Need some serious helps on buying a leather sewing machine

[shantiandd]

Hello everyone.

First of all, English is not my native language. I apologize for any spelling and grammar mistakes on this post. : ) 

To give some background, I am from China, and currently planning to start my own studio selling leathergoods I design.

I make mostly, leather bags/totes/wallets.... I also combine different materials with leather, such as heavy canvas. I use both vegetable tanned leather and chrome tanned leather. The thickness I work with is generally under 6mm. (mostly 4mm-2 layer of 4-5oz leather). Occasionally, I may go up to 8mm.  

Sewing by hands takes too much time, so I finally decide to invest on my first leather sewing machine!  I have never used a cylinder-bed industrial sewing machine before, so this will be my first industrial sewing machine.

 

I have asked several people. They all recommended Adler and Juki to me, so I had my eyes on Adler 669 and Juki 246/1341. 

I also have talked with some local dealer.  The prices are:

- Adler 669 Eco- Around 37000 RMB/5300 USD.  

- Japan made Juki 246/1341 around 17500 RMB/2500 USD  

- China made Juki 246/1341 around 4000 RMB/600USD 

- China made  PFAFF 335 Around 10000RMB / 1500USD.  (The dealer said Pfaff has their own factory in China, which is why the price is low. )

They all come as brand new machines. The prices are quite different...

 

I am taking this leathercraft career very seriously. So if the machine is really really worth to buy. I could afford to purchase an Adler 669. (I was almost about to settle with this one after hearing and reading all the good things on the machine. ) 

However, the dealer told me that there is not much difference between a PAFFA 335 and Alder 669. The reason why Alder gets so much fame is due to the fact that a lot of luxury brands are using this type of machine. (I am a little bit skeptical on this.)

If that is true, I definitely will go for a Paffa 335 instead. 

 

You guys are more knowledgeable than me.  I really need some honest opinions on deciding the machine. (For example, Macbook is a lot more expensive than other computers, but after I use it, I don't ever want to switch to another laptop. I don't know if the differences in the sewing machine world could be that significant though.)

Thank you for reading!

[arz]

Hello! We recently bought a used Adler 69 after hand sewing for many years. We make similar items.

The Adler 669 is on a class of it's own compared to the Juki 346 or Pfaff 335. As far as I know, there is not another machine like it. Is it worth the extra money? Only you can tell. If I had the money I would order one today   However, from a business viewpoint, I could buy 2 good machines for the price of 1 Adler 669. Hard decision.

Some of the advantages of the Adler 669:
1. Very large bobbin
2. 20mm Foot lift height (compared to about 12-16mm on the Pfaff 335 or Juki 246)
3. Full motion, adjustable feed dog. The feed dog moves up and down and not just side to side. This will help feed material over thick seams etc. The Juki 246 does have full motion feed also I believe.
4. Possible to change over to binding if you want. Not sure how quick this is though.
5. Long stitch length 9mm (compared to 5-6mm on others).
6. Very good at climbing over large seams etc.
7. Narrow arm, but can still use m15 thread. Very nice when making small bags etc.

That is just a few of the quick things I can think of. I am far from an expert. I am sure others here can give you much more info.

Looks like you will get a very nice machine no matter which you buy!

-Adam
 

One other thing: The Juki 1341/1342 are very very nice also. If the larger diameter arm is not a problem for you...

Edited December 20, 2018 by arz

[chrisash]

Do you really need a Cylinder machine is the first question, whilst they can be versatile for some uses, they have no real advantage if you are only sewing flat items

Wiz has a great post here on  what to look for Adler are great machines but so are the lower cost ones, just look at the 100 year old machines owned by experts on this forum, the job is quite basic for leatherwork a simple lockstitch, so it may be worth looking around to see what else fits your requirements and that may include two machines one for thin and one for thick as there is no machine that handles both sizes well, also consider support

 

 

[kgg]

You have selected some nice machines to choose from. The questions I have would be dealer support / warranty,  cost of accessories like binder attachments / feet / etc and the cost of repair / maintenance parts after warranty. Here Alder and Pfaff are expensive to purchase / maintain with little support where as Juki are more common with access to a lot more after market parts / accessories.

If money was no object I still would have a hard time justifying the purchase of the Alder no matter how good. I would be asking is the Alder anywhere from twice or ten times as good as the other machines. Hell if you bought the Juki made in China you could replace it every year for the next 9 years with warranty. That is assuming it is a Juki not a Juki clone.

I would suggest going to a Juki dealer with a sample of material and compare the quality of the Juki machines from Japan and China as they seem to be moving more of their construction of machines to China. When I was looking to purchase a new machine some of the Juki clone machines sounded like a bucket of bolts banging around in comparison to the real Juki.

kgg 

[shantiandd]

4 hours ago, arz said:

Hello! We recently bought a used Adler 69 after hand sewing for many years. We make similar items.

The Adler 669 is on a class of it's own compared to the Juki 346 or Pfaff 335. As far as I know, there is not another machine like it. Is it worth the extra money? Only you can tell. If I had the money I would order one today   However, from a business viewpoint, I could buy 2 good machines for the price of 1 Adler 669. Hard decision.

Some of the advantages of the Adler 669:
1. Very large bobbin
2. 20mm Foot lift height (compared to about 12-16mm on the Pfaff 335 or Juki 246)
3. Full motion, adjustable feed dog. The feed dog moves up and down and not just side to side. This will help feed material over thick seams etc. The Juki 246 does have full motion feed also I believe.
4. Possible to change over to binding if you want. Not sure how quick this is though.
5. Long stitch length 9mm (compared to 5-6mm on others).
6. Very good at climbing over large seams etc.
7. Narrow arm, but can still use m15 thread. Very nice when making small bags etc.

That is just a few of the quick things I can think of. I am far from an expert. I am sure others here can give you much more info.

Looks like you will get a very nice machine no matter which you buy!

-Adam
 

One other thing: The Juki 1341/1342 are very very nice also. If the larger diameter arm is not a problem for you...

Hello Adam,

 

Thank you for sharing the thoughts!

Yes, I think we make similar items and I also read your post on the sewing machines  :-)!

 

The dealer said something similar. He suggested me to purchase a Pfaff 335 with another flat walking foot sewing machine instead of buying an Adler 669.

That does sound super appealing and pulling me away from an Adler 669.

 

Also, thank you for listing those points! They are very helpful. I think your 3rd and 7th points are very important to me.

 

For Juki 246, the dealer told me that the machine works well with leather thickness under 5mm.  Juki 1341 could take a little bit more on the thickness. Unfortunately, I don’t like its larger diameter arm :(. It adds some limitation on the designs.

 

Do you know if Adler 669 work well with thick vegetable tanned leather?

Holly

Edited December 20, 2018 by shantiandd

[shantiandd]

2 hours ago, chrisash said:

Do you really need a Cylinder machine is the first question, whilst they can be versatile for some uses, they have no real advantage if you are only sewing flat items

Wiz has a great post here on  what to look for Adler are great machines but so are the lower cost ones, just look at the 100 year old machines owned by experts on this forum, the job is quite basic for leatherwork a simple lockstitch, so it may be worth looking around to see what else fits your requirements and that may include two machines one for thin and one for thick as there is no machine that handles both sizes well, also consider support

 

 

Hi there,

 

Thank you for sharing the post!

Yes, some of the bag designs do require a cylinder machine to do the job.

Umm, I understood your point. It is too much to ask one machine to do all the jobs. I am also thinking to invest more machines in the future (when the affordability is not a problem.)

But for now, I want to start with a machine that could be more flexible to work with.

If purchasing two different machines, do you have any suggested model I should look into?

Holly 

2 hours ago, kgg said:

You have selected some nice machines to choose from. The questions I have would be dealer support / warranty,  cost of accessories like binder attachments / feet / etc and the cost of repair / maintenance parts after warranty. Here Alder and Pfaff are expensive to purchase / maintain with little support where as Juki are more common with access to a lot more after market parts / accessories.

If money was no object I still would have a hard time justifying the purchase of the Alder no matter how good. I would be asking is the Alder anywhere from twice or ten times as good as the other machines. Hell if you bought the Juki made in China you could replace it every year for the next 9 years with warranty. That is assuming it is a Juki not a Juki clone.

I would suggest going to a Juki dealer with a sample of material and compare the quality of the Juki machines from Japan and China as they seem to be moving more of their construction of machines to China. When I was looking to purchase a new machine some of the Juki clone machines sounded like a bucket of bolts banging around in comparison to the real Juki.

kgg 

Hello Kgg,

 

Thank you for answering,

Yes, you made great points!

In my country, Juki, Alder and Pfaff are the most common industrial sewing machine brands here, comparing to Cowboy/Seiko etc.

 

Those three brands, they all have their sell agents/ branches here. (Juki is more popular and common than the other two. )

The basic accessories are not very expensive as long as they are not imported. Also, some models’ accessories are easier to find than the others.

 

The warranty part is a problem….

I couldn’t find a dealer on my city ..  Those dealers all told me that if the machine has any problems, they could provide tech support through video or phone call…or sending some parts to me to repair.

If I am willing to pay for the cost of traveling, they can send someone to help me fix the machine….. So..basically, if the machines present a huge issue, I am on my own.  :(( The downside of living in a small town.

 

And yes I am also questioning if an Adler 669 is really worth to buy taking the fact that the price is 4 to 10 times more expensive than the others. I haven’t had the chance to use any of those machines, so it is so difficult to compare. 

[kgg]

Since you are a distance away from any industrial sewing machine dealers a couple of points to consider:

1. Are there any sewing machine repair shops fairly close to you that repair industrial sewing machines? If so visit them and bring a sample of what you are planning on sewing and ask them for some advise. They will be able to tell what is common equipment in your area that they have experience with and maybe a good future repair resource. Also they may have a good used machine as well.

2. If the distance isn't to great to a dealer plan on a visit, once again bring a sample. Treat this as a part of your investment as you are planning on spending a lot of dollars to get the right equipment.

3. Check with multi dealers as there can be a substantial dollar difference between dealers of the same machine. For me there was approximately $1000 difference even through there was a dealer an hour away, I drove 4.5 hours each way.

4. Demand that the machine be sewn off and that sample to be included with the machine. This will help with not just getting a machine fresh out of the factory but a machine that someone had to set up, thread and sew on.

kgg

 

[arz]

1 hour ago, shantiandd said:

For Juki 246, the dealer told me that the machine works well with leather thickness under 5mm.  Juki 1341 could take a little bit more on the thickness. Unfortunately, I don’t like its larger diameter arm :(. It adds some limitation on the designs.

 

Do you know if Adler 669 work well with thick vegetable tanned leather?

Holly

We use a Adler 69, which is the older (much older!) version of the 669. We can easily sew 6mm of Italian vegtan (Tempesti, Minerva Box), and even Sedgwick lacing hides. The most I could sew with mine is about 7-8mm (not something I would recommend). A pfaff 335 or Juki 346 can sew the same thickness. We use M20 thread and a 140 LR needle.

The 669 is an entirely different machine! It can easily sew 8mm of vegtan using 138 (M20) thread. So yes the 669 can handle vegtan. If you need to sew more than 10-11mm you would probably need a larger machine.

-Adam

Edited December 20, 2018 by arz

[R8R]

I do mostly heavy duty nylons and some leather trims. I mostly use my Juki 2810.

I shopped for a Juki 246, new price at my local dealer was $4600 USD. I ended up ordering a clone, which was a nightmare. (returned it)

I found a Mauser (Pfaff) 335 locally and while it works great for small projects, it is in no way suited for heavy sewing. It is best suited to thinner assemblies and small articles.

I have a Adler 669 on order, it was about the same price as the Juki 246. I will be posting a full review here on LW once it arrives. It has a similar capacity to the 2810 but with a small diameter cylinder arm, which should make it perfect for my needs.

 

[shantiandd]

8 hours ago, kgg said:

 

4. Demand that the machine be sewn off and that sample to be included with the machine. This will help with not just getting a machine fresh out of the factory but a machine that someone had to set up, thread and sew on.

kgg

 

1

Hi Kgg,

WOW，I’ve never thought of those! thank you for the advice!

I will do some search today within my city.

Yes, I definitely plan to visit the dealers, but the dealers spoke vaguely when I ask them for the address. Only one of them gave me a clear company address. Instead of visiting the dealers, should I just go to some leather sewing factories?

8 hours ago, arz said:

The 669 is an entirely different machine! It can easily sew 8mm of vegtan using 138 (M20) thread. So yes the 669 can handle vegtan. If you need to sew more than 10-11mm you would probably need a larger machine.

-Adam

2

Hi Adam,

Great information to know! As long as the machine accept 8mm Veg tan leather in thickness, I think I will be good to go.  Also, hand sewing is an option if the thickness goes above 8mm.  But I am not sure if a Pfaff 335 could handle easily 8mm thick leather layers, the dealer is quite vague when I asked.

I have another question for you.. haha sorry for too many questions.

Do you have any idea what a pneumatic foot system is? (I don’t know if I translate it correctly) One of the Adler dealers told me that if I allow them to replace this system with something regular, the price for an Adler 669 could reduce about 10000RMB/1500USD, which is a significant drop. If you have information on this, that will be fantastic!

2 hours ago, R8R said:

I have a Adler 669 on order, it was about the same price as the Juki 246. I will be posting a full review here on LW once it arrives. It has a similar capacity to the 2810 but with a small diameter cylinder arm, which should make it perfect for my needs.

 

1

Hi there,

 

OH, YEeeeS! I am so excited about the Alder 669 review because there is nowhere else to find such review.  Is it going to happen any time soon? Haha, maybe I should wait for your review instead of rushing to buy a machine. :)))

I am also afraid to order something that ends up giving me a lot of headaches, especially considering that I have no experience on such machine.  I have been saving for the past year. I am willing to be broken for this machine, but it is very important to know if it is really worth that much.

Edited December 21, 2018 by shantiandd

[Wizcrafts]

Have you contacted Cowboysew/Hightex Sewing company yet (links to Chinese language version)? They are located in Zhejiang, China. Many of us in the USA, UK, Canada and Australia use their machines on a daily basis.

[shantiandd]

12 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Cowboysew/Hightex Sewing company

WOW, Thank you for the link! I had no idea Cowboy has their sell agent here. Will definitely look into it! Do you have any recommendation on the model? （Maybe 7335 and CB6900 from what I read ）

[Wizcrafts]

21 minutes ago, shantiandd said:

WOW, Thank you for the link! I had no idea Cowboy has their sell agent here. Will definitely look into it! Do you have any recommendation on the model? （Maybe 7335 and CB6900 from what I read ）

I am confident that they have representatives and sales people capable of answering your questions. For instance, Junwu Jiang is a Cowboysew/Hightex rep on Facebook. He is multi-lingual and lives in China.

[kgg]

Like Wizcraft suggested make contact with the Cowboy/Hightex rep. If you have leather factories near you it definitely would be worth a visit. It may give you some other ideas. Keep in mind that they probably have someone on staff to make any necessary repairs and those machines are going to be used all day, every day until they can no longer be repaired. 

kgg

[R8R]

5 hours ago, shantiandd said:

I am also afraid to order something that ends up giving me a lot of headaches, especially considering that I have no experience on such machine.  

Uh....This is industrial sewing...until you've put in the time and have dealt with the learning curve, keep a bottle of aspirin handy.

[shantiandd]

1 hour ago, R8R said:

Uh....This is industrial sewing...until you've put in the time and have dealt with the learning curve, keep a bottle of aspirin handy.

Yes, I understand that. I have learnt to use a flat industrial sewing machine(not cylinder); learning is something I am excited about.  

[arz]

7 hours ago, shantiandd said:

But I am not sure if a Pfaff 335 could handle easily 8mm thick leather layers, the dealer is quite vague when I asked.

I have another question for you.. haha sorry for too many questions.

Do you have any idea what a pneumatic foot system is? (I don’t know if I translate it correctly) One of the Adler dealers told me that if I allow them to replace this system with something regular, the price for an Adler 669 could reduce about 10000RMB/1500USD, which is a significant drop. If you have information on this, that will be fantastic!

I do not think the Pfaff 335 can handle 8mm easily....You need a larger machine if you think you will be sewing 6+ mm.

The Adler 669 comes in at lest four variations:
1. ECO. No auto features. The foot is raised using a knee lever or hand.
2. CLASSIC. This has basic auto features such as back-tack etc. It also has a pneumatic foot lift. This uses a small amount of air presser from a compressor to lift the foot. These features are very nice if you are doing higher volume. 
3. GOLDLINE (I think it is called this). This has even more auto/computer features
4. PREMIUM. Direct drive servo motor, fancy computer etc.

If you get the ECO, I would make sure you buy it with a Servo motor. It is a very good motor and will help greatly. I think for your use the ECO with servo would be a good machine.

The price for me in the EU, for the basic 669 ECO with servo motor, and edge guide and LED light is about $4700 (4050 Euro), including VAT.

Edited December 21, 2018 by arz

[dikman]

The newer 335's should handle 8mm (probably up to 10mm, maybe a bit more), the older models are limited to about 6mm (although if tweaked a bit it's possible to fit about 9mm under the foot).

[arz]

3 hours ago, dikman said:

The newer 335's should handle 8mm (probably up to 10mm, maybe a bit more), the older models are limited to about 6mm (although if tweaked a bit it's possible to fit about 9mm under the foot).

Good to know! My Adler 69 can fit about 7-8mm under the foot. I did sew 7mm with it. I didn't realize the new Pfaff 335 could sew that thick...

[Lobo]

43 years in the leather business, of which I spent nearly 30 years hand-stitching. I started with a very basic machine, which I soon learned would not hold up to production work for my products. I then purchased another machine, which did a pretty good job, but was under strain at times with heavier work. I ended up purchasing a couple of very heavy duty machines of the type commonly used by saddle makers.

Best advice I can offer is to purchase more machine than you think you will need. That way you will never strain the machine in use, each task will be handled with less time and effort, and you will probably never wear your machine out in use.

[shantiandd]

17 hours ago, arz said:

 

If you get the ECO, I would make sure you buy it with a Servo motor. It is a very good motor and will help greatly. I think for your use the ECO with servo would be a good machine.

The price for me in the EU, for the basic 669 ECO with servo motor, and edge guide and LED light is about $4700 (4050 Euro), including VAT.

 

Hi Adam,

Wonderful! Those are great to know!

I have reached out to a couple different dealers.

Here,

1.669 Eco with a China-made servo motor and LED light costs about 29000 RMB/4200 USD. 

2.669 Eco with a pneumatic food lift + servo motor +LED  costs about 31000RMB/4500 USD

3.669 Eco with a computer features plus all above is about 37000RMB/5300USD

4.669 GOLDLINE computer feature + auto system is about 43000 RMB/ 6200USD

669Goldline is certainly out of my options. If going for the alder 669, I am leaning toward 1st and 2nd options, which will allow me to save some to invest in the next machine.  Right now, It is still a struggle for me to decide which machine I should go for. Personally, I consider myself to hold a high standard on the preciseness of the works. I have seen the stitches line alder 669 could do, even and beautiful, but maybe it only depends on who is using it. haha

I will visit several sewing machines factories outside my city next week. If they allow me to try some of the machines, that will help me to make the final decision.  Thank you for helping! and BTW, I had the chance to check out the works! You guys make beautiful projects.

 

 

 

[shantiandd]

8 hours ago, Lobo said:

43 years in the leather business, of which I spent nearly 30 years hand-stitching. I started with a very basic machine, which I soon learned would not hold up to production work for my products. I then purchased another machine, which did a pretty good job, but was under strain at times with heavier work. I ended up purchasing a couple of very heavy duty machines of the type commonly used by saddle makers.

Best advice I can offer is to purchase more machine than you think you will need. That way you will never strain the machine in use, each task will be handled with less time and effort, and you will probably never wear your machine out in use.

2

Good point! Thank you for the advice!  Will take it into my consideration. 

[dikman]

I think 1 or 2 would be the best options (do you really need a pneumatic lift?), while a computer unit might be good in a factory environment for home use it will be great - until something goes wrong! You could be without a machine for a while and it could cost $$$ to repair. For what most of us do a simple mechanical machine makes more sense.

[shantiandd]

2 hours ago, dikman said:

I think 1 or 2 would be the best options (do you really need a pneumatic lift?), while a computer unit might be good in a factory environment for home use it will be great - until something goes wrong! You could be without a machine for a while and it could cost $$$ to repair. For what most of us do a simple mechanical machine makes more sense.

You are right! If I decide to get an alder 669, I won't add the computer feature. It is not necessary and also too delicate to have. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by shantiandd

[R8R]

21 hours ago, dikman said:

The newer 335's should handle 8mm (probably up to 10mm, maybe a bit more), the older models are limited to about 6mm (although if tweaked a bit it's possible to fit about 9mm under the foot).

Nope. I mean, maybe? Occasionally? It doesn't climb well. It doesn't climb at all really. 

It's great for small items. Purses, slippers, makeup bags, wallets, small cylindrical items, etc. It doesn't like thick assemblies.