Leather basics - understanding

[HondoMan]

I am in several Facebook groups for leather working in the UK and Germany (where I live).  There is one question that is posted most often:  'Hi everyone.  I'm new to leather work and I want to make a bag, wallet, knife sheath, etc., and I don't know what leather to use' or something similar to that.  We've all seen and read these.  Here in this forum as well.  More importantly, we've all been there!

Why is that?  I feel after doing some research, that no website or book exists that really breaks this down to assist the beginner.  So, they all end up doing what we did when we began.  Go back in time.  Do you recall the first piece of leather you bought for a project only to discover after giving up what little money you had, that is was not the correct leather?  I do!  Imagine the beginner who wants to make a wallet and orders 3mm (7-8oz) bridle leather, has no splitting machine most like, or the one who wants to make a knife sheath and orders chrome tanned leather or belly.

While there are feelings towards each type of leather (back, belly, sides, neck, shoulder) nothing is 100% off limits.  Except chrome.  I really dislike chrome.  Ok, not bad for a wee tobacco pouch.  But I refuse to use my good knives to cut it.

So, I am considering building a proper webpage that goes into depth on this to assist not just the beginner, but everyone.  To do that, I would like input from as many people as possible.

Johanna has a great post that, while 12 years old, has some great info and should be included (with her permission of course).

There is also the Tandy photo most of us have seen:




HewlpHelpful, but does not provide enough information for a beginner.  I can well imagine a beginner buying a piece of bridle leather thinking they can tool it with a swivel knife.

In the UK, there is Le Prevo that also assists in this endeavor, but again falls short.  http://www.leprevo.co.uk/hides.htm

There are, however, numerous books and websites that breakdown the sections of an animal (bend, shoulder, sides, belly, etc).  But falls short of indicating what each section is best for (project or item).  And therein is my goal.

With the information provided by Le Prevo, Johanna, Tandy and others, having a site where a beginner can look and make an intelligent determination on what leather to order from a tannery or shop.  Leaving it to the salesperson to determine for you is not wise, as we all know.  There will always be that one salesperson that might take advantage of a beginner and sell them the wrong leather, just to get it off their shelf.  99,99% of leather sales people are brilliant!  There's always that one odd duck.

Of course, if there is a tannery nearby or a proper shop, going there to learn is brilliant.  I live in a rather remote part of Germany at the foot of the alps.  While there are cows everywhere, no tanneries and no shops. 

I have never made a saddle, harness, bridle, etc.  I can't mostly due to German guild laws.  I also cannot make clothing.  So, my knowledge is centered on accessories - bags, wallets, belts, key fobs, armbands, knife sheaths, medieval and allgäu items, etc. 

So, what is needed?  What do you normally make from:

Belly:
Sides:
Neck:
Shoulder:
Croupon / Butt:
Back:

I, like most, don't care for belly.  However, I do make medieval belt-bags from belly.  The leather is very malleable and looks aged or used.  To better state this, if one was to make a biker wallet, what leather do you normally use?  Do you use butt for the outside and shoulder for the inside?  We are all different. 

Adding to this, we know that bridle and harness leathers are a tanning process.  As are russet, latigo, skirting. etc.  But let's break these down.  What do you normally use these for:

Bridle:
Harness:
Russet:
Latigo:
Skirting:
Tooling:

Others? 

I've little to no knowledge on russet, latigo and skirting.  I've never ordered them, so have no idea.  What are they best for and does anyone have knowledge on the tanning process of these?  The information on russet is inconsistent. 

Once I've gathered enough ideas and opinions on this, I'll build a webpage and have everyone look it over.  When done, I'll put it online. 

I appreciate everyone's willingness to participate in this.  When done, this might also be worthy of a permanent place in this forum.

Cheers!




 

[chrisash]

Sorry I think you are over stating the problem or even if there is a problem at all, there is so much basic information around for the beginner to use be it books or from stores like Tandy who have fantastic help video's and notes, just like anyone can spend under £50 and buy a leather kit of assorted parts on ebay to trial the hobby at low cost

That is all without including the fantastic help given by members of the Leather workers forum

[Matt S]

There's a lot of this information already out there. YouTube videos, books, magazine articles, forum posts, blog posts, talking with leatherworkers from all corners of the craft, greybeards at the (decent) leather shop... more knowledge than you can shake a loop stick at. Most of it for very little or no money.

[zuludog]

Yes, all that Matt and Chris have said, but don't forget books - remember them? Just go yo your local library and ask for a basic book on leather craft. Start with a key fob and work up from there

I've just Searched YouTube for 'choosing leather'; there are about 10 videos specifically on that. Plus there are many, many videos on other aspects of leatherwork. As you watch them, and those for specific projects or items,  you will get to know what leather to use  

Edited November 29, 2018 by zuludog

[HondoMan]

Seems this is non-starter.  The idea here is to provide a one-stop place for beginners where they can better make a decision on leather purchase.  A concise webpage where one can decide on the correct leather to project.  If we all went back in time, we'd do right to recall the frustration of sorting this out.

There are videos, books, magazines, etc.  But again, not concise. 

Not an issue?  Go to any FB group and read the comments and posts by beginners.  All are near the same.  The cannot work through the myriad of information to make an informed decision.

Well, seems I'll take another approach to this.

[chrisash]

I guess there is always room for another viewpoint , and yours may be a great one if new people will find it first, myself it took me a few months to find this forum but only a few min to find youtube on the subject and Tandy adverts

But good luck with the project all information is useful

[bermudahwin]

2 hours ago, HondoMan said:

Seems this is non-starter. 

I do not think this is a non starter, necessarily. We all have different experiences. I was making decorative metal work in 1976 when someone asked if I could do something similar on leather.

Innocence of youth... "yes, certainly" rapid learning curve, visit to D A Friends in Brighton, and a Tandy starter kit. Learned from there, via some huge mistakes.

No internet, no YouTube; just libraries and asking people.

That route could be replicated today (Tandy in Northampton for the kit, as Friends are not there now) but most people want faster results now.

You seem to want to create a new (easier to navigate) leather connection website, which was set up by Francis Burdett Mills, based mainly on his factory and teaching experiences.

Go for it!

But be aware that its a thankless tasks will you verify everything? What about falconry and bookbinding, etc.

It's a huge task.

For a subsciption from all users, it may be a career, but I cannot begin to envisage the time needed.

OR MAYBE just use forums such as this and the search box. I don't facebook, but it must be the same there.

Great idea, but are you reinventing the wheel?

 

[fredk]

There is no just right leather for anything. Thus to say 'you must use this leather for...' is wrong

There is the best leather for a certain project and unsuitable leather for a certain project; it depends on that project. I've made knife sheaths [to order] out of soft 1.1mm upholstery leather, I've used 2mm, 4mm and even 6mm leather for knife sheaths, each to order, so to say 'you must only use 3.5mm leather for a knife sheath' is wrong

If I'm asked by someone 'what leather should I use for this?'  I'll advise according to the use of the item and what  I  want from the item and its finish

Edited November 30, 2018 by fredk

[bermudahwin]

On 11/29/2018 at 8:00 AM, HondoMan said:

I have never made a saddle, harness, bridle, etc.  I can't mostly due to German guild laws.

I had not realised they were so restrictive, in most jurisdictions the saddler would be liable for faulty (materials, workmanship, design, fitting etc) but would seek the protection of the relevant liability insurance.

If you are prohibited by Guild this is very 1300's and may be knocked over by EU legislation allowing freedom to trade. What if someone else in the EU made saddles for someone in Germany?

All very intruiging.

Harry

[SilverForgeStudio]

6 hours ago, HondoMan said:

 

Most folks to gain a BASE understanding of a trade are required to put the time in- like apprenticeship programs... the minumim is 4,000 hours of contact and area time to be a "bottom of the barrell" journeyman machinist- successful Machinists, violinists... even "good" poker players will all tell you you need about 10,000 hours to really "compete" in the big leagues.

Fellowship is the basis for learning- if you want to learn from a group- you need to be a PART of that group. Ask for thoughts then TRY to do something and then ask about the results. I am in that category right now- I am doing what was suggested to start... and I will ask for feedback when I am done. 

<< The idea here is to provide a one-stop place for beginners where they can better make a decision on leather purchase.>>

There is NO one stop... to have one would be to generalize ALL aspects of why someone will get involved in leathercraft. 

<<A concise webpage where one can decide on the correct leather to project.  If we all went back in time, we'd do right to recall the frustration of sorting this out.>>

I'm pretty much an authority on "figuring it out" as I am a new guy- less than 6 months from ZERO knowledge starting this journey... Fine- you build the go-to hub on the net... I will enjoy the journey of this "learning" thing. Please do not forget- Informed is educated. And self-education is the foundation of all masters of any craft. 

<<There are videos, books, magazines, etc.  But again, not concise.>>

You learn a concept- that is generalized... you DO the concept on a project- that is application and education. Between the 2 think of them as a "deck of cards" if you will... the more concepts you know the bigger your deck... and when you pick a project- you can pull the concepts out of the deck that APPLY to your project... its a lifetime of learning, building, doing.

Speaking of "not concise" you can not UNDERSTAND the concepts until you DO the concepts. This is a hands-on craft. 

<<Go to any FB group and read the comments and posts by beginners.>>

They are NOT interested in learning. These folks want someone to spell it out- they are NOT interested in learning- just doing... You have to want to know the WHY you do something not just HOW to do something. Its not instant gratification "Look what I made" craft-time... ask them to do it again without the net, the cloud or on a trip without the phone/laptop or internet... and they can not. Etsy is full of these folks.

No thanks- part of the pride in making leather-work is the fact that I learned it. And I can do it again and again- I got help here by COMMUNICATING and INTERACTION... 

Harsh? No... reality. 

[Matt S]

I have little further to add to this topic other than what others have said quite clearly: there is no single or even a narrow range of leathers that is suitable for any particular job. Beginners guides are deliberately vague because they have to be -- their purpose is to give a basic starting point, and they cannot spoon-feed the exact answers because the answer varies in the circumstances.

I have seen the same phenomenon with beginners asking the same questions, usually ones that are already answered or can only be answered by themselves because of their individual circumstances, on forums, social groups and mailing lists on all sorts of topics, not just leatherwork. To date I can think of examples in the fields of blacksmithing, woodwork, bushcraft/camping, shooting, welding and canoeing where, as alluded to up the page, the beginners asking questions that only they can answer (beyond broad guidance and individual example) are generally the ones who want to walk before they can run.

[ScoobyNewbie]

If you want to do this, then do it. There will always be problems and issues and tigers to be aware of. I think this is a good idea. Follow your bliss.

Bellys and skirting 9-10oz, are good for corsets. Belly’s will stretch a bit. Put skirting where you want firm support.

Personally I think 2-3oz or 3-4 oz at the most for wallets. Thin but stiffish. Wallet liners, mission grain, glazed pig liner or another 1-2oz piece to give firmness for card pockets and bill pockets.

Oil tanned utility sides, 5-6 oz worked very well for a tricorn hat. Sewed like a dream.

2-3oz sheep skin veggie tan made a nice flat cap, although I would have gone for a more malleable, less stiff hide if I had known then what I know now. The seams show the stitching in some places. 

‘Don’t use variegated thread, no matter how much it calls to you, unless you are willing for people to see it peeking out of spread seams. 

Garment weight lambskin makes lovely warm hats and mittens. I’m not brave enough yet to do gloves. Soon. 

‘For belts I like 6-8oz, because I haven’t seen two smaller thickness’ together yet. 

Gum tragicanth is a lovely sealer, easy enough to use, just be sure to press hard enough with your burnisher, or it will come out cracked and patchy instead of smooth and soft. Use it after you dye or stain. It is a resist. It stops dye from soaking in.

Buff after dye or stain. Buff, buff, buff. Then buff some more. Because if your buffing cloth isn’t clean, you’ll buff the excess dye off with you’re silk blouse, or white jeans, or couch.

I hope this helps. And remember, it’s mostly personal opinion, no one is in charge of your project except YOU.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by ScoobyNewbie

[rodneywt1180b]

I think it's a good idea.  I'm one of those beginners who has ordered the wrong leather.  When I started I didn't know the differences between different leathers, in fact I'm still learning.  Pretty doesn't necessarily mean it's right for the project.

I do think it's a huge undertaking.  Be prepared for it to take some serious time.

[Rockoboy]

Once a person has decided on the right thickness of leather they want for their project, they need to bear in mind the type of leather. A 1.2mm veg tan cow hide leather is very different to the same thickness goat or pig or kangaroo skin. Would a thinner section of goat skin do the job, or a thicker section of ostrich skin give a better appearance and still be good for purpose?

There are so many questions, and each question has multiple answers that might be correct given different circumstances.

I think the OP has a good idea, but "How will people find the veritable font of all knowledge?" Anybody with any of these questions can already answer their own questions (the answers have already been given somewhere), but people do not know the questions when they start on their quest, so finding the answers is almost impossible at the outset. With experience come the knowledge of what they do not know. IMHO.

[Riem]

Coming back to this post - a bit late. What the OP is essentially asking for is a shortcut and the intrinsic, unstated "rules-of-thumb" accomplished leather workers follow when they select leather for a project. Viewed from a different angle, this is a classic knowledge management problem - how to make highly tacit knowledge explicit? Not an easy thing, especially if you consider that very few people can ever tell you what exactly what they know, because knowledge is fragmented and we only know what we need to know when we need to apply that knowledge to a real world problem. Essentially, knowledge can only be volunteered by a craftsman or accomplished performer when s/he needs to solve a real world problem; knowledge cannot be conscripted.

Is there an easy answer to the OP's need? Given the complexity of the craft, and the myriad of factoids that a craftsman stitches together to make decisions, the answer is simply: no. There are too many permutations to have a single, simple approach.

My late 0.2c

[LetterT]

As much as the specifics can be elusive surely there are some basic guidelines or rules of thumb that are to be followed.

They may be as simple and as broad as "In hand tooling we use only veg tan leather" but they are still there.

[Rockoboy]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:58 PM, LetterT said:

They may be as simple and as broad as "In hand tooling we use only veg tan leather" but they are still there.

I agree with this approach, but is it going to basic for what the OP was suggesting?

The photo attached to the original post by @HondoMan is about where I believe a good starting point is. After this information is digested, there becomes a many-headed-monster that bends, twists and changes direction depending on the leatherworker. In fact, as each question is answered, there are sometimes many more opinions, ideas and strategies opened up for discussion. In short, the whole idea becomes so difficult to define, so making what began as a reasonable task, an insurmountable chore IMHO.

The best analogy I can give is "Listen a lot, ask some question, practice what you wish to become good at. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen, if you stick at it". There is no way to put all the knowledge of experience into a inexperienced head.

[rodneywt1180b]

I think an entire book (maybe series of books) could be written on the subject and still not cover everything. 

A general guide about different broad categories of leather and their common uses and properties would be a good starting point though.  It would save at least a few beginners some grief and cash.