $3.00 (yes THREE dollars) I think it's a Family Sew or similar brand. No actual brand name, made in Taiwan though. Sews great!

Keep your eyes peeled!

 

[Jwyrick]

Thanks fellas. I stay glued to CL,let go and offer up. Looks like I need to put some boots on the ground and hit some places 

[SolarLeatherMachines]

6 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

NO! The LU-563 and its successors are limited to #138 thread. This is okay for many jobs but not gun holsters. The thread is simply not strong enough to withstand the forces that can be exerted by holstering a handgun. I use #277 thread for all holsters.

I owned a 563 and found it inadequate for holsters and had forward/reverse length mismatches. It also suffered from a floating stitch lever that changed stitch length with the speed I sewed at.

EXACTLY.  I see lots and LOTS of guys sewing holsters with 138.  And they'll each argue that it's plenty strong because they twist in in their hands and it holds together.  But a holster's job is to retain the weapon during a struggle, and let me tell ya, if a 225 lb man wants a gun, he'll unzip that 138 thread by yanking straight out on the holster.  I've seen it, I've done it myself.   Use NOTHING LESS than 277.  And for the love of Science, use 277 top AND bottom.  It's pointless to have 277 on top and 138 on bottom.  It'll just unzip.  

[pepeunidos]

11 hours ago, bikermutt07 said:

@Jwyrick, keep in mind these machines used to be thousands more before the Chinese and Japanese machines came along.

But, deals are out there. Be patient and save up.

30 days ago I had no machine. Now the two I mentioned above both fell into my lap.

I got the consew locally for 400 with a new table and servo.

Then last weekend I hotshotted it out to Vegas to grab a 3200 and about 3,000.00 worth of materials and tools for a grand.

If it wasn't for the Good Lord, good friends, and this site none of this would have transpired.

Just keep your eyes peeled.

 

@bikermutt07 I saw the discussion thread and was gonna ask you about how that went! Other than the machine, were there some other goodies in there? Which Consew did you get?

Pepe

[pepeunidos]

The amount of knowledge on this site is staggering. Please keep it coming. I'm starting to come up with a budget for these machines based on everything that I'm seeing on this thread (har har! see what I did there? I kill myself sometimes). For my needs, I'm considering the following:

Juki LU1508-N or clone of same (Thor GC-1508, Artisan 1508-10H)

Consew 206 RB-5 or Chandler CM406RB-1 (to my untrained eye, looks like a clone of the Consew, but couldn't find enough specs regarding the feed to say for sure)

Cobra Class 18

Cowboy 227R with some kind of flatbed jig/attachment

Eventually, as a second, something a little heavier like a Cowboy 3200 for the sheaths and holsters. I don't ever expect to be doing anything heavier than that, like saddles or tack. A huge factor regarding the purchase is whether I can pick it up instead of having it shipped.

Thanks to everyone for posting on this thread. I sure do appreciate it.

 

 

[R8R]

42 minutes ago, pepeunidos said:

The amount of knowledge on this site is staggering. Please keep it coming. I'm starting to come up with a budget for these machines based on everything that I'm seeing on this thread (har har! see what I did there? I kill myself sometimes). For my needs, I'm considering the following:

Juki LU1508-N or clone of same (Thor GC-1508, Artisan 1508-10H)

Consew 206 RB-5 or Chandler CM406RB-1 (to my untrained eye, looks like a clone of the Consew, but couldn't find enough specs regarding the feed to say for sure)

Cobra Class 18

Cowboy 227R with some kind of flatbed jig/attachment

Eventually, as a second, something a little heavier like a Cowboy 3200 for the sheaths and holsters. I don't ever expect to be doing anything heavier than that, like saddles or tack. A huge factor regarding the purchase is whether I can pick it up instead of having it shipped.

Thanks to everyone for posting on this thread. I sure do appreciate it.

 

 

If I were to pick one flatbed machine of all of those it would be the Artisan. It's based on the Juki 1508N*H* and is a "heavy" version of the 1508N with a little more capacity and longer needle stroke. Also square feed locus which really does improve feed ability. (the feed dogs move squarely up and back, not in an ellipse)

Good machines, I've seen em in person in SF and test drove a few. (Artisan is next door to the place I bought my Juki)

The rest of the machines you listed can go up to 138 thread, (give or take) the 1508-10H can in theory go up to 277 although 207 is prob more reasonable. Of all the clones out there, the ones based off of later model Juki square feed machines are my favorite.

Keep your eyes peeled on Craigs List though! These made-in-Japan Juki's crop up on there from time to time for decent prices.

 

 

[R8R]

Spanky new CB3200 in Austin....

https://austin.craigslist.org/tls/d/leather-sewing-machine/6706710684.html

 

[R8R]

1541S with free delivery...

https://austin.craigslist.org/app/d/juki-dnu-1541s-walking-foot/6691001136.html

Honestly that Cowboy with the flatbed might be everything you'd need to sew thin leather all the way up to the max you'd want to go. Priced right too.

[pepeunidos]

8 hours ago, R8R said:

If I were to pick one flatbed machine of all of those it would be the Artisan. It's based on the Juki 1508N*H* and is a "heavy" version of the 1508N with a little more capacity and longer needle stroke. Also square feed locus which really does improve feed ability. (the feed dogs move squarely up and back, not in an ellipse)

Good machines, I've seen em in person in SF and test drove a few. (Artisan is next door to the place I bought my Juki)

The rest of the machines you listed can go up to 138 thread, (give or take) the 1508-10H can in theory go up to 277 although 207 is prob more reasonable. Of all the clones out there, the ones based off of later model Juki square feed machines are my favorite.

Keep your eyes peeled on Craigs List though! These made-in-Japan Juki's crop up on there from time to time for decent prices.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, R8R said:

Spanky new CB3200 in Austin....

https://austin.craigslist.org/tls/d/leather-sewing-machine/6706710684.html

 

 

8 hours ago, R8R said:

1541S with free delivery...

https://austin.craigslist.org/app/d/juki-dnu-1541s-walking-foot/6691001136.html

Honestly that Cowboy with the flatbed might be everything you'd need to sew thin leather all the way up to the max you'd want to go. Priced right too.

Thanks R8R - this is all excellent information. I did see these machines on the Austin CL page, but gonna have to let these pass by. I'm figuring out what my budget is and how much I need to set aside to make it work. There will be others, I'm sure!

[pepeunidos]

Hello friends - I spied this on my local CL listing and was wondering if based on this discussion, this machine would be suitable for my first one?

https://austin.craigslist.org/for/d/industrial-walking-foot/6709436556.html

Thanks in advance