Johny198

Crooked stitch on the other side of the leather

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Hello, I came for advice. When I stitch multiple layers of the leather (different thickness or skived edges) sometimes the stitches are crooked (see attached picture).

Before stitching I glue each layer of leather together, mark stitching lines a make holes with pricking iron. Can you please tell me where the problem is? Is it bad angle of pricking iro? Or should I use pricking iron separately on each layer and then somehow join in together? 

Thank you very much for your advice

 

Jan Kupka

Výstřižek.JPG

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Yep, bad angle with the iron. If you are using an awl you can aim for the scribe line on the exit side to help control that but its hard to do with the irons. You could always make a jig but even that isn't 100%. Multi layer is tough to keep straight when punching. A teensy bit off on the "in" side can be a huge distance away from the line on the "out" side. Similar to shooting.

Somebody else will come along shortly and let us both know a simple and efficient way to keep it from ever happening again.

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Yes, a very slight tipping of the angle can mean its punching the wrong place on the back side.

Two ways I have of dealing with this.

1. I usually like a stitching line front and back; not always a groove, sometimes just a line marked lightly

1a. draw the stitching line exactly the same distance on the front and back piece

1b. punch the stitching holes in the front piece only

1c. glue the pieces together, or use double sided tape

1d. use an awl to punch through from the front side through the rear piece, taking care to get each hole on the line you marked

1e. or use the stitching punch lightly to press through the front holes to mark the rear piece, check the marks are on the line, then make the holes

2. alternative; with these you still need to take care and they are limited to the stitch width, in these 2st per cm or about 6spi

5ba93ff3ed8db_Stitchingpliers01s.JPG.eed10c7a2fdf2d8d70001c6259d19162.JPG

You need to take care that both sets of teeth are on the marked line. Once aligned just a squeeze and 3 stitches [4 holes] are punched

I bought these for just under £10 (E11 or $13?) I have another pair to punch just two holes

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Hi fredk where do I get a pair of those pliers? I'm new to leather working

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2 hours ago, archerydude said:

Hi fredk where do I get a pair of those pliers? I'm new to leather working

A: Welcome to the dark arts of leather crafting

b:  I got them from China via ebay. I bought 4-teeth and 2-teeth but found that on the 2-teeth one the teeth weren't hardened and bent easily, so I bought a second 4-teeth and ground off the outer teeth to reduce it to a 2.

I've found the investment in these worthwhile. I can hold a project in my hand and punch sewing holes very quickly - and noiselessly, as I live in a flat and neighbours don't like me hammering late at night/early in the morning. Also I can easily do hole punching away from base.

Search thru the ebay sellers of these as they vary in price, also some of the sellers will post to the UK but not to N.I. so I don't look them ones out

example, a UK [China] seller: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4mm-Leather-Spacing-Stitching-Chisel-Hole-Punch-Piercing-Nipper-Plier-Craft-Tool-/163583212636?hash=item261651bc5c

Looks like about £14 is the price now. When Tandy sold these they were about £40 for one.   Also a larger tooth version is available for lacing work

 

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My answer is probably nothing you like to hear. 

I struggled a lot with the same problem, I couldn't find a good solution for stitching holes on wallets where I skived edges. Finally, I decided to learn how to use an awl.

It's actually quite easy if you have a sharp awl. And also I find it easier to open the holes with my awl before I start stitching. (Some people open the hole with their awl, stitch, open next hole and so on.) 

So when I do a wallet and stitch from the outside (Which side depends on where I have the largest contrast between leather and thread.)

I pre-punch outer leather all the way through before I glue to inner parts of the wallet. You get best results if you pre-punch both outer and inner parts before assemble (with the same iron /// which result in an X when assembled.) and stitch without a cast. If you would like to see examples of this you can check out Chestermox or Shiang_lifetime_leather_craft on Instagram, personally, I haven't used this method yet, but I have done some test pieces and it's a really good solution for thin leather if you want a nice result of both sides.  

Here you see an example where I pre-punched the outer leather before assemble. 

Skärmklipp.JPG

Edited by Danne

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3 hours ago, fredk said:

A: Welcome to the dark arts of leather crafting

b:  I got them from China via ebay. I bought 4-teeth and 2-teeth but found that on the 2-teeth one the teeth weren't hardened and bent easily, so I bought a second 4-teeth and ground off the outer teeth to reduce it to a 2.

I've found the investment in these worthwhile. I can hold a project in my hand and punch sewing holes very quickly - and noiselessly, as I live in a flat and neighbours don't like me hammering late at night/early in the morning. Also I can easily do hole punching away from base.

Search thru the ebay sellers of these as they vary in price, also some of the sellers will post to the UK but not to N.I. so I don't look them ones out

example, a UK [China] seller: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4mm-Leather-Spacing-Stitching-Chisel-Hole-Punch-Piercing-Nipper-Plier-Craft-Tool-/163583212636?hash=item261651bc5c

Looks like about £14 is the price now. When Tandy sold these they were about £40 for one.   Also a larger tooth version is available for lacing work

 

I've seen those nippers available with diamond-shaped teeth.

image.png

Edited by Tugadude
Added image

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2 hours ago, Tugadude said:

I've seen those nippers available with diamond-shaped teeth.

Perhaps it hard to tell in the photo but mine have diamond shaped teeth

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On 4/27/2019 at 11:36 AM, fredk said:

Perhaps it hard to tell in the photo but mine have diamond shaped teeth

You're right, they looked like straight teeth.  They come both ways for the lacing folks.  They come in handy for tight corners on turned bags I bet.

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On 4/27/2019 at 7:08 AM, Danne said:

My answer is probably nothing you like to hear. 

I struggled a lot with the same problem, I couldn't find a good solution for stitching holes on wallets where I skived edges. Finally, I decided to learn how to use an awl.

It's actually quite easy if you have a sharp awl. And also I find it easier to open the holes with my awl before I start stitching. (Some people open the hole with their awl, stitch, open next hole and so on.) 

So when I do a wallet and stitch from the outside (Which side depends on where I have the largest contrast between leather and thread.)

I pre-punch outer leather all the way through before I glue to inner parts of the wallet. You get best results if you pre-punch both outer and inner parts before assemble (with the same iron /// which result in an X when assembled.) and stitch without a cast. If you would like to see examples of this you can check out Chestermox or Shiang_lifetime_leather_craft on Instagram, personally, I haven't used this method yet, but I have done some test pieces and it's a really good solution for thin leather if you want a nice result of both sides.  

Here you see an example where I pre-punched the outer leather before assemble. 

Skärmklipp.JPG

Question, how do you line them up after your pre-punch both side separatly which result in an "X". if you pre-punch them a little off your marking then it is ruined since it is two separately piece. Or that "X" doesn't have to match perfectly when glue together? 

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8 hours ago, John11214 said:

Question, how do you line them up after your pre-punch both side separatly which result in an "X". if you pre-punch them a little off your marking then it is ruined since it is two separately piece. Or that "X" doesn't have to match perfectly when glue together? 

Since my experience is limited to smaller test pieces, I can't really answer your questions. When I did my test pieces, I was very careful to start punch from the same corners. The biggest reason I don't punch from both sides is that then I have to make all parts to exact dimension before gluing. I feel like I have better control when I can trim pieces after glue. 

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Have a look on YouTube for Nigel Armitage; he has started to do several videos on making pouches, and they are excellent. They show neat, precise working, including pre - pricking to get straight, even stitches. If you don't want to make pouches, the same techniques can be used for other items

'How to make pouches: 2  Round Flat' is simple and easy to follow, but they are all worth watching

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For something like a wallet or small pouch, I would cut and glue the pieces before punching (with a stitching chisel) the holes. That way, you will have your holes all lined up. Just be aware of the angle of the stitching chisel. It must be consistently vertical.

If the pieces are too thick for the stitching chisel, I assemble a couple of the layers with glue, punch those holes, then assemble the next layer(s) with double sided tape, punch thru to mark the last layers, remove those layers and punch from the front so the holes are all exactly aligned.

One idea I have not tried yet, but is on my horizon, after assembling all of the layers, use a 1mm drill bit in a drill press to get an accurate hole thru multiple layers. Then I can use an awl to enlarge the holes as required.

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3 minutes ago, Rockoboy said:

For something like a wallet or small pouch, I would cut and glue the pieces before punching (with a stitching chisel) the holes. That way, you will have your holes all lined up. Just be aware of the angle of the stitching chisel. It must be consistently vertical.

If the pieces are too thick for the stitching chisel, I assemble a couple of the layers with glue, punch those holes, then assemble the next layer(s) with double sided tape, punch thru to mark the last layers, remove those layers and punch from the front so the holes are all exactly aligned.

One idea I have not tried yet, but is on my horizon, after assembling all of the layers, use a 1mm drill bit in a drill press to get an accurate hole thru multiple layers. Then I can use an awl to enlarge the holes as required.

The downside with this is if you skived your edges, you are going to have a hard time punching your holes straight. Using an awl takes a bit of practice but in my opinion, something you have to learn if you do wallets. At least if you do slimmer wallets. A lot of people seem scared of their awl. With a sharp awl and some practice, it isn't that hard.

Edited by Danne

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7 minutes ago, Danne said:

if you skived your edges

I would usually skive or bevel my edges after assembly, stitching and cutting or sanding to final size and shape.

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1 minute ago, Rockoboy said:

I would usually skive or bevel my edges after assembly, stitching and cutting or sanding to final size and shape.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. 

Here is an example. The total thickness of leather layers is 3.5mm but the edges are around 2mm. So I'm talking about skiving all/most parts before assembling for a nice transition and a slim profile of the edges. Here I punch holes on the outer leather before assemble and go through with an awl. If I would use irons and go through the whole way, it would be very hard to do it straight.

 

 

Skärmklipp.JPG

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2 hours ago, Danne said:

I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. 

You are correct. My mistake. I guessed incorrectly, that you mistook skiving for bevelling.

If your edges once assembled are 2.0mm, you would be able to punch straight thru with a stitching chisel.

If the chisel is held at a consistent angle (usually 90 degrees to the work surface), and aligned with a stitching line on the top face of the work piece, both back and front stitches can only be straight. 

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19 minutes ago, Rockoboy said:

You are correct. My mistake. I guessed incorrectly, that you mistook skiving for bevelling.

If your edges once assembled are 2.0mm, you would be able to punch straight thru with a stitching chisel.

If the chisel is held at a consistent angle (usually 90 degrees to the work surface), and aligned with a stitching line on the top face of the work piece, both back and front stitches can only be straight. 

If your edge looks something like this, you are going to have a hard time without an awl.

stitch.thumb.JPG.716e28ba4c764fc1a8cb1d8acdf511e4.JPG

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I am definitely not an expert, but I don't believe you would skive from both sides as pictured, or if 2 or more layers were placed together, I don't see any job where this profile would be the result.

I will refrain from making any further comment on this issue, because it appears I know significantly less than many others.

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14 minutes ago, Rockoboy said:

I am definitely not an expert, but I don't believe you would skive from both sides as pictured, or if 2 or more layers were placed together, I don't see any job where this profile would be the result.

I will refrain from making any further comment on this issue, because it appears I know significantly less than many others.

Yes, it would be possible to punch from the inside out on the wallet I showed earlier.  Let's say the interior is orange and exterior black and I use orange thread, then I punch from outside. Also it's not uncommon you get the profile I showed you in my drawing. For example if you do a bifold with bill compartment and use softer leather outside. Here is an example. (Not mine it's from Chestermox) I'm not trying to be a wiseacre, just sharing my thoughts on this.

Another common product where it's hard to punch through without awl is a card case with pockets on both sides.

BifoldAlligator-726.jpg

 

 

Edited by Danne

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