Leather BS (aka nashville hustle)

[JLSleather]

Now tha's just flippin' funny.  Fat female foreigner in Nashville tonight, said she stopped by a 'craft show' with a bunch of stands. Just browsing.. she's a bit of a shopping junky.  Anyway, came across some hideous "journal" things in soft leather... wrinkled her nose at 'em and started off. But the gal selling them (at $40/ea) seemed determined to pitch her "all the work that goes into those" speech.  Tha's a mistake .. my wife knows $2.47 worth of leather when she sees it

Rough edges, sad stitching, and peddled to unsuspecting tourists along side a strip of leather with a snap they called "cuffs" (which were $20 more).

I see this type of junk every day, and apparently it sells well to the ignorant who want to be able to say "look what i got in nashville".  After Elvis died, not much cause for go to nashville...

[Stetson912]

I wish we had pictures of these things to laugh at haha. It's one thing to make something and try to sell it. Even if the quality isn't great but it's priced accordingly (maybe?).But to deliberately try and peddle some second rate crap and then try and convince everyone that it's great stuff is just sad and disgusting. 

[JLSleather]

Sometimes, I could swear Im SURROUNDED.  Just ACCIDENTALLY came across a video review of a different guy's holster.  Guy giving the "review" is impressed that the holster maker had the "forethought" to ask him if he is right or left handed, and the "forethought" (seems to like that word) to ask if he carried a mag with the bullets forward or backward.

Sorry... I don't call that "forethought" to ask that.  I would have called it ignorant to not ask that.  Seriously, anybody ever get an order for ONE holster and NOT ask if it's right or left handed?   That's like someone asking you to make a belt and not telling you the size - you have to be slow en la cabesa to NOT ask.

A few minutes along the video, the guy points out that he was NOT paid to do the video, no discount on the holster, etc... since he had been asked that before. 

 

[battlemunky]

Funny you bring this up @JLSleather, I was at a festival in TN yesterday and there were a few tables set up selling "genuine leather" stuff, a few belts and bracelets with some beads and metal placards with "belief" or "Faith" or "Love" or "journey" or what have you. They were asking $20.... All of it was clearly mass produced China made trash.

Up until then I was thinking about making stuff for the next year and then getting a spot at that festival but how do you compete with crap? I could make and sell real stuff for $20 that would blow that junk away. But by offering superior quality goods for the same price, I feel like that cheapens my work, while upping my price to account for the crap the other vendor is selling just feels wrong too. 

Am I seeing that right?

The leather market is odd. I don't even want to offer my stuff up for purchase there now if the vendors I'd be competing against for the $ would be selling Chinese junk for similar prices. Maybe I should just try it and see but it feels like I'd be selling myself and my stuff short somehow. 

[JLSleather]

You was in the right place!  Wife said they had a bunch of crap stamped "faith" and "believe" and other standard 'one hit' stamps.  She said they "must be doing well" since there were about 50 booths selling that type of thing.  But the GRIFT runs higher than that.. you can believe they paid a good bit just to have that spot on "sucker row' since the people running the show want their 'cut' too!

As for pricing mine or yours, I don't think it should have anything to do with the price on someone else's.  Next guy has "overhead" he/she rants has to be included. I've actually seen some (cutesy is full of them) who say their time is worth money, so they add $30 for driving the package to the post office   Hey, some guys "date" other guys.. so no telling WHAT people will come up with to justify what they do. None of it my concern

Last "show" I was at was years ago.  Set up a tent, tables, all that... laid out different types of goods, complete with a girlie there to take care of handbags and such.  Know the big sellers that week?  #1 was the hot dog stand.. non stop.  #2 was some gal selling old "repurposed" clay bricks stenciled with the Iowa State Cyclones logo for #10 each.. must have sold a flatbed full of 'em, and likely sued subsequently (yeah, they pretty dogged about defending that trademark, too).  Bottom line - some folk just out to shop, don't really care what they're buying.  And some don't really want ANYTHING, just want to be able to say they got it "remember our trip?"  

All those scams:

• Look at all the time and work went in to this
• It's "rustic"- it's SUPPOSED TO look like that (and if you was smarter, you should know that, of course)
• Well, you have to break it in first

and others, will go on as long as there are people not educated.  Which is why you see people EVERYWHERE staunchly trying to shut off any mention of the facts   "It took me a long time" could simply mean you're S L O W

SO, yeah - I wouldn't alter your pricing based on what somebody else does (or doesn't do).  

[battlemunky]

I may find a different festival to go to but I will price my stuff before I leave the house and hold to it regardless of competitors crap. If nothing else, people can see my wares and take a card for future business.

[JLSleather]

[OLDNSLOW]

in part that is why I am throwing in the towel hard to compete with cheep chit I never have and never will compromise what I feel I should charge.  I had a photography business forty years ago in the Los Angeles area doing weddings and always face the question of would I do it cheaper or if I would do it cheaper I could be their wedding photographer, and they always left looking for some one else.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

2 hours ago, JLSleather said:

  Know the big sellers that week?  #1 was the hot dog stand.. non stop. 

I have forever said that instead of trying to peddle leather goods at the trade shows, we ought to have a food booth!  Or beer, at the shows that offer that!

[chrisash]

FRom what I have seen there is loads of cheap Far East goods at silly money, but no way would i call them crap as they are very well made by mass production with low cost workers

I know I could never buy the leather for the money they charge but people are quite happy to buy them knowing they will only last 12-24 months and then need a new replacement, but then most of us by cheap underwear or socks, polo shirts, t-shirts knowing they will never last more than 12 months if that, they will also buy any cheap item, which is cheap only by comparing it against other home made items made by higher wage costs

Many home made items are more expensive because the makers dont export but just deal with the home market making their total market relitivly small so they cannot afford to invest into the most modern production methods

In England we were always brought up that british was best and in many cases it was true, but nowdays you cannot buy a british made aircraft and sheffield steel is now a tiny industry compared to what it was, andonly a tiny number of ships are made in Britain, I guess its the same in most first world countries

[JazzBass]

I FULLY understand the frustrations expressed here. If you think it's bad in the leather business, try the music business. There are countless hacks, frauds, and amateurs, that are actually ACCEPTED by much of the public as "good". Meanwhile, I'm expected to work for what I made 30 years ago - prices in the restaurants have risen steadily, while musicians are supposed to be happy with whatever they wish to pay . 

HOWEVER ---

Relative to "craft shows" and the like, you have one HUGE advantage - side by side comparison.
I've always believed that if what is routinely accepted as "good" is shown side by side with something that really is, that average people will see the difference. No, they can't say why it's good, but they'll certainly know which is better.

IMHO, the only thing to do is what you, yourself, can control. Do your best work, and price it accordingly.
Sure, we can joke about selling hot dogs, but it's hardly the labor of love that results in a high expression of art.
As hard as it is, try not to get wrapped up in either the amateurs who undercut you, or those who ask similar prices for inferior work. Don't let amateurs dictate how you run YOUR business. Believe in yourself, and the work that you do. No, it's never easy.

...or go buy that hot dog wagon

[JLSleather]

Actually, I wasn't complaining -- actually amused by teh thought that the wife really WAS listening at least part of the time  

Mexican fella came by a while back, wanted to buy an older phone I had advertised.  His buddy, who apparently gets by just fine without speaking any english at all, had a NICE belt on, so I commented on it.  Apparently, he and his friends can get men's sized belts IN MEXICO, tooled and beaded the entire length, for $5 US.    The tannage is different, but many just wont notice or particularly care.  Shoot, if it was $5 I'd wear that belt myself!  Nice belt, made by people content making next to nothing.  

Having said that, I can't work for that.  If, like this guy, I had someone to pay my rent, and cover any medical attention I might need, and any money I make goes straight to my pocket in the form of cash, then I guess I could do that too?  Then I could buy cell phones from americans who got new ones, put them on pay-for-minutes cards, travel back and forth across the border with my cousins bringing 15-20 of those belts over the border once every couple of weeks, to sell for (you guessed it) cash, pitch the phone if I start bringing too much attention ....

BUT, I'm not that guy.  But I AM the guy who thinks that if it's mine, that means I can charge as little or as much as I like.  YOu folks must be the same, since most never ask me what they should charge, I'm guessing you decided it's not up to me (and you'd be correct).

Personally, I'm naturally a sucker for the kids - so I have to watch myself a bit.  When we did those "shows' and "fairs", we would take 25-50 of those little key rings with us.  You know the ones.. little piece of leather with a tandy 3-d stamp, or an initial, folded over and riveted to a key ring.  See folks selling them for $5-10 each.  We GAVE them out... mostly to kids who just wanted to get SOMETHING at the fair - the little folks were happy to get something, the parents were happy the kids were happy, and I got no mustard on a handbag that I spent 8 hours on   Winning all around.  EXCEPT, sure enough --- there'd be that a@@ down the row mad as a wet cat cuz his best seller is being HANDED OUT by that bald guy ....  

I once advertised a "sale" on cutesy.. belts for the little ones.  Advertised as "childrens belts"... mad cheap.  Stamp some leather with a geometric stamp, add some dye or stain and a buckle... no big deal.  Not like full tooling or braiding, right?  Then I got people wanting $35 belts for their "kid", who has a 36" waist ..

But that's true even here. A few times I offered stuff for sale.  Idea was, you get a good something at a good price, and maybe you dodge buying a minimum amount, or it comes WITH something, etc.  But, always resulted in lowball "offers".. I mean lowball as in I would not have the NERVE to even make an offer like that. 

[JazzBass]

Free key fobs - Ah-HA! That's one way to get a little "revenge", and get people to look at your work, instead of the hack at the end of the aisle...I like it! LOL!

[JLSleather]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juNqfxhirBM

Tommy Boy covered this already

 

[NVLeatherWorx]

4 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juNqfxhirBM

Tommy Boy covered this already

 

And that just about sums it up.  Could not have made a better selection to drive this topic home.

[YinTx]

7 hours ago, JLSleather said:

"It took me a long time" could simply mean you're S L O W

I advertise this all the time.  I tell everyone that wants custom that "I am SLOW.  As in months."  So if you need it fast, I'm not your guy.  Only one guy didn't get that.  And I gave him his money back, no problem.  Usually, I don't take any money from anyone until I am done and they have it in their hands and they are happy.

What I don't advertise is that custom work is slow.  Some folks do custom fast.  What I mean is *I* am slow.  

YinTx

aka Slow Draw McGraw

[JLSleather]

I'll take slow over dishonest every time.  But you aren't describing "slow", you're talking about SCHEDULING.  I'm talking about those people who wait 4 weeks to do my order, then want to bill for me the 4 weeks

 

[OLDNSLOW]

22 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

I have forever said that instead of trying to peddle leather goods at the trade shows, we ought to have a food booth!  Or beer, at the shows that offer that!

were are from Cali the land of year round farmers markets or craft fairs and the bacon wrapped hot dogs are big sellers from the start to finish. and if one ended at noon and there was an evening one they would pack up and go to the next one, so you know those people were making bank

[YinTx]

On 10/14/2018 at 7:02 PM, JLSleather said:

I'll take slow over dishonest every time.  But you aren't describing "slow", you're talking about SCHEDULING.  I'm talking about those people who wait 4 weeks to do my order, then want to bill for me the 4 weeks

 

Hmm, yeah, gonna hafta be honest here, I'm just dang slow.   But, on the bright side, I don't charge for my pace.  In fact I tend to charge less based on my pace.  Makes em happy anyhow.  I agree on most of the stuff on this thread, I get frustrated with the low end stuff being sold for premium prices.  Had a guy try to sell me some Damascus knives, high end he says, only USA retailer from his custom supplier.  Alas, made in Pakistan.  He seemed to be doin good business selling 3 kitchen knives for $400.  But, somedays I just put my head down, damn the torpedos, ignore the bombs bursting left and right, and trudge ahead... at my slow pace.

YinTx

[ABHandmade]

@JLSleather

@battlemunky

Fully agree with you!

This is my favorite picture on this issue.
The inscription on it "There is always one who makes cheaper"

Hanging on the wall in my office

Edited October 23, 2018 by ABHandmade

[JLSleather]

4 hours ago, ABHandmade said:

Hanging on the wall in my office

 

I love it   Exactly what I mean.  Only thing missing is the story -- 

Does it translate correctly?

[ABHandmade]

1 hour ago, JLSleather said:

I love it   Exactly what I mean.  Only thing missing is the story -- 

Does it translate correctly?

"Это стоит дороже, потому что я делаю это долго!" 

This is the most accurate translation of "It costs more because I do it for a long time". 

PS. I like your addition to the picture

Edited October 23, 2018 by ABHandmade

[JLSleather]

On 10/23/2018 at 6:10 AM, ABHandmade said:

This is the most accurate translation of "It costs more because I do it for a long time". 

Then Google translate is pretty close!  I type in "it costs more because it takes time"  

All them boys (and girls) wanna charge by the hour .... I'm gonna pass on that   I seen a video this morning (well, fast forward thru one actually) that was over an hour covering roughly what I covered in a 3-page PDF (3 pages including pics).  Seem like a darn nice fella, too -- and at least he wasn't charging money for info that is freely available in other places. 

We've all seen that one, too -- guy come around HERE asking a bunch of questions, get free answers, then CHARGE the next guy for that same info.  But that's another grift in itself ...