Leather edge finishing from the professionals with an sander

[Sheilajeanne]

Yes, the usual way to deal with the edges of nylon binding (or any type of binding) is to sew them into the end of your seam. If the binding is leather, it has to be skived very thin at the end to reduce the bulk . Also, when going around curves, slits need to be cut in the binding to keep it from bunching up. This means the binding needs to be glued as well as stitched, to prevent raveling.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Sheilajeanne

[battlemunky]

Please see the attached image and then also please don't speak as if you are an expert when it is clear you are very ignorant. You are using a lockstitch. Saddle stitching is ridiculously stronger than lockstitches. Try and learn before exerting "pride" in place of wisdom.

[battlemunky]

10 minutes ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

But overall the binding process makes for and double strength product which is hard to beat regards ruggedness and durability since I am already using full grain pig leather instead of split genuine leather. I have yet to be able to rip the full grain pig leather apart. The thread is not going to fail whatsever since the  binder adds to an second layer of thread for a total of (2 x #138 bonded nylon thread) #276 thread strength (basically equal to 1 layer of #277 bonded nylon thread). But for a way cleaner and better look.

This is false. The binder is only as strong as the stitch used. Not only are you using a lockstitch but the lockstitches you have presented for criticism thus far have been jumbled and bumbled and for every jumble and bumble there is, that is a weak spot, not stronger because there is more thread present. In the event you find some humility and increase your quality as suggested by everyone here who has commented on everything you've put forward for comment, you may increase your durability to a point that it can last as long as other lockstitched items but properly saddle stitched leather will win every time. You can literally break a saddle stitched item in several spots and it'll maintain it's integrity. Keep in mind also that this is before we've added a drop of cement which will literally destroy your piece if torn apart it bonds so well; adding saddle stitching on top of a properly cemented piece will make it last for decades and maybe even centuries.

You do you though. I know where I'd put my money.

[RusticLeatherShop]

40 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Yes, the usual way to deal with the edges of nylon binding (or any type of binding) is to sew them into the end of your seam. If the binding is leather, it has to be skived very thin at the end to reduce the bulk . Also, when going around curves, slits need to be cut in the binding to keep it from bunching up. This means the binding needs to be glued as well as stitched, to prevent raveling.

yes, I'll try to seal it by sewing it binding it underneath over.

Curves I cant cut the binding since it weakens it and has to be burned to seal. The worst thing one can do with this nylon webbing is to cut it.

Glued and stitch the binder after cutting it on the edges will make a mess IMHO. A receipe for unraveling the binding webbing.

[RusticLeatherShop]

Yes the CB4500 is a lock stitch machine. That's the way I do it.

I have yet to see on heavy used shoes the #92 (or so) thread to break. I use #138 bonded nylon thread. So the thread is not necessarily the weak spot of the piece. The weak spot on shoes (local 9$ shoes) is the leather cracking from bending and humidity. Normally even on used shoes the thread never cracks. Even the sole is breaking away before any thread rips. Just my 2 cents of real life observation.

[battlemunky]

See, there is no point in arguing it. It isn't an opinion. It is a fact that lockstitching is not as durable as saddle stitching. 

Again, you are presented with fact in the spirit of trying to educate you and you are completely unwilling to accept it for whatever reason. You wanted a competition to see who would win in durability. I gave you the competition by analysis and yet you still refuse to accept it.

I don't know what else can be done aside from setting aside multiple decades to monitor a lockstitched item vs a saddlestitched item of equivalent build and materials. If I had the time and inclination I'd do just this just so I could show you. I don't have that kind of time however so until you can prove otherwise with some analysis that is superior to the evidence I put forth above (and that an entire industry agrees on) I guess you can just continue to debate in spite of evidence to the contrary.

I really wish you'd stop asking for input if you aren't going to at least admit you know next to nothing and try a little harder. I only have a few years doing this but you are also being told the same thing I am telling you by hundreds of years of combined experience yet you do not yield. Being wrong and adhering to your point still is not charming or demonstrative of being resolute or something if that is what you are trying to go for.

[Johanna]

I don't like to edit posts and threads because i do believe we all have the right to our opinion, however we will not have with hate speech, threats or general trolling on the forum. There is some useful info in this thread, so I left it, but I did remove parts of it. If you see something offensive anywhere on the board, please hit the report button. Be part of the solution instead of the problem. Thank you for your cooperation!

[RusticLeatherShop]

All I have said till date stems from real life experiences in an pluricultural society outside the US.

I have checked close some worn Chelsea style boots and did only occasionally see an #69 to #92 thread be broke. Those are lock stitched with an machine. None of the #138 or #277 bonded nylon/polyester threads have broken on shoes who are about to fail their outer soles. The soles are indeed the first part of the shoe to fail (along with the cracked leather) and NOT the thread.

So for any smartphone case IMHO the thread will never be the issue nor is it relevant if its saddle stitched or lock stitched. Sewn by hand or machine I doubt is relevant. But some hand stitching people seem to rant others who are machine sewing (may envy play a role?).

But I learned from munkys picture what really a Saddle Stitch is, which I never knew before. Thanks Munky.

Saddle Stitching is then the tedious so behated handstitching we did in Church shops when I was a teenager. Taking up most of the time the so much cursed awl and needle difficult leather stitching. That's why I ordered the CB4500.

I guess I will be eternally thankfull I have bought the Cowboy 4500 in order to avoid the hand saddle stitching.

Overall the machine gives a better result than saddle stitching. If it ever unravels: restitch it again within 5 minutes.

Regards durability I stand by my point to be able to contest any day with my products with any other products on this very "mother earth".

Whats the point?!

Edited September 23, 2018 by RusticLeatherShop

[chrisash]

Reply to your Glue, Just by contact glue where you put a layer on both parts wait about 5-10 minutes until dry to touch and then place the two bits togethjer and lightly hammer the parts around the glued area

[RusticLeatherShop]

14 minutes ago, chrisash said:

Reply to your Glue, Just by contact glue where you put a layer on both parts wait about 5-10 minutes until dry to touch and then place the two bits togethjer and lightly hammer the parts around the glued area

Ok. So wood glue (it's white) or shoe sole glue (it's brown and some street boys use it to get high by sniffing it) will do it? Glue the leather parts first then sew them together. Then trim, sand and then glue the binder on. Then sew the binder. Is that correct?

[Northmount]

White wood glue in general is not contact cement and does not perform as well as contact cement during assembly.  Contact cement when properly applied and used, adheres upon contact.  Parts have to be placed accurately as you may not be able to separate the items again without damaging them.  There are lots of threads here about usage of various glues, also many resources on the web that you should review to better understand the types and usage.

Tom

[VabaX]

On 9/24/2018 at 6:34 AM, RusticLeatherShop said:

Ok. So wood glue (it's white) or shoe sole glue (it's brown and some street boys use it to get high by sniffing it) will do it? Glue the leather parts first then sew them together. Then trim, sand and then glue the binder on. Then sew the binder. Is that correct?

 

On 9/24/2018 at 7:56 AM, Northmount said:

White wood glue in general is not contact cement and does not perform as well as contact cement during assembly.  Contact cement when properly applied and used, adheres upon contact.  Parts have to be placed accurately as you may not be able to separate the items again without damaging them.  There are lots of threads here about usage of various glues, also many resources on the web that you should review to better understand the types and usage.

Tom

Eh, honestly, I've only ever used cheap wood glue purchased form the supermarket, and it's worked just fine. Once it's bonded, its strong enough that the glue bond doesnt break before the leather starts tearing apart. 

any glue that bonds strongly enough to have a higher tensile capacity than the actual leather is perfectly fine. The only differences from that point, as far as I see it (i'd welcome any other comments on the matter) is the properties regarding how it is applied and how it sands/burnishes (an area in which the wood glue is also fine; its sands right down once cured, no gooey gumminess, and has absolutely no impact on the burnish)

See for yourselves on my instagram, moreyatelier. my latest post is a billfold wallet with burnished edges, glued with $2 supermarket wood glue.

for what this guy needs (rusticleathershop) literally any glue would be better than what he does now

Edited September 24, 2018 by VabaX

[Northmount]

8 minutes ago, VabaX said:

Eh, honestly,

I never said that white wood glue (PVA) doesn't work.  If you re-read, I said it is not a contact cement.  Depends on how you want to glue things together.  If you have an item that is difficult to clamp until the glue is set, then contact cement is best suited as it grabs on contact.  I have used both, and still use both, but with different expectations and requirements.  I also use superglue on occasion and leather tape too.  Choice depends on what you are making and how it has to be assembled.  I made the assumption the shoe glue he is referring to is likely a type of contact cement, whether that is accurate or not.

Tom

[VabaX]

33 minutes ago, Northmount said:

I never said that white wood glue (PVA) doesn't work.  If you re-read, I said it is not a contact cement.  Depends on how you want to glue things together.  If you have an item that is difficult to clamp until the glue is set, then contact cement is best suited as it grabs on contact.  I have used both, and still use both, but with different expectations and requirements.  I also use superglue on occasion and leather tape too.  Choice depends on what you are making and how it has to be assembled.  I made the assumption the shoe glue he is referring to is likely a type of contact cement, whether that is accurate or not.

Tom

100% agreed.

Just with most aspects of leatherwork, there are as many ways of doing things as there are things to do. The main difference between those two glue types is, if you re-read, in how you must apply it, and seeing as Rustic here does not use glue at all currently, and stitches loose pieces together, I dont think that wood glue's lack of immediate bonding upon contact of workpieces is going to be a limiting factor in his (potential) use of same; It will still be lightyears better than the method he uses now.

If that's all he can get his hands on in Paraguay, then no big deal, imo

 

And Rustic, mate, if you absolutely must use a binder, theres no point in sewing twice. the glue will hold the pieces together while you trim and sand the edges of the leather, so you can then do one line of stitches to sew the binder and leather all together at the same time. I cant beleive im even 'recommending' anything involving the use of such webbing, but whatever, theres my 2c 

[Rockoboy]

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 7:53 AM, VabaX said:

I cant beleive im even 'recommending' anything involving the use of such webbing

Not my choice of edge finish, but if that's what he wants, it's his project. @VabaX As for your assessment of some different glue products, I use PVA and contact cement, and sometimes double sided tape. (I've never used superglue on leather, but I have it there, with the accelerator if I need a fast set-off).I agree with you, that it depends on the job, the person doing the job, what products are available and probably a few other variables

[RusticLeatherShop]

11 hours ago, Rockoboy said:

Not my choice of edge finish, but if that's what he wants, it's his project. @VabaX As for your assessment of some different glue products, I use PVA and contact cement, and sometimes double sided tape. (I've never used superglue on leather, but I have it there, with the accelerator if I need a fast set-off).I agree with you, that it depends on the job, the person doing the job, what products are available and probably a few other variables

Well the Thing is no binder is availlable here and this heavy Duty nylon webbing is cheaply availlable and very heavy Duty. We are here located in an rural area were the Equipment gets in touch with thorny, spiny bushed who Scratch ya up Pretty badly. I once carried an 6" Taurus revolver in an common cowboy style leather Holster and saw a huge Scratch over the finish (exposed metal for quick draw) after just carefully Walking through grasslands were bushes are growing. That made me want to enter the leather craft and so it grew on me to buy an Cowboy 4500 machine to make for myself utilitarian heavy Duty Holster WHO WORK.

So this binder is 1.15" Broad and thick nylon webbing which protects the edges. It may not be the prettiest but I assure you IT WILL HOLD UP TO ANY TASK. Nice burnished (or painted) edges look over here anyways bent and worn after a few months of use.

Suggestions I may glue the leather on I will follow in the future. After that I will trim it and sand it to round the edges off and make 'em smooth'. But not to sew that will be a compromise for durability since the sewing the leather in that stage will hide the thread below the afterwards attached binder. With the hidden sewing thread then piece is double strong and bushes will not be able to occasionally get onto the thread and ripping it. Applying the binder afterwards (with glue) and sewing it on, hides the thread below exposing only the binder thread to the Elements. I believe thats the way to go. I dont ever wanna skimp in materials (like thread or sewing time) just to save me 1 Yard of thread. Thread isnt that expensive as to make a weak piece. Not gonna jump in the chinese bandwaggon (producing less durable items).

[chrisash]

Have a look at Kydex its a man made material that is incredibly hard wearing and many make holsters out of it, you can either drill it for rivets or sew it with a 441 but will apparently well outlive leather, I have never used it but read some posts on this forum, you ac even heat it up and shape it to any form

[plinkercases]

12 minutes ago, chrisash said:

Have a look at Kydex its a man made material that is incredibly hard wearing and many make holsters out of it, you can either drill it for rivets or sew it with a 441 but will apparently well outlive leather, I have never used it but read some posts on this forum, you ac even heat it up and shape it to any form

Friends of mine who are ex military say that they disliked kydex as it was actually rather susceptible to prolonged direct sunlight and the heat and lost retention. Some lost side arms as a result. Mind you they were in Afghanistan but... that was his report on kydex. Given a choice they would take well made gunleather. 

Click (kydex and other plastics) versus squeak (leather) is an ongoing debate of personal preference and some technical performance and thus now we see more kydex leather hybrids with kydex where it properties are best and leather were leather is best.

I'm a squeak guy obviously.... am not of the tacti-cool taste camp but to each their own.

[battlemunky]

Yeah, I'd avoid Kydex due to the heat as well. I've had it loosen up on a knife just using it out on the trail. Also, if you take shortcuts with it, which we know is going to happen in this particular case, it won't work as intended. Kydex is supposed to work like a temporary clampy kinda material and if it isn't right and tight, which is about the only thing that has been demonstrated, it is just going to be a waste and then we'll all be called names and trying to critique more shoddy workmanship for naught. There is a learning curve and tooling needed and it doesn't help anyone get better using their sewing machine.

[RusticLeatherShop]

1 hour ago, chrisash said:

Have a look at Kydex its a man made material that is incredibly hard wearing and many make holsters out of it, you can either drill it for rivets or sew it with a 441 but will apparently well outlive leather, I have never used it but read some posts on this forum, you ac even heat it up and shape it to any form

Thanks charisa,

The idea of being able to heat it lets say with an hair dryer is a tempting idea since one can mold it precisely around the Corners and edges and mold it over. Then sew it on.

However if it's a Kind of plastic I fear it is suceptible to break.

But I have no experience with kydex and allways stayed away from it since it rubs against a weapon dulling it's finish. Would not know neighter if it's declassified for civilian use aside the Holster manufacturers (dunno if it's hard to come by). Over here I have not seen any kydex whatsoever.

But binding items with this Nylon webbing has be done for leather works.

[RusticLeatherShop]

1 hour ago, plinkercases said:

Friends of mine who are ex military say that they disliked kydex as it was actually rather susceptible to prolonged direct sunlight and the heat and lost retention. Some lost side arms as a result. Mind you they were in Afghanistan but... that was his report on kydex. Given a choice they would take well made gunleather. 

Click (kydex and other plastics) versus squeak (leather) is an ongoing debate of personal preference and some technical performance and thus now we see more kydex leather hybrids with kydex where it properties are best and leather were leather is best.

Interesting. So kydex is for sure not for here since 100 Degrees Farenheit are not uncommon for the Region I live in. Over here I have yet to see any Kydex Holsters but all is locally (nationally) made from leather. Locally made Holsters got thinner and thinner regards leather as well in order to Keep the same Price - for less "ooomph under the Hood".

31 minutes ago, battlemunky said:

Yeah, I'd avoid Kydex due to the heat as well. I've had it loosen up on a knife just using it out on the trail. Also, if you take shortcuts with it,

No, shortcuts are not gonna happen at least with RusticLeaderShop. I am know for not making compromises to Quality and durability.

Were I live 100 Degrees in the shaddow is not uncommon in summer. Leaving an leather Holster bound with kydex binding in the car exposed to sunlight may be enough to deform the kydex binder.

This is the stuff (Nylon webbing) I use for binding and it seems it's intended use is indeed binding. The one I use is only a Little broader being 1" to 1.15" broad. It's supposed to be used for binding leather. https://www.amazon.com/100-YARD-BINDING-WEBBING-HERRINGBONE/dp/B07B257P61/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537984172&sr=8-1&keywords=nylon+binding+webbing&dpID=51bdRx58%2BTL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Edited September 26, 2018 by RusticLeatherShop

[battlemunky]

27 minutes ago, RusticLeatherShop said:

No, shortcuts are not gonna happen at least with RusticLeaderShop. I am know for not making compromises to Quality and durability.

Uhm, dude, hate to let you in on this but it is LITERALLY  what everyone here has been trying to help you with. Literally.

[RusticLeatherShop]

2 hours ago, battlemunky said:

Uhm, dude, hate to let you in on this but it is LITERALLY  what everyone here has been trying to help you with.

Oh no you didnt!

 

[battlemunky]

Oh, it wasn't just me sir.

[plinkercases]

On a related topic:

I have learned that you can never make anyone change their mind until... they decide to change their mind.